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Post by rita on Mar 11, 2006 16:59:17 GMT -5
The kidnap case evidence relating to day of kidnap is completely contrary to a real kidnap. All evidence points to it not happening at the time stated. All family and employee statements are misleading and supportive of an OSS cover story, and a real solution is more Likely related to CAL's activity with the OSS. The only complete explanation that does not go through contorted reasoning and plots has the Rockefeller Foundation Consorting with Dr. Carrell and Lindbergh, in order to prime them for future covert operations within occupied Europe in a possible war with Germany.
I believe the child was hidden within the house until the first safe opportunity to remove him which was obviously the day the thumb guard was found in the drive. The child being confined to a room not generally accessible to common walkways, was excited at being taken for a car ride causing him to playfully run and jump losing the thumb guard.
Nosovitsky prepared counterfeit mark note plates for the OSS story which had the purpose of endearing the Nazi's to Lindbergh by liberating the plates from Americans. Dr Carrell was put to work with Linbergh at the Rockeffeler Foundation on the heart pump project that the Nazi's wanted their research on. Dr Carrell went to France which was promptly occupied, and CAL was given the opportunity to own a mansion on a nearby unoccupied island allowing for the ease of interchange of research that benefited the Nazi's, and at the same time retrieving secrets for the OSS. Near the end of the war German troops ransacked the Lindbergh island mansion when they realized he had been a double agent who gave away their secrets.
The unknown here is only what happened to or where CAL J. is, and why the obvious hoax was needed? One reason given by CAL himself, is that he wanted get away from a (an OSS excuse) degenerate America, that killed his son, and convicted an innocent German. The body that no one could identify, or even wanted to see, was not that of CAL Jr. and that CAL Jr. either went to England or was adopted by family or friend.
Dr. Carrell would have been tried and convicted in France, but was so valuable to the OSS was given a fake death story, with Lindbergh and Carrel now opperating on opposite sides, with CAL in occupied Germany under assumed names with families, and Carrell back at a heavily guarded Rockeffeler Foundation Research Center.
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Post by Michael on Mar 12, 2006 10:34:22 GMT -5
How do we get past "Wild" Bill Donovan's public reprimand of Lindbergh's activities?
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Post by rita on Mar 12, 2006 18:37:32 GMT -5
Rita to Michael What I read was that Forrestal went over the rank of individuals that were critical of Lindbergh, and recommended Lindbergh for a special assignment. He may have been critical publicly, but in covert operation terms criticism may be part of the operation, in this case giving credence to Lindbergh's disillusionment.
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Post by rick3 on Mar 17, 2006 17:18:29 GMT -5
I just want to add that the notion that the thumbguard was dropped the same day as Charlie was dumped out along the Hopewell-Princeton Road is attractive (Elyssa). Second, since then, i have a similar notion that Betty Gow threw down the thumbguard and then picked it up? Them that hides can find/ Betty is still a person of interest. Every time she goes to Sorrel Hill something happens? Third, i am looking for a place on this Board to ask the following guestion and I cant find the right place--so here goes: (maybe we need a Fisch site somewhere?)
Who was the woman who accompanied Fisch and Uhlig to Liepsig? [Fisches secret girlfriend]
I would only add that an OSS plot would mesh nicely with the Nazis in Summit, NJ.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 17, 2006 17:22:32 GMT -5
"I would only add that an OSS plot would mesh nicely with the Nazis in Summit, NJ. "
WHY?
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Post by rita on Mar 17, 2006 22:43:26 GMT -5
To Rick3 Most youngn's dont remember the Spy-Counterspy Comic, but that was the reality of spy work, and maybee the reason for only a part of the body found, as Charlie may have picked up a baby rattler with a fuse attached.
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Post by rickmember on Mar 18, 2006 7:37:46 GMT -5
Kevin...I have had the notion for some time that a bunch of illegal German immigrants in the Bronx should not be living like the aristocracy in suites? Who is funding this vacation project other than the German government? The 30s were a hiatus between the two WW and the German government must have wanted to get a leg-up for thier next adventure. BRH is spending way more money before the snatch of Charlie than after. Hes one of 20% of Americans driving a new car as outlined by Michael in the ransom section of this board. The Henkel family is doing OK too, but Carl is only driving a truck for Knicerbocker. 90 day vacations to California are common. "Whats wrong with this picture?" In addition to the inscription on the Mersman, the Symbol may include the SS lightening bolts--until authorship is confirmed. I would imagine the German government would always consider Charles A. Lindbergh a "person of interest" in thier up and coming foreign policy and maybe stealing Charlie was to throw CAl off balence? Unless the OSS is totally asleep we might want to keep an eye on them? These folks are providing each other alibis between parties just like a German cell would be expected to do. Thats why we need to find Fisch's girlfriend.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 18, 2006 8:18:51 GMT -5
Rick, I am not dismissing any reasonable theories, but as I grew up next to Summit, NJ, I am curious as to why you feel it was attractive to the Nazis.
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Post by rita on Mar 21, 2006 1:20:46 GMT -5
To Rick Perhaps Charlie was taken to either place blame on the U.S., or was used as a barter tool for information and service.
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Post by rick for kevin on Feb 9, 2007 12:10:53 GMT -5
Hi Kevin: I think it is very suspicious that you didnt jump at the chance to tell Mairi: If we were writing a Class B movie we could: - Have some Jewish immigrants steal Charlie and try to blame the NSDAP? Certainly Fisch, Junge and Nosovitsky qualify.
- Have some Nazi espionage agents steal Charlie and blame the Jewish Navy or Purple Gang or Communist Union organizers?
- Since CAL never revealed or exposed one single German plot or Nazi, or returned one single German medal I guess I would go with the second choice?
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Post by sue75 on Feb 9, 2007 17:18:19 GMT -5
Sue for Mairi:
Hi Mairi,
I originally posted this about 4 summers ago. I found it at the public library in Celina, Ohio, home of the Mersman Table Company. This is an article from the Summit Herald of New Jersey for December 9, 1948 (shortly after Elmer Bolliard went to the NJ police with his Mersman table)
"Summit's Lindbergh Angle Now Told by Former Detective"
By BILLIE LONGWELL
After 12 years, Summit's police efforts in the Lindbergh kidnapping case were revealed yesterday when former Detective Nicholas J. Grasso said, "I lived in Summit for almost a month with an ex-convict who claimed to know where part of the ransom money was hidden."
Grasso's statement was made after the Herald questioned him on a tip-off concerning the hush-hush affair.
Mr. Grasso's entrance into the case came in April 1936, when a well-known Summit resident cooperated with former Gov. Harold F. Hoffman in one of the governor's last moves to prove that Bruno Richard Hauptman was not guilty of the crime for which he paid with his life during that same year.
The only person to know of the Summit angle, which involved a first class hotel and a Walnut Street rooming house, was the late Police Chief Edward T. Nelson who assigned Mr. Grasso to the job.
[More later]
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 9, 2007 19:30:36 GMT -5
Thanx Sue~~That is SUCH an interesting post (re-post) you made! A fascinating connection. I thought I had read that the table owner said he had purchased the table new about a decade previously. Have some trouble with the "arithmetic" on that and who had the chance to write on the table of the one owner. I appreciate you and Michael adding more of the Summit information. Thanx too, Michael~ for the great overview of the ransom certs testing. Much of that was new to me and everso interesting. Any ideas on why some of the money would have been buried? Too risky to turn in?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 9, 2007 20:11:11 GMT -5
What is there to tell? Summit is and has been for some time a very affluent town. There has been so much construction going on there in the past 60 yrs that I doubt any soil or buildings remain undisturbed. It is also the last place you would find either of your two groups of possible conspirators. Maybe a re-write is in order?
BTW, the furniture store where the Mersman table was purchased is only a mile from where I lived as a child.
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Post by rick for kevin on Feb 9, 2007 23:03:55 GMT -5
Kevin...thats amazing...really. Sue75 took one of her kids all the way to the Mersman Factory in Ohio on a summer vacation once? Maybe she would have been better served to go to Summit? If we can believe the Mersman fits the ransom notes (if the holes fit) then there are only two interpretations: - The kidnappers were connected to the Nazi NADSP party?
- OR
- Someone wants to use the NADSP for a scapegoat or red herring? But why then write the song at all?
There certainly are no shortage of German connections to the kidnapping: - Hans and Frans, Isador, Bruno, Uhlig, Geisslers, Henkels, etc.
- CJ is either Scandanavian or German accented?
- Ransom notes are written in a German style.
- CALs mentors are Carrel and Ford...antisemitic Nazi lovers?
- Hitler becomes Chancellor in 1932?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 10, 2007 8:41:31 GMT -5
Not really, Rick. The hole alignment is relevant only to the degree in which the hole spacing is unique and the alignment is absolutely exact. If , for example the spacing is a nominal dimension, say 1 1/2" for example, that's a pretty commonly found spacing. The holes in the notes are about the dia. of an nail, while the holes in the tabletop are larger for wood screws. Then there is the issue of the relatively clean punches found in dem holes. As Joes's excellent work shows, those holes are formed in a specific way. Punching through that paper into much larger holes ( the table screw holes are enlarged for countersinking the heads) would not give you a clean punch out. On top of all of that, how would you align or index all of the notes for punching when your die ( the table holes) is below and hidden? Another thing, the employees of the Mersman factory were largely made up Germans. Given all the hoaxes any large case receives, is it so difficult to believe this is yet another? Still if these bizarre tales are to your liking , I would suggest this; Look closely at the German song used in the beginning ( all of it) Forget about Summit, NJ and look at The Summit, NJ ( High Point) that is in Sussex Co where German American Nazi organizations existed. Buy a used Mersman on EBay or any flea market and try to make dem holes. Good Luck!
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Post by Michael on Feb 10, 2007 11:32:12 GMT -5
I think we've been down this road before but....
I think someone's ideas which may or may not be considered "over the top" doesn't invalidate the original dilemma.
There is no way someone "hoaxed" this table piece by making the holes to exactly match those in the notes. That's simply not possible without the notes in hand in my opinion.
Joe's experiment was a good one but I think it has to be measured by the fact we don't know what the tools were which made the actual holes in the notes. His experiment proves to me that it wasn't nails. Rab had been the first to point out to me that shapes of the holes are different...one looking like a "clover" and he used this fact to theorize "batches" of notes were punched at one time because these patterns move after a series of notes.
The question Kevin makes is also a good one concerning how one creates exact holes when your die is below and hidden. I think Mark Falzini answered that question for me when he placed the table piece on top of a light source to exemplify the exactness of the holes in the note in relationship to the holes in the table piece.
I believe the holes in the table were a template for the holes in the note. It may or may not have been actually used to create the holes in the note directly - that's up for debate.
I also think Kevin's idea about Summit is another way of looking at the message but I have a feeling they really meant Summit, N.J. Of course we still don't know who wrote this confession, other then the fact it was someone "in the know" but it could be the money was moved since it was written. There were rumors that the Governor was trying to run down some of it which had been burned.
Mairi - this may answer your question. Perhaps fear. The laundering had been successful up till that point and it appeared even Hauptmann wasn't so concerned in the end - which is what got him arrested.
Kevin - when you were growing up did you ever hear anything about this discovery?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 10, 2007 14:33:16 GMT -5
I think that it would depend entirely upon the exact hole spacing. It might be surprising to learn how common ( or uncommon) those spacings are.
I will let Joe answer this completely, but my understanding is that the butt end of a finishing nail duplicated the holes. Those ends have a small concave dimple and are not perfectly round. I had also suggested a nail set which has much the same qualities. It might be an interesting experiment to try this at the museum with Hauptmann's set.
No,not that I remember. I did go in the store many times though and I have a furniture piece similar to the Mersman from there. My early exposure of this case was limited to my German father and relatives who talked about it. I think my Father was actually working at a gas station ( depression work) on the way to and from Highfields.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 10, 2007 15:35:28 GMT -5
It appears that the perps thought of the three holes - especially "dem holes" - as being the strongest point of proof. Then a confession is written on a board with matching holes. Seems more than coincidence, in my view. What comes out on the opposite side of the holes in the board? The following may sound too far out (but I don't mind ), but is it conceivable that the notes were placed and punched between the confession board and the table top? We may be back to the hanging "chads". Suppose these were drill holes instead of nail holes in that instance? Nope--couldn't be drill holes---wouldn't account for the clover shape of one of the holes. Scratch THAT idea!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 11, 2007 9:29:00 GMT -5
OK, I measured the holes and spacing from scaled photos and I came up with the following;
Hole dia .111" Hole spacing on center 1.0197" and 1.091" ( left and right to center) Hole spacing 2.1107" ( left to right on center) Diameter of finishing nail head ( varies) 1.114" +/- .125" Diameter of tapered #10 wood screw .248" minimum ( varies depending on type of drill used for hole)
So what we have is a on center measurement of the holes which is extremely close to 1" on center. I would say that is a pretty common spacing. Personally I don't see how one could make those holes indexed as they are with a table top screw holes at more than twice the dia. of the note holes. You would have to use the same size wood screw or a tapered drill bit which created the original holes. Perhaps I will give it a try and see what type of hole that leaves in paper.
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2007 11:01:38 GMT -5
In my opinion these holes were definitely not made by nails... I wish Rab were posting because I would really like to get his insight and/or observations on this subject....
One of the things that is so convincing to me is the Police were looking for a template, that is, a device which would make those holes in the notes because they were exact in each of the notes.
They never found anything - and that is in 1932 up to and including Hauptmann's arrest specifically searching his place to find such a template and/or device.
For me, I would think if the spacing were common they either would have found something or discontinued any investigation concerning it.
Now for someone in Ohio - who doesn't have the notes or even a scaled picture (or otherwise for that matter) of one - how in the hell do they create a template? And for that matter they hide it without ever knowing whether or not it will be discovered.... In fact the odds are that it wouldn't be.... And what exactly does it tell us?
Nothing other then the fact that Hauptmann wasn't alone - something which I think we all believe excepting a few dinosaurs who won't let go of Fisher's book. It doesn't even bother to point out the holes... and if you think that's not important then factor in that even the NJSP never thought to check and if it wasn't for Mark Falzini's brilliance then to this day we would never know about it.
A "hoax" would not be perpetrated in this manner in my opinion, because the "hoaxer" isn't intending to "hoax" anyone by this method.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 11, 2007 11:47:54 GMT -5
I agree that Mark did a fantastic job in making a correlation between the notes and the table top. He gets nothing but my praise for this. However, I still don't see how this process would work or how the "confession" writer would have created the notes, then at a much later date gone back and written the "confession". Maybe you could elaborate. As for the 1" spacing template and the failure of the police to discover it, what would you expect them to find? I just went to the shop and created 3 holes in paper 1" on center with nothing more than a standard nail set, a scrap of wood, and I did it without a template or ruler. To be more exact I only needed to lay the blade of a ruler on the paper ( 1" increments are primary in carpenter's rulers). My point is that it seems needlessly difficult to index these holes with a template with holes in it. It is far easier and quicker to align the sheets and punch them without any type of template. If the Mersman was used to create those holes then it should be a simple matter to try a duplicate them exactly as all of the ingredients except the punch are at the museum. At the very least this could verify or eliminate the theory of it's role.
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Post by rick3 on Feb 11, 2007 12:14:40 GMT -5
Michael...are you saying how does someone at the Mersman Table Factory make a template with the Hamburg Sailors song on it? Or just the hole spaceing? - Can we confirm the YEAR the table was made?
- The best photo of the Table legs are in Gardner.
- Are Margarite and Johannes Junge our best guess for authorship still? Did they recant thier alibi for Red Johnson as stated by Susan Hertog on pp 197-198? That would be huge in light of Red declaration: Its An Inside Job?
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2007 19:17:02 GMT -5
No. Without the # associated with the table there just isn't a positive way to date the table. I communicated with Experts on this as I know Joe has too. Sue has researched this table as Rick has posted. Judging from the photos it could have been from before or after 1932. Obviously if authentic then it had to be in possession of the "Kidnappers" before March 1, 1932. Like the crime itself, I believe the creation of this symbol was well thought out - especially them 3 holes. In Foster's report he gives an interesting explanation for the holes: The three holes in the note are an old trick used by espionage agents for identification purposes. They would punch several holes into two pieces of paper at the same time and use these for identification if the holes matched. The chances of anyone hitting the exact spot in three or four holes of paper was so remote that it was almost positive identification Interesting to note that author Tom Wescott read this in one of my posts then included it in his October '04 article in Ripper Notes titled: The Vecia Piscis Connection. The article is a good one and can be read here: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/ripper%20notes.pdfI am not sure I understand what you are asking here.... Condon said "John" told him the symbol maker had been taken away and that no further notes would have it. If this table piece is legit then this turns out to be true. Additionally, as I remember, Condon testified at the NY Grand Jury that a carpet stretcher and an awl were used. I don't know if this was true but it gives one the impression that something held the paper down tight which makes sense under the circumstances. If an awl had been used then there must have been (3) different ones. And so, if no further notes could contain the symbol because the symbol maker had been taken away, then it stands to reason the table was needed in order to create the holes. Therefore, even if the table holes themselves weren't "punched through" - the holes were needed as the template for their creation. It being the connecting piece between legs and top makes it a perfect hiding spot for the "template." In my opinion, only someone familiar with furniture would know this or even come up with the idea. In Dr. Gardner's book, The Case That Never Dies, on page 124 he quotes Snook's report concerning Dr. Souder's observations concerning the holes being made with a "gauge." Here is the page in question from his source: I think an experiment like this is a very good idea although I am still not convinced how the table was utilized. I also think not having the actual tools used to do the punching is critical in understanding this. Either way you are the perfect guy to do this and its ashame Joe is all the way up in Canada because I think he'd be a good partner to have here. Seeing those holes in the ransom notes line up dead center is eerie to say the least. They seemed to have punch a series of notes at the same time as evidenced by Rab's theory. I agree things could have been easier but it appears they went to great lengths to ensure this symbol could not be copied. By the same argument one could ask why they didn't use the same color ink etc. We would also have to ask how this supposed "hoaxer" knew the exact spacing of them holes and that the template had not been found - this is a very knowledgeable prankster indeed. In the end its would be like telling a joke without a punch line and without ever knowing if there was ever anyone to hear it in the first place.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 11, 2007 20:26:07 GMT -5
I would certainly like to give it a shot, that is if Mark approves. Perhaps earlier on the 1st. I still think that the primary and most important aspect of those holes is not the spacing but rather the indexing. That's where I don't see how or why the Mersman would be useful. Also , I thought it was purchased new around 1938.
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Post by rick for michael on Feb 11, 2007 22:41:50 GMT -5
Michael--I really like the vesica for the symbol because of the mother/father and son plus bloodline analogy....but the holes: We have as yet not discovered any espionage angle in the LKC in spite of all the German Nationals with lots of money? We have as yet not found anyone who tried to copy, or fake the symbol and collect the ransom? Especially the holes? Yikes? So what person that we know predicted that everyone in NJ or NY or USA would have immediate access to the ransom notes/ the ransom singnature and the ransom holes??? - Cemetary John? (Isador Fisch)
- Jacob "Doc" Nosovitsky?
- Gaston Bud Means?
- Johannes Junges?
What international spy or covert agent would overthink the symbol singnature to this extreme degree? Very few? In the Constance Morrow note the kidnappers just said "put the money in the hole in the park or graveyard so we can pick it up"/
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Post by rick Part II on Feb 11, 2007 23:02:19 GMT -5
1. Maybe this complicated symbol/singnature was designed to be recognized by CAL or associates like Breckenridge, or Donovan, or others like Robert Thayer? Some were involved with military intellegence?
2. It seems unlikely that this complex, multicolored symbol was not composed from past knowledge or experience. Therefore, we can assume the techniques and execution are not one of a kind.
3. Thus, if the holes had been used before, maybe it wasnt solely to prevent forgery? But to convey some yet undiscovered message?
4. Who was supposed to verify the authenticity of each subsequent message--Jafsie Condon?
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2007 23:35:50 GMT -5
Here is the link to Mark's email. It contains all the "official" information. lindberghkidnap.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=mark&action=display&thread=1145815399As one can see this is coming from newspaper articles and there are no known Police reports about this. It's unfortunate to say the least and I'm hoping one day they open a crate from the warehouse and in it are the legs and top which will contain the serial #. I've read too many newspaper reports which were factually incorrect for me to rely upon them totally. For example, did Bollard buy what he thought was a brand-new 1938 Mersman, did he simply think he was buying a 'new' table, did he say he went to buy a new table, did he think the table was new, or was he simply misquoted and/or incorrect? Police reports usually bring this information out, however, I believe they felt this was a hoax from jump-street so they probably did a half-assed job investigating. We know they took pictures and kept the table piece but no one until Mark ever bothered to check these holes out against the notes. Oh there are some theories as you might imagine, and there were some accusations back then. I don't think, if the Foster report I quoted is correct, that it definitely means real spies or the like were involved in that capacity, rather, it could simply have been someone who knew about this in one way or another. I read in one report where someone who saw the footprints claimed the foot coverings were what the Red Cross gave our troops during WWI. Actually I did find a "ransom note" written to Ingersoll in an attempt to extort money from him with the symbol on it. It was a fair forgery however the holes did not match.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 12, 2007 6:56:44 GMT -5
I wish I had more time to devote to this thread as I find it one of the most intriguing, but I'm heading north again this morning for the week. I'll pick it up again next weekend. In the meatime here are a few personal observations on the note and table brace: - Although the table brace strikes me primarily as a hoax, I don't discount the possibility it is a message from an individual who had some knowledge of the ransom note hole positioning. Therefore they were attempting to add an important measure of credibility to the affair by replicating the correct distances.
- Why didn't the authorities in 1948 pick up on the fact that the correct distances of the holes were replicated in the table brace? Maybe they overlooked it, but perhaps they recognized the significance, ultimately choosing to not want to draw attention to and openly raising the possibility of anyone else's involvement. (or at least another person's awareness of what really happened.)
- At best, the table brace could have been used to determine the actual distance of the ransom note holes, but could not have been used as a direct template to punch the holes. You just can't get a punched hole or an accurate hole by using the brace while the paper is positioned either on top of or underneath it.
- Because the holes in the brace are much larger than the actual ransom note holes, there is a corresponding degree of "play" if one tries to line up the centre of each of the brace holes. By using a marking instrument of just under this diameter or "eyeballing" the centre of each brace hole you would now have the three coordinates established for transferring to an accurate working template, such as a simple piece of cardboard that could easily be aligned to the bottom right hand corner of note paper. I made a simple cardboard template in five minutes with which I was able to very accurately reproduce the ransom note hole positioning at the precise location on any page I used it on. This doesn't have to be a complicated and unwieldy process and I'm sure it wan't for the creator of the symbol.
Here I have serious doubts the table brace was the source of the distance between ransom note holes and see it primarily as a later day "device of opportunity" to relay a message, real or imagined in order to create a stir.
- Assuming for a moment that the individual who wrote the table brace "confession" knew the correct hole distances and that it's holes are original factory drilled, would this not point to a Mersman factory worker who had knowledge of the ransom note hole positioning? As Kel pointed out a few years ago, non-exact holes of this sort were drilled freehand by a hand drill operator. So what would have inspired the worker to drill this precise hole positioning?
- Having said this, would it not stand to reason that if he had have been involved he might welll ahve been aware of the actual distances between ransom note holes, in inches or millimetres. About four years ago, I was messing around with the distances between holes, initially struck by the fact they were not equidistant. As a result of precise measurements between holes on the original notes made by Mark Falzini, I theorized that the distances between holes (in millimetres) might be a close representation of the years in which Lindbergh and Hauptmann crossed the Atlantic in their respective "journeys."
- I evaluated at least 20 different objects in an attempt to reproduce the appearance of the ransom note holes. What worked best by far was a finishing nail, about 2" in length, held in an inverted position and punched with a hammer through the paper into a piece of softwood. The use of a firm support underneath is crucial to effecting a clean enough cut hole which still leaves some evidence of paper chads. Of note is the fact that hole shape in many cases differs quite markedly through a number of paper thicknesses, even within the same punch strike. I have seen everything from relatively round / squarish / teardrop / clover shaped and attribute this to the continual process as each hole is instantly created in turn by the effect of the punch and the accumulating paper chads gathered by the concave head of the nail.
Kevin's idea of the nail punch being used is a good one and although I've tried a modern day type which didn't work as well as the butt end of the finishing nail, as he pointed out to me ealier, older varieties may have had a different striking head configuration. I encourage others as well to try out my simple experiment described above and will gladly share all information on method used.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 12, 2007 9:30:36 GMT -5
Good points Joe. I also find this discussion interesting as I think it is an example of how we can all work in concert to sift through the myriad of evidence. On one hand we have great researchers like Michael and Mark who seem to always come up with something new. That evidence and information can then be examined and assessed by others like you. I see the Mersman hole spacing as intriguing, but I also look at things from a practical and mechanical perspective. In that regard I would find the table support more interesting if it's dimensions and hole location corresponded in some way with the notes and their respective hole location. Unfortunately I don't see that as of yet. I agree 100% with your conclusion regarding the need for a firm substrate to make the holes. You simply can't duplicate them with by punching down into a hole. So any template used, and I am not 100% convinced one was needed, had to be on the top and it probably would be smaller than the notes or at least relate to the location of the note hole distance from the edge of the paper. I would also say that in regard to coincidence, it seems pretty amazing that the location of the furniture store the table was purchased from was so near the Hamer Publishing Co which had published The Hand of Hauptmann by Haring at about the same time. I say that because that is the book I used to measure and locate the duplicate holes since it has great note photos with scales. Also one other point of interest, those tables sometimes have their tops removed for shipping, storage, or to change the top style. It is a relatively easy affair to do this and in no way damages the piece. So it may have been possible for more than a few to make the "confession".
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Post by Michael on Feb 12, 2007 11:34:14 GMT -5
Great discussion, and I think it exemplifies why these boards are such valuable resources.... If Kel is correct then I believe this harms the idea of someone "creating" these holes to match the ransom note. How exactly does one do that? Do they create a new piece and replace an old? And without the notes, how are they so exact in having the holes line up dead center? Kevin's point concerning Haring's book has been a popular rebuttal for how this could occur but consider the odds and the circumstances. Would a Mermsman factory worker have a copy of a book which sold so very few copies? Would they blow up to scale and "create" these holes so flawlessly? How do they know where this table is heading? For example, did they pull the invoice, then go to the warehouse to replace the piece with their hoax one? The odds just continue to go up and up. Someone would have to go through a tremendous amount of work, timing, and effort - and for what? Then the idea that this "confession" relies on the holes which aren't pointed out and in a place where someone may never see it. Let's look at the "Boad Nelly" note: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/handposter.jpgAs the last note shows there were no holes. Was this because "John" penned this out last minute? Does it look rushed? Same author and same disguise. And so if it was planned for, like everything else these guys did, then it indicates the symbol was not there for another reason - and the only explanation we have is what Condon tells them. This is true and why it is amazing the holes in the notes line up dead center. Maybe its not so impressive to a Master Carpenter but then are we to assume this "hoaxer" to have such the expertise to be so exact and precise? An excellent suggestion and I wonder what Mark thinks about this possibility. The idea of a truck driver etc. is something which must be mentioned but I find them even less likely to possess the book, the skill, or the time for such a "hoax." When Rab showed me the unique hole which looked like a "clover" it clearly showed that it was in the same spot in 3 or 4 notes in a row. (I don't recall exactly how many - hopefully he'll be in touch for the specifics). This "clover" then changed position in the notes for another series in a row. It indicates a group at a time were created in advance. Why? Well if you consider the table it makes sense here. If one doesn't need a "template" or created an easier or simple version of one why the pattern? Why punch a series of notes at the same time? Why not punch each note as they are needed? But if it requires you to disassemble a table then it makes sense. No one is likely to stumble upon this and therefore the evidence and the unique aspect of your symbol are safe. My guess it was done this way even to safe-guard against a double-cross by a Confederate. Kevin, when you examine this table piece more closely take a look at the sides. Rab showed me "pin-prick" holes possibly made by tacks or something similar. I wouldn't have noticed if he hadn't pointed them out to me.
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