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Post by Giszmo on Apr 17, 2007 7:26:44 GMT -5
I think it was an oversight. (Michael)
=whew!= ;D
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Post by rick3skeptic6 on Apr 17, 2007 9:27:14 GMT -5
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 17, 2007 12:49:16 GMT -5
You may be compounding one "bad" with another here.
Bottom line is that unless someone can positively id that table from the surviving NJSP photo of the base with an exact match with a Mersman table, there is no way anyone can assume anything about it. I have looked at literally thousands of period furniture pieces , mostly of Mersman manufacture, and have not as of yet found a match. In fact, the closest was a pedestal table made in Grand Rapids.
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Post by rick3skeptic7 on Apr 17, 2007 14:42:38 GMT -5
Kevin--I/me/je/ich/soy/sogetto am hardly compounding anything: Its Mark's baby and Lloyd Gardner put it into his book. Contact them directly if you have the cajones? And Ronelle's website too: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/brace.htmlEssentially, the holes and the poem match! Check and mate/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 17, 2007 15:07:03 GMT -5
And this has what to do with your assumptions? I don't think Mark has ever asserted that the table is a Mersman. I don't see how Dr, Gardner's inclusion of the table brace in his book has anything to do with your assumptions. How so? That's 0 for 3 BTW, It doesn't take "cajones" to contact either Dr Gardner or Mark . They are both open minded men and have always welcomed debate and differing opinions to their enormous credit.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 17, 2007 16:20:55 GMT -5
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 17, 2007 18:49:37 GMT -5
Why should I pay for something that you so readily dispense?
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Post by Michael on Apr 17, 2007 18:51:49 GMT -5
Don't be so snappy Rick! Kevin's point is a very good one. I think he's pointing out a possible error that everyone has been making - including me. Think about it.... What's the source this table was a genuine Mersman? A couple of newspaper articles and nothing more.
We need an ID and simply do not have one.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2007 9:08:46 GMT -5
Perhaps rather than wasting our time with these pointless exchanges anyone actually interested in the table note "confession" could help locate an identical table. I would suggest Ebay searches under pedestal table for a good start. If it is an actual Mersman piece then it is a sure thing that others exist since this company excelled at mass production. For those interested here is what is needed. First, a photo of the table base. Dr Gardner's book has a good photo. You will be looking for a quad leg urn column base with brass feet. The trick is to find a table with the exact column turning profile and leg profile. Another source would be period catalogs and advertisements. These are also available on EBay. As to date I have not found an identical table base manufactured by Mersman, but then again I don't have a complete compilation of every piece they made. If this table can be identified I feel pretty confident that the date of manufacture can be determined or at least a reasonable time frame. Also, the type of table might reveal some clues as to the validity of the Bollard story. At this point I suspect that the table this base came from is not like any of those posted on other sites and it may not be a drum table. Of course all of this takes time as there are countless colonial revival tables in existence and thousands on EBay alone. But if you are genuinely interested in the "Mersman" angle it should be worth your effort. Maybe it's time to start cleaning up loose ends and stop with the regurgitating of mis-information.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 18, 2007 10:02:47 GMT -5
Lindy Kidnap has more complete, hands on info on the table brace than we do: groups.yahoo.com/group/LindyKidnap/message/8696""Who is to say? If the written confession on the Mersman table is truly a hoax what will happen in the future? Nothing. Because if the confession is a false confession (a hoax) there will be no way ever at all to prove genuineness or nongenuineness about the writing. I like this particular piece of writing quite a lot because everybody gets an enema with this questioned writing. The VD'ers, revisionists, conspiracy theorists, Hauptmann defenders, the delusional, the nitwits. Talk about fairness. (;-)"" Script (Lindykidnap #8693) I bought a Mersman Duncan fife table offen Ebay 2 years ago for $200 bucks but when it arrived it did not have the 5- holed pattern. Now that I see the most recent Ebay offering: cgi.ebay.com/FABULOUS-MAHOGANY-MERSMAN-LAMP-TABLE-W-DRAWER_W0QQitemZ280104379827QQihZ018QQcategoryZ63588....mine doesnt even have the Mersman Stamp branded on it? Ouch?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2007 14:11:45 GMT -5
It doesn't matter whether or not it has a Mersman label. Mersman used burn-in and labels for identification. Anyway it's irrelevant. You must find the leg and column combination that matches the NJSP photo regardless of what manufacturer produced it. It is just as fruitless to keep referring to the information on the other LKC sites. They are inaccurate, to say the least.
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Post by sue75 on Apr 18, 2007 15:57:20 GMT -5
The Mercer County (yes, Mercer County, Ohio!) Historical Society in Celina does not even have a complete set of all the Mersman Table catalogs. Two things are necessary: having the time and having the inclination to nail down the exact model of this table. Maybe it's been identified by now? I wouldn't be surprised if a researcher or two has already named the table.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2007 16:44:52 GMT -5
You don't need a complete set of Mersman catalogs, though that would certainly be helpful. I have about a dozen or so. Mersman, as other mass production furniture companies, tried to keep costs down and volume up by sticking with a limited amount of styles. Whatever company made that table would have made many copies. So it is a matter of looking. If it's important enough to keep talking about then I would think it is worth the expenditure of time.
Like who???
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Post by rick3skeptic6 on Apr 18, 2007 16:58:03 GMT -5
Kevin--I know its hard to prove a negative but this is really looking like your baby now?
"This is how YOU get somewhere for anyone interested in that pursuit. Here we have two highly intelligent people with opposing views trying to find the truth.
I have to admit I fall in between on this one. On one hand it seems remarkable that the holes line up on the Mersman and yet it seems so out of context. On the other hand Joe's point is well taken and the aspect of the "clean" holes left is important. Perhaps a microscope would help to determine the paper tears. Another factor would be the relative commonality of the hole spacing. By this I mean how often might you expect that hole spacing to be found? If the Mersman table utilized industrial production methods and machinery for it's production that spacing may have been more common than thought.""Kevcon
I, for one, am willing to accept the word of Bolliard and the salesman from the furniture store? They should know what a Mersman looks like? And now the top of the table is missing?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2007 18:16:46 GMT -5
Well, those that can do and those that can't ( or won't) just add question marks. ;D
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Post by Michael on Apr 18, 2007 21:08:34 GMT -5
Rick,
This was assumed to be a Mersman based upon what's reported in those Newspaper Articles. That's what any previous reference was based on. Now Kevin has raised this point and is clearly right in saying we need more. A positive ID on the base is necessary. I have been frustrated in my efforts and haven't found one although I haven't looked anywhere other then Mersman.
I don't know who would do this other then those of us who are posting and/or reading our Board. If we want to solve it we must actively be searching and checking all possible sources of manufacture. Conceding its indeed a Mersman w/o any proof is a big mistake in my opinion.
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Post by rmc1971 on May 6, 2007 2:37:39 GMT -5
Kevin...I have had the notion for some time that a bunch of illegal German immigrants in the Bronx should not be living like the aristocracy in suites? Who is funding this vacation project other than the German government? The 30s were a hiatus between the two WW and the German government must have wanted to get a leg-up for thier next adventure. BRH is spending way more money before the snatch of Charlie than after. Hes one of 20% of Americans driving a new car as outlined by Michael in the ransom section of this board. The Henkel family is doing OK too, but Carl is only driving a truck for Knicerbocker. 90 day vacations to California are common. "Whats wrong with this picture?" In addition to the inscription on the Mersman, the Symbol may include the SS lightening bolts--until authorship is confirmed. I would imagine the German government would always consider Charles A. Lindbergh a "person of interest" in thier up and coming foreign policy and maybe stealing Charlie was to throw CAl off balence? Unless the OSS is totally asleep we might want to keep an eye on them? These folks are providing each other alibis between parties just like a German cell would be expected to do. Thats why we need to find Fisch's girlfriend. This would have been about a year before the Nazis came to power. I would assume they would be more worried about consolidating power at home before worrying about their foreign policy objectives. But even more importantly than that, the SS wasn't a very large or powerful group at this time. In early '32, and the years before that (if this had been planned for 'more than a year already') the SA still would have been the power source of the Nazi party. And I don't see the SA having the ability to do anything along these lines.
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Post by rick3 on May 6, 2007 11:29:13 GMT -5
Hi rmc; thanks for the long plug....its interesting to see how my views have "matured" over the past year: - I hereby exonerate the German government from funding BRH and Fisch's (Schleser and DiGrasi) many vacations
- I now see them as small time hoods/crooks, shovers, forgers and money launderers just trying to make an honest buck
- the stock market and Knickerbocker fur-pie businesses are great cover for smuggling other commodities including booze, drugs etc
- As for the wavy fish lines I currently opt for YODs over the SS
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Post by rmc1971 on May 6, 2007 18:05:13 GMT -5
Rick - I do think you're on the right track. Maybe not at a high gov't level, but I feel there are some answers to this mystery in the German American enclave in the Bronx. As far as it appears, Hauptmann's friends were almost exclusively German. Since it also appears that this wasn't a one man job, it would only be logical that the conspirators were German as well. It would be interesting to know how much 'German nationalism' was a part of Hauptmann's life, and of his circle of friends. There very well could be something to that.
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Post by fgreenwiscedu on Aug 20, 2008 11:28:45 GMT -5
I think the purpose of using it was its concealment. When more notes were needed they had to take it apart in order to get the coordinates to create the holes again. Let me try to explain my position, not to convince anyone that I am right, but rather in a way to better understand where I am coming from. First I am going to do something I never do... I am pretty sure this table was used for the "placement" of the holes on the notes. Meaning it was authentic in regard to it being utilized in some fashion to uniquely position those holes.Furthermore, for me, it's obvious there is more then one person involved in this crime and the extortion that follows. Next, let's take a look at the ladder - it was a very complex design which was indeed well thought out and worked for a myriad of circumstances. I have come to this conclusion due to Kevin's input. Something Kevin has theorized was that several species of wood was used on purpose so that in the event the ladder was discarded it would be harder to trace, in essence, pointing to a million different places. Now if the Kidnappers took some much time and consideration regarding this ladder then the same must be true about the symbol - if not moreso. This symbol directly represents their authenticity and the $50,000 ($70,000) payday. I think the reference of the kidnapper to "them 3 holes" is also meaningful. Clearly there was some thought there that the holes represented something unique or verifiable. And the fact that the holes line up note to note seems to support this. (Rab) I agree with Rab and think this best exemplifies my point above. And so this symbol, specifically the holes, qualify and identify this party absolutely. It's also incriminating isn't it? Exactly....which is why the table piece is perfect. Even if it were taken apart I don't think they would have been looking for the holes - there. See how easily they overlooked it when it was found? This "clover" hole is unique. It is consistently the same size and pattern meaning the shape of the item puncturing the hole was different then the others making the other two holes. Once you examine the real notes it becomes obvious. This hole moves after a series of notes. This is very important. It means that several notes were punched at once then another group was punched at once at another time. Why is this important? Because if Kevin was correct and an actual piece of paper (or some other object) was used then the Kidnappers wouldn't be punching notes in a series like this, rather they would simply punch one note at a time when needed. Additionally, they would line up the unique "clover" hole and use it in the same position. What appears to be going on is they "use up" their punched notes and then return to the gauge and/or template in order to create a 2nd series of notes. It also implies, as Rab says above, they didn't think they would need so many notes. So the original 2 or 3 that were punch were what they expected would be needed. They also expected them to be gone and not in their possession anymore thus eliminating the evidence and feeling safe the table wouldn't be discovered as the source. Back to the ladder.... With the totality of the circumstances that exist, it seems clear the ladder wasn't built in Hauptmann's garage. For the sake of argument let's say he built it. Let's even say he used his plane on Rail 16 and the rungs. Let's go further and say he used his nails. He kept those things didn't he? But other tools needed to make this ladder weren't found in his possession. Does anyone think he got rid of those tools after seeing everything the Police confiscated? In line with this logic remember that he didn't have the anything to punch the holes in these notes either. And believe me they looked and looked and looked. Nothing. Keohler believed the ladder was built somewhere else too, and do not forget Liz's soil research. Because of her research we are aware of an area where that ladder had been before it was in Hopewell - but why was it there? This inference being it was built there since it was designed for just one purpose. And let's not forget - no soil from Hauptmann's place. I think Kevin's position assumes the ransom note Writer was the person who punched the note. Do we know that for sure? Where were the notes punched? Were they punched and written in the same place? Assuming Hauptmann is the Writer does anyone believe he wrote them in his home? No inks were found in his desk which matched the inks on the notes....would Hauptmann discard the ink? Would he never buy such ink again? Or were these notes penned out elsewhere regardless of who wrote them? Perhaps the ladder was built where the notes were written. And if the table was used it was just too expensive a piece not to be in someone's house instead of a workshop (or hide-out). So it makes sense that someone would take it away. Hey, we're talking an Mersman table! "John" obviously isn't the guy with the template. He tells Condon it was taken away. As Rab says - Condon is a dubious source but his comment can be measured by other circumstances..... Such as - the last note doesn't have the holes. If its just a simple thing as a punched out piece of paper or other simple item as Kevin suggested - then why not? Just how the table was used I don't know. I believe Rab (or Kel) has a good working theory that the paper was lined up some how...perhaps with the fade line. I think if its lined up on top then there has to be a light source under it. It's also possible the board was placed on top of the paper and a probe with a point went through the table holes. Pin-holes are made in the paper to mark where the holes are to be punched. Then the paper is punched using belt hole punchers or things similar. Kevin.......heres MMs view of the table brace. Also in the Archives is a Posting entitled: How the holes were formed by Joe 3-12-06:. 1. What's wrong with Joe's method? He says its reproducible? I cant see his photos In Imageshack, but maybe he turns the table brace over to use the small ends of the holes? 2. Can you draw a sketch as to why it doesn't or won't work? Maybe MM can then upload/post your sketch? Thanks/
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 20, 2008 13:22:13 GMT -5
Rick, please note the subject title in the Archives is actually "How Were the Holes Formed?" I'm asking the question and attempting to find a workable and reproducible method here and I did.
It would have been highly improbable for me to have achieved the exact placement of the holes, or the quality of holes themselves I achieved, using the original table brace or a reproduction of it. You can't align the brace over the paper and see what you're doing and you can't lay the paper on top of the brace to physically create the holes. So the exercise falls flat without both requirements being met. Trying to commandeer this table brace as a template for the ransom notes makes me think of someone using a patio stone for a serving tray. It has nothing going for it but three holes that for some reason are viewed by some as messianic in significance.
All it takes is a simple small cardboard template with three pre-punched holes laid onto the paper in the bottom right hand corner. Exact placement every time. Then mark the paper with a pencil through the template cutouts, place a piece of pine under the paper and punch the locations with the inverted head of a finishing nail. It's no more complicated than that and something a carpenter could easily have come up with. Surprised the police never found a template in Hauptmann's possession? What could be easier than tossing a piece of cardboard into the garbage? I think he kept the nail though.
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Post by sue75 on Mar 17, 2011 10:38:45 GMT -5
Rita started this thread with the title "Lindbergh Case OSS Cover," which I thought would predominantly be about William "Wild Bill Donovan," director of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services) and his possible connection to the Lindbergh kidnapping
Author Noel Behn's research led him to believe that William Donovan was at the estate the night of the disappearance to offer help in staging a bogus kidnapping.
"Anyone with Donovan's knowledge could have described the type of police interrogation the staff and family members would have to endure as the result of a murder investigation, even for accidental homicide" (page 412.)
Ludovic Kennedy (page 92) says Donovan was one of the colonels that was at the estate in Hopewell on March 2.
A brand new book called Wild Bill Donovan: The Spymaster Who Created the OSS and Modern American Espionage by Douglas Waller may hold clues to how Donovan was involved with the LKC.
George Waller: Kidnap, 1961
Ian Waller: UK Genealogist who gave a lecture in 2010 on Violet Sharpe called "The Suicide Maid"
Douglas Waller: author who just published Wild Bill Donvan, 2011
What's with this name Waller and its significance to the Lindbergh case?
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Post by Michael on Mar 18, 2011 18:08:23 GMT -5
Behn is right. Donovan would have been a good person for this role. But the real question is would he have done it if in that position?
There is nothing to support this speculation other then a vote that if he were to choose a good candidate then Donovan was who he'd pick.
Kennedy has no source for this and I don't think there is one. I've never found it, and I don't believe Donovan was ever there. His involvement included vouching for Rosner, which by the way he did not do. Thayer is the closest thing Donovan has to being involved as far as real evidence goes. And if you ask me, Thayer's only goal was to assist in getting the child. Unlike Rosner, Thayer's observations were (to me) both sincere and consistent with someone trying their best to that end.
Donovan was very critical of Lindbergh calling him a "copperhead." I doubt very much if someone helped him stage this whole matter that he would then start to malign that person in public. A secret like that would dictate a non-confrontational attitude concerning anything that person did if you ask me.
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Post by sue75 on Mar 19, 2011 2:46:45 GMT -5
Spies are adept at keeping dark, shameful secrets. Just because Donovan may have hated Lindbergh personally, doesn't mean he didn't know how to keep his trap shut about a conspiracy he may have taken part in at Hopewell.
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Post by Michael on Mar 19, 2011 8:42:13 GMT -5
It's just how I see it Sue. Feel free to disagree with me because I am not always right. I just don't think if I helped someone commit a crime of this magnitude (in any way) the last thing I would do is publicly humiliate, embarrass, and call them out on their betrayal toward their country.
Stuff like this is what drew the attention of the FBI. If Donovan was involved, why would he want the FBI looking at Lindbergh for any reason?
Stuff like this is the number 1 reason why a conspiracy would ultimatley fail.
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Post by vovina on Mar 22, 2011 15:20:29 GMT -5
The explanatory model may be a series of cabals rather than a monolithic over-arching conspiracy: a convergence of various interested parties with limited information regarding the means and ends of other involved grouplets. The proto-OSS, the Communist Party, the Means/Whitaker operation, the FBI etc. all have their spoons in the kettle with no master recipe for the stew ( LOL ! ).
And I still like Sir Basil Zaharoff as the prime candidate for Master Chef - hypothetically, of course, and awaiting further evidence and confirmations !
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