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Post by stella7 on Sept 1, 2016 4:11:33 GMT -5
And they look happy about it too! It was called Heliotropic Therapy and they spent as much time as possible out in the sun even in the winter.
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Post by stella7 on Sept 1, 2016 11:13:08 GMT -5
Amy, I think you may be on to something with the TB and you have long thought there was a New England connection and Sweetwater your recollection fits in nicely. When my brother was a toddler my father built a large pen out of picket fence in our back yard. Filled with Tonka trucks, he could spend hours in there playing, digging and burying stuff in the dirt. My mother could keep an eye on him from the kitchen window and not have to be outside. This was the 60's, when we all played kickball in the street. While the chicken wire sounds awful, it may have been their way of keeping him exposed to sunlight and contained at the same time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 19:14:48 GMT -5
Norma,
Would you happen to know anything about the Supplee-Wills Jones Milk Company? They were located on Nassau Street in Princeton, NJ in 1932. They delivered the milk to the Lindbergh house. Would you know if the milk came from local farms? I am wondering if this same business would have delivered the milk to the Lindbergh house on Cold Soil Road also.
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Post by stella7 on Sept 2, 2016 5:26:55 GMT -5
Amy, I'll see if my father in law knows the name. I asked him once about the Balt Restaurant because it surprised me that it would be open all night and he thought it quite possible because by the late 40's he would have breakfast there at 5am every morning before work and was fascinated with the very stern woman who never smiled and stood in the back making fresh-squeezed orange juice like she was a machine.
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Post by hurtelable on Sept 2, 2016 10:02:05 GMT -5
To amy35 and stella7
Although there undoubtedly was, and still is, positive statistical correlation between rickets and tuberculosis in the same child, there is no known cause (rickets) and effect (tuberculosis) relationship between the two diseases. Rather, the connection between the two is that POVERTY and MALNUTRITION are predisposing factors to both. This does not mean that in the 1930s, no kids from wealthy families could get either condition, but both were much less common in children from high socioeconomic backgrounds than in poverty-stricken children in crowded cities.
So to think that a kid like Charlie from an upper-crust family would have TB is a bit far-fetched, unless there are substantial facts supporting that conclusion. From what I see here, there don't seem to be enough facts to support the proposition that Charlie had tuberculosis. Rickets (Vitamin D resistant), yes. TB, no.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 14:24:18 GMT -5
Amy, I'll see if my father in law knows the name. I asked him once about the Balt Restaurant because it surprised me that it would be open all night and he thought it quite possible because by the late 40's he would have breakfast there at 5am every morning before work and was fascinated with the very stern woman who never smiled and stood in the back making fresh-squeezed orange juice like she was a machine. We are so lucky that you have your father-in-law as a resource! I appreciate that you will ask him about the diary. LOL about the stern faced woman. She sounds like a very unhappy employee.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 15:09:36 GMT -5
To amy35 and stella7 Although there undoubtedly was, and still is, positive statistical correlation between rickets and tuberculosis in the same child, there is no known cause (rickets) and effect (tuberculosis) relationship between the two diseases. Rather, the connection between the two is that POVERTY and MALNUTRITION are predisposing factors to both. This does not mean that in the 1930s, no kids from wealthy families could get either condition, but both were much less common in children from high socioeconomic backgrounds than in poverty-stricken children in crowded cities. So to think that a kid like Charlie from an upper-crust family would have TB is a bit far-fetched, unless there are substantial facts supporting that conclusion. From what I see here, there don't seem to be enough facts to support the proposition that Charlie had tuberculosis. Rickets (Vitamin D resistant), yes. TB, no. I think the whole point of this exchange about TB was hypothetical in nature. However, as you point out, children from high socioeconomic backgrounds are not excluded from rickets or TB. It is factual that TB was treated with sunlight and ultraviolet light because the increase of Vitamin D helped to cure cases of this disease. That is why there were so many sanatoriums opened. They helped to control the spread of TB and also treat their patients with extended periods of sunlight and ultra-violet light to increase the amount of Vitamin D being absorbed in order to strengthen and fight TB. This was the preferred method of treatment until the development of streptomycin in 1947. The correlation between a strong immune system(vitamin D fortified) and the ability of the body to resist or fight Tuberculosis was clearly recognized by the use of these treatments. Even today, this link is still being recognized. Please read the following paragraph from a recent report on Vitamin D and Tuberculosis. "The Institute of Medicine released a report on Vitamin D in 2010 that studied the North American population needs for Vitamin D. The evaluators could not state conclusively that low levels of Vitamin D increased the risk for infections but recommended rigorously conducted studies to answer the question. The data in the literature are not 100% conclusive, but there appears to be increasing evidence to support the role of Vitamin D in its role to strengthen the body’s response to tuberculosis. The potential mechanism is as follows: Vitamin D triggers macrophages, which are a key line of defense against microbial pathogens, to produce a molecule called “cathelicidin”. Cathelicidin kills bacteria, viruses, and fungi, and it is thus one of the body’s natural defense mechanisms against microbes. Essentially, Vitamin D triggers a natural “anti-bacterial response” by this action within macrophages. It is hard not to be enthusiastic at the possibility of such a built-in mechanism against infectious diseases like TB."
Here is the link to the entire article. www.cap-tb.org/blog/medicine-sun-vitamin-d-and-body%E2%80%99s-natural-tb-drugI am certainly not claiming that Charlie had TB. My point was that if Charlie had Vitamin D resistant rickets, where his body was unable to metabolize the vitamin D it was receiving from any and all sources, then Charlie's immune system left him vulnerable to many things, not just tuberculosis but also things like pneumonia. Charlie getting a simple cold could rapidly turn into pneumonia because his immune system was weakened. Charlie supposedly had a cold that night. How serious might that cold really have been? After Betty discovered Charlie missing and told CAL about it, they returned upstairs. Lindbergh then sent Betty downstairs to get Whateley. Betty said to Elsie that Charlie was gone. Elsie thought she meant that Charlie had died, not went missing. Why would Elsie think such a thing unless Charlie's condition was more serious than just a cold. Elsie had been assisting Anne in taking care of Charlie that final weekend. She knew what his condition was. Dead...from a cold???
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Post by stella7 on Sept 2, 2016 17:09:35 GMT -5
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Post by stella7 on Sept 2, 2016 17:10:18 GMT -5
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Post by stella7 on Sept 2, 2016 17:28:05 GMT -5
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Post by hurtelable on Sept 2, 2016 19:25:40 GMT -5
To amy35 and stella7 Although there undoubtedly was, and still is, positive statistical correlation between rickets and tuberculosis in the same child, there is no known cause (rickets) and effect (tuberculosis) relationship between the two diseases. Rather, the connection between the two is that POVERTY and MALNUTRITION are predisposing factors to both. This does not mean that in the 1930s, no kids from wealthy families could get either condition, but both were much less common in children from high socioeconomic backgrounds than in poverty-stricken children in crowded cities. So to think that a kid like Charlie from an upper-crust family would have TB is a bit far-fetched, unless there are substantial facts supporting that conclusion. From what I see here, there don't seem to be enough facts to support the proposition that Charlie had tuberculosis. Rickets (Vitamin D resistant), yes. TB, no. I think the whole point of this exchange about TB was hypothetical in nature. However, as you point out, children from high socioeconomic backgrounds are not excluded from rickets or TB. It is factual that TB was treated with sunlight and ultraviolet light because the increase of Vitamin D helped to cure cases of this disease. That is why there were so many sanatoriums opened. They helped to control the spread of TB and also treat their patients with extended periods of sunlight and ultra-violet light to increase the amount of Vitamin D being absorbed in order to strengthen and fight TB. This was the preferred method of treatment until the development of streptomycin in 1947. The correlation between a strong immune system(vitamin D fortified) and the ability of the body to resist or fight Tuberculosis was clearly recognized by the use of these treatments. Even today, this link is still being recognized. Please read the following paragraph from a recent report on Vitamin D and Tuberculosis. "The Institute of Medicine released a report on Vitamin D in 2010 that studied the North American population needs for Vitamin D. The evaluators could not state conclusively that low levels of Vitamin D increased the risk for infections but recommended rigorously conducted studies to answer the question. The data in the literature are not 100% conclusive, but there appears to be increasing evidence to support the role of Vitamin D in its role to strengthen the body’s response to tuberculosis. The potential mechanism is as follows: Vitamin D triggers macrophages, which are a key line of defense against microbial pathogens, to produce a molecule called “cathelicidin”. Cathelicidin kills bacteria, viruses, and fungi, and it is thus one of the body’s natural defense mechanisms against microbes. Essentially, Vitamin D triggers a natural “anti-bacterial response” by this action within macrophages. It is hard not to be enthusiastic at the possibility of such a built-in mechanism against infectious diseases like TB."
Here is the link to the entire article. www.cap-tb.org/blog/medicine-sun-vitamin-d-and-body%E2%80%99s-natural-tb-drugI am certainly not claiming that Charlie had TB. My point was that if Charlie had Vitamin D resistant rickets, where his body was unable to metabolize the vitamin D it was receiving from any and all sources, then Charlie's immune system left him vulnerable to many things, not just tuberculosis but also things like pneumonia. Charlie getting a simple cold could rapidly turn into pneumonia because his immune system was weakened. Charlie supposedly had a cold that night. How serious might that cold really have been? After Betty discovered Charlie missing and told CAL about it, they returned upstairs. Lindbergh then sent Betty downstairs to get Whateley. Betty said to Elsie that Charlie was gone. Elsie thought she meant that Charlie had died, not went missing. Why would Elsie think such a thing unless Charlie's condition was more serious than just a cold. Elsie had been assisting Anne in taking care of Charlie that final weekend. She knew what his condition was. Dead...from a cold??? I still think you are jumping to conclusions prematurely, when you claim that there is a cause and effect relationship between Vitamin D deficiency (rickets) and tuberculosis. You will not find any such statement in Harrison's "Principles of Internal Medicine," at least in my most current edition which is admittedly about a decade old. It is considered the gold standard of medical textbooks, with well over 2000 small-print pages. (BTW, by contrast, there is a definitive cause and effect relationship between e.g., AIDS and TB, alcoholism and TB, and even smoking and TB.) The fact that TB sanitarium patients were frequently given a sunlight and clean air regimen, and were exposed to lamps of various types, does not prove that these treatments had s statistically positive effect on the course of the TB in these pre-streptomycin years. To establish that, you needed controlled studies, where one group of TB patients received these treatments and a control group did not, and the ultimate fate of the two groups was compared. To the best of my knowledge, no one in that era ever published reliable data to indicate that the "sunlight and clean air" regimen worked. More broadly, there were a lot of medical treatments attempted before proven updated treatments were developed, which in retrospect were useless at the time. (One infamous example would be the use of leeches to suck "bad blood" out of a patient with a serious infection.) I would say that the chief purpose of TB sanitariums in the pre-streptomycin era, as it turned out, was not to administer statistically effective treatment to the patient (remember that although over 50% of TB patients died within five years of diagnosis, the disease was non-lethal in a significant minority whose immune systems, for whatever reason, contained the infection enough to survive) but to relieve the patient's family of the fear of contagion from the afflicted family member. As to the article you linked to, it is NOT from a reputable medical journal. (What country is it from?)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 20:16:48 GMT -5
I still think you are jumping to conclusions prematurely, when you claim that there is a cause and effect relationship between Vitamin D deficiency (rickets) and tuberculosis. I think there is a misunderstanding here. I will try to be more clear. I don't think rickets causes TB. Rickets is an indicator of a serious vitamin D deficiency. If the vitamin D deficiency is severe enough the immune system is compromised making a person more vulnerable to infections, one of them being the TB bacterium. You can be deficient in vitamin D and not have rickets. There are other very serious conditions that someone can have that keep the body from metabolizing vitamin D properly. Its about vitamin D levels, not rickets. Not everyone who had TB in the past died from it. Sanatoriums did help some people to recover. Vitamin D helps to strengthen the immune system and this is why sunlight and sunlamps were used to treat TB cases as well as rickets. TB usually affects the lungs but it can affect other parts of the body such as the brain, the kidneys and the spine. Here is a link to a 2013 study that was done using vitamin D to treat TB. This clinical study report is from the National Center For Biotechnology Information, US National Library of Medicine, based in Bethesda Maryland. It shows very promising results concerning Vitamin D and TB. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23331510
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 20:23:36 GMT -5
Thanks so much for this information about Supplees. It sounds like they were a rather large dairy. This is good because I was trying to ascertain whether the milk they delivered was pasteurized or raw farm milk from local farms. Since this is a large milk producing dairy, I am sure the milk would have been processed. I appreciate you researching this for me, Norma.
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Post by stella7 on Sept 4, 2016 2:26:33 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 11:45:25 GMT -5
Another dairy in the NJ area that I can look into. Nice find. Thanks for locating this!!
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Post by stella7 on Sept 5, 2016 12:16:10 GMT -5
Amy, this was the dairy that supplied Supplees, it was quite a large operation, I remember when it closed and housing developments were built on the farmland. There was another dairy operation on Witherspoon St called Alpha Dairy and another local one called Deckers. If CJr had TB, he may have contracted it while in Maine where they more likely sold raw unpasteurized milk. I'm only surmising this because it was more rural and less populated.
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
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Post by Aimee on Sept 14, 2016 12:16:32 GMT -5
My dad never had TB, but I believe the baby they found in the woods did. If there was any involvement with Isador Fisch, (along side with Dr.Van Ingen.)chopping off limbs for the founding, Fisch then contracted TB. My dad did have deformed left toes (I suppose from rickets) and had a Vitamin D deficiency his entire life. Let's not confuse the two.
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dave
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Post by dave on Sept 15, 2016 9:02:31 GMT -5
Has everyone given up on the book? No more comments or questions? Ain 't got mine, you got yours?
I think I'm going to look into getting my money back!
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Post by Michael on Sept 15, 2016 16:38:17 GMT -5
I think I'm going to look into getting my money back! Dave, Just call them up. If it hasn't shipped I can't see why they wouldn't give you a refund.
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Post by stella7 on Sept 16, 2016 11:27:41 GMT -5
Amy, my father-in-law remembered the name Suplee but nothing about them, but he said Castania's on Nassau St was a bigger firm later a restaurant at 154 Nassau and Rockwood was a dairy on Alexander St. You can often find Rockwood bottles for sale.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 18:13:59 GMT -5
Amy, my father-in-law remembered the name Suplee but nothing about them, but he said Castania's on Nassau St was a bigger firm later a restaurant at 154 Nassau and Rockwood was a dairy on Alexander St. You can often find Rockwood bottles for sale. Thanks for talking to your father-in-law about Suplee's. It seems there were many dairies in New Jersey. I did some checking on Maine dairies like you suggested in an earlier post to me. What I learned is that there was a large dairy named Oakhurst in Portland, Maine. In 1933, this dairy became the first dairy in America to start testing their milk for tuberculosis. Although pasteurizing milk was being done for some time, it took a number of years to figure out the proper time-temperature combination to kill M. Tuberculosis in milk. Heating milk to 63.5 C degrees for 30 minutes became the most widely used combination. New Equipment designs were applied for use as high-temperature short time (HTST) pasteurization methods. Then in 1933, the first HTST pasteurization standards were included in the United States Public Health Service Milk Ordinance and Code. Charlie's pediatrician, Dr. Philip Van Ingen knew well and understood the danger contaminated milk could be for children. As early as 1914 he was involved with the investigation of Bovine tuberculosis. Charlie was in good hands as far as milk goes as long as Lindbergh didn't get involved.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Oct 30, 2016 12:40:51 GMT -5
My dad came into my dream the other night. When I woke up I couldn't remember where we were or what we did. All I could remember is that we had fun. I think we must have done alot of things together in many different places.. His spirit lives on.
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dave
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Post by dave on Oct 31, 2016 9:19:57 GMT -5
Please tell me you don't have a drivers licence and you don't go out in public alone.
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
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Post by Aimee on Oct 31, 2016 13:48:04 GMT -5
Please tell me you don't have a drivers licence and you don't go out in public alone. Yes..I do go out in public alone. No I don't discuss this board with ordinary people....and yes...I do have a Drivers License...so I can drive YOU crazy. lol
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jack7
Major
Der Führer
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Post by jack7 on Nov 19, 2016 6:22:49 GMT -5
Hi Aimee:
Maybe your astuteness can help me answer something!
I get a lot of emails from, for example, "lonely Russian women want to contact you." Do you think these women are interested in the Lindbergh crime? Maybe they have wondered for years if Charles really did hide Charlie as one of his pranks, and want to really find the answer. Should I tell them about the new and long awaited book which finally answers that compelling question?
Why do these women want my credit card number before I can ease them of their loneliness?
Keep in touch, Jack
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
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Post by Aimee on Nov 29, 2016 14:52:32 GMT -5
Looks like Orville Wilson with my dad.
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Post by hurtelable on Nov 30, 2016 22:33:09 GMT -5
To Aimee:
(1) Where did you find that photo you claim is of Orville Wilson? Is it from your father's personal collection?
(2) Can you post some known photos of Mr. Wilson for comparison purposes?
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
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Post by Aimee on Dec 12, 2016 16:26:21 GMT -5
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
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Post by Aimee on Dec 12, 2016 16:27:14 GMT -5
I have never seen any published photos of Mr. Wilson without his hat...please let me know if anyone finds one. Yes, the above photo was one of my dad's. Thank you.
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 12, 2016 19:51:23 GMT -5
I have never seen any published photos of Mr. Wilson without his hat...please let me know if anyone finds one. Yes, the above photo was one of my dad's. Thank you. I suppose that the only public photos available of Orville Wilson were taken right after he and William Allen discovered the body in the New Jersey woods. He had his very brief moment of fame, then faded back into the obscurity he came from. So happens he was wearing a hat at that particular time, so we may never a photo of him without a hat. Just wondering whether NJSP might have a better photo of him, maybe even a mug shot, since they held a press conference in which Wilson and Allen participated. In the meantime, without considerable technical expertise, it would be impossible to compare the known photos of Wilson with the man standing next to the little boy purported to be Aimee's father.
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