jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 21, 2010 9:23:48 GMT -5
Regarding events just before the St. Raymond's payoff near Condon's Home: "Special Agent Lackey, in a stakeout across the street, failed to observe Charles Lindbergh and John F. Condon as they exited 2974 Decatur Avenue, carrying a wooden box containing $ 50,000 ransom as well as a package in which twenty thousand dollars was wrapped. Nor did he (they) notice CAL & JFC get into Al Reich's Ford coupe - a car "John" (CJ) might have seen when he met with Condon at Woodlawn Cemetery - and leave." Not only did Lackey miss the departure of CAL and Jafsie but two other pursuit agents waiting nearby to be alerted missed them as well. They all also evidently missed seeing a taxi (though researchers differentiate about whether a taxicab was actually seen) pull up in front of Condon's house and a man approach and subsequently leave that house. This is from Behn, "LTC," pp. 145, 42, etc, and is roughly covered in other books as well.. Behn claimed to have access to FBI files. Are there other FBI files regarding St. Raymond's? Are they still classified? Agent Lackey claimed to have seen the pair return with two black bags ( the pair had not yet been to Mrs. Morrow's so what was in the black bags? - one could have contained the $ 20K, but the other?) but is it reasonable to simply accept that the three agents did not see them leave (1st time), or the probable taxi, or the man come to and depart from the front door? It's not clear whether Lackey instructed the other agents to follow them at that (2nd) time - pursuit agents missing or dead? If the man who delivered the second "to go" note clandestinely delivered it (i.e. no vehicle, sneak around house or whatever), that would presume a foreknowledge of the contents of the note, and remember, this was the delivery person Condon did not confront, and barely described. What if the blood on the ransom bills got there from a never before disclosed confrontation between CJ et. al. and Feds, and the bills became wet when the kidnappers attempted to wash the blood off. I recall, but could not find, Rick's old post about an FBI agent being killed and his wondering if this was the same one that was involved with TLC. Was that Lackey? An agent Lackey was killed in KC in '34 or so but not sure if he's the same one.
|
|
|
Post by rick3 on Feb 21, 2010 23:05:53 GMT -5
Interesting post Jack....SueCam and I just discussion John Fogarty: MANHASSET, L.I., Dec. 24 -- John Fogarty, a private detective and friend of both Colonel Henry Breckinridge and Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh, died here tonight while dining in a restaurant.... below mentions the 2 black suitcases on a payoff to L.I.:
FOGARTY, John A.—private investigator employed from the start by Breckenridge?: Fogarty found a Long Island bootlegger who had paid Curtis a substantial bribe to obtain favor in Norfolk rumrunning circles?. Reprtedly went on some ransom payment w/ CAL and Jafsie with money in 2 black suitcases? Also, rumrunner who identified Harry Fleischer on yacht south of Norfolk told Fogarty? Fogarty knew all about the rumrunner connection on March 26, 1932…but JAF died before the year was out? Probably murdered? Positive identification of Harry Fleischer/ 3-26-32. Talked to rumrunner who identified Harry Fleisher on high riding schooner off of Sandy Hook. Connects to Atlantic Highlands, Horseshoe Cover, and Chesapeak Bay. Member of Lindbergh household since Charlie J. snateched. Dies in Manhasset LI on December 24th 1932? While eating dinner with Frank Gorman detective? Add to list of deaths by Major Pierce! Dec 25, 1932 ; John Fogarty, a private detective and friend of both Colonel Henry Breckinridge and Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh, died here tonight while dining in a ...Curtis Gang? I think Rosner ran Fogerty and Galvin out of Highfields...as per Gardener? Rosner was jealous or suspicious of them both? But Fogarty stay active on the case until after mystery baby found in May?
|
|
|
Post by wolf2 on Feb 22, 2010 17:18:26 GMT -5
i have a article of a new york policeman took his life that was assigned to the kidnap investigation. i will dig it out and post it
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 22, 2010 18:58:58 GMT -5
Rick - good find on the black suitcases.
As stated by those at CONDON'S house, CAL & JFC left for St. Raymond's with a box containing the $ 50K, and a package containing the twenty. According to Special Agent LACKEY who saw them (CAL & JFC only) come back, "they returned with two black bags". LACKEY further says they left again accompanied by BRECKENRIDGE, not mentioning unknowns, i.e. REICH and/or FOGARTY.
SPECIAL AGENT LACKEY was not killed at the June 17, 1933 Kansas City Massacre. Rather, according to a researcher, LACKEY'S "haphazard handling of a shotgun" resulted in the deaths of three men, accidently killing FRANK NASH, AGENT CAFFREY, and OFFICER HERMANSON. AGENT CAFFREY was FBI - probably pretty rare for Agent to kill Agent, but it seems for sure as SA LACKEY was the only one to fire shotgun and CAFFREY died by pellet. The Massacre was an ambush upon Agents transporting NASH.
It will be very interesting to see what you come up with, Wolf.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 24, 2010 6:49:22 GMT -5
There were (3) Law Men watching the house. (2) NY men, and Agent Lackey from the FBI. There's also the claim by Dr. Shoenfeld that Capt. Oliver was watching too. That makes (4). Next, add the laundry list of Newspaper men watching too (and I have that list).
None saw the 2nd Taxi Driver, or any car pull up for that matter.
Condon was a liar.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 25, 2010 17:31:13 GMT -5
Now do you believe that?
What, exactly did Dr. Condon say about the note delivery prior to his meeting with CJ at St, Raymond's Cemetary?
"During one examination Condon admitted he had briefly engaged the man (messenger or taxidriver) in conversation. The messenger said he had received the note at the corner of 188th Street and Marion Avenue from someone not richly dressed, wearing a brown fedora. This is quite remarkable, given that in other accounts, Condon arrived at the door only to glimpse a figure over his daughter Myra's (Hacker) shoulder disappearing down the porch steps. Yet he was able to notice that the man, who appeared to be about five-foot-six and wore long 'sideboards' in a Jewish style, had on a taxi hat and returned to a cab." No cab was observed by FBI, NYPD (MM) and a variety of reporters (MM) observering. Incidentaly, "Only he (Jafsie) could have let the press in on the preparations for the ransom payment; and as the phone taps revealed, only he courted their attention with flirtatious promises of a big story."
"He said later that he quite deliberately did not allow the man to enter his house. 'I opened the door and kept him out. I didn't call the taxi man in.'" Of cousre, why not - he certainly by now knew the importance of interviewing taxi drivers delivering notes.
"With the exception of his daughter (Myra Hacker) Condon's family had been opposed to his getting involved in what was now becoming a lifestyle for Jafsie."
"He even said he did not remember his daughter being there that night." Myra claimed to have been there and to have seen the deliveryperson "through the glass." No deliveryperson was observed by above mentioned watchers.
Would Myra lie more to protect her looney Father or . . . her husband?
All quotes above from Gardner.
|
|
|
Post by rick3 on Feb 25, 2010 19:08:01 GMT -5
jack....not really...why you say...because Jafsie is not credible--hes more incredi-bull? Even his lies are half-truths?
With JFC you get way too much detail, but never logical or adds up?
There was too much timelag, too many ransom notes, too much delay and footdragging, 2 black bags and one wooden box? If they reallly wanted Charlie back...they would have paid at Woodlawn after confirming the secret symbol. Also, there was no shortage of Morrow/JP Morgan money to pay out from day 1-30? All this proves the lie and the hoax....Anne must have known too or she alone would not let the two of them act this stupid.
Makes you suspect there were back channel negotiations--maybe through Malone and Madden? They could keep a secret.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 25, 2010 19:42:23 GMT -5
Exactly, Rick!
JFC is THE dead end, I am trying to establish that.
Now MYRA, however, hasn't really been looked at. Her husband has ties. What if MYRA was the bump that bumped JAFSIE?
Personally I'd wonder why a 30ish daughter left her family to go on some excuriion alone with her father to an unusual (did anyone ever say who the Condons friends were in Panama?) country. And her husband (an architect?) supposedly drew up the plans for the ransom remittance box - PLEEEASE - is this all some Condon family joke?
Clues like blood on the ransom bills - could have been Myra's for all anyone knew - at that point they didn't even care.
If it is the big joke, it's certainly been bought for a long while.
If you're interested let me know and I'll tell you what I think by e. I don't like being bashed and called a whiner on here by carpenters. By the way, whatever happened to the Carpenters? Mmmmm aids?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2010 7:24:08 GMT -5
Well, consider what Jafsie first said about who was there when this ghost showed up with the 2nd "taxi" note. Then later who said they were there who Jafsie didn't mention originally.
|
|
|
Post by rick3 on Feb 26, 2010 8:24:48 GMT -5
Comon Jack--quit your whining and get with the program:
BRH/ladder/BRH/ladder/BRH/ladder/BRH/ladder...you know the drill! You know the mantra!
Quit picking on po olde Pat-riot Jafsie Con-don and his family! Its a wonder his lies & deceptions lasted 72 days let alone 72 years! Remember--you can fool at least 60%the people ALL the t ime![saddam = 9-1-1]
CAL and Condon were dragging thier feet and trying to create thier next delay out of whole cloth on the fly? Whoever heard of a 30 day payoff? The "mony was redy" all 30 days...18 times advertised exact? But waite...Ralph Hacker, Myra's hubby, has to design a wooden box when only a packeti was required--eg wrap it in paper? Then Abe has to build it out of 5 ply-wood? All of a sudden the wooden box is more important than CJr?!@##$%^
All this would be laughable if folks didnt take it seriously? Someone is fooling someone and I think its US?
If you really wanted to complicate matters further you could try and connect Ralph Hacker to Leo Rodale, Willie Krippendorf, Abe Wegner, Geisslers, Liepolds, Jane Faulkner and Fort Lee, NJ and the Sha-toe...but I dont think that will be the way we want to go unless you want to believe that Jafsie is covering for his own kid--napper...and that CAL wants to aide and abet in the cover-up?
"Its going"! If CAL and JFC arnt covering for a family member, then they are just killing time to get to dumbest end game in history...$50K paid out on less than nothing? Even Madden said "dont pay the gang in the Bronx--they have nothing"
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Feb 26, 2010 9:07:04 GMT -5
Yeah. How's that everyone but BRH approach going, anyway? Be sure to let us all know when it get's you somewhere.
Jack, I missed that "bashing" comment. Give me a break. If you guys feel oppressed by any of my replies, just tell me and I'll ignore them. You can post to your hearts delight without any concern a reply by me. OK? No need to do emails or that silly smiting thing. Personally, I enjoy debate and challenge. It's how I learn. I also like to see how much conviction is behind a statement.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Feb 26, 2010 20:18:12 GMT -5
That's about what I expected. Pathetic.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 26, 2010 20:31:26 GMT -5
All cool Kevkon! Ur close to pissing me off though. So you enjoy debate and challenge - why not stick to the issues?
The issue is Myra Condon. Do you, and Rick, and Michael on the above statements somehow all absolve Myra Condon of any confluence in the Lindbergh Crime?
Perhaps there is a conspiracy - involving all of you - of course Rick can always claim he was chasing some man named Bergman.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 26, 2010 20:50:59 GMT -5
Don't jive me Rick - listen to Rick!
Certain things that Rick says are applicable only to the kidnapping - listen!
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 26, 2010 20:57:25 GMT -5
What if Lindbergh returned with the body of the child?
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 26, 2010 22:28:27 GMT -5
"Yeah, How's that everyone but approach going anyway?" Be sure to let us know when it gets you somewhere.
That was by Kevkon. Is that a group support thing? Are we together on this or trying to solve it by ourselves? I resent that implication and many others by Kevkon who seems to perhaps all to be some kind of strange crylinger that sits around waiting for others to make a mistake and moves in, This has happened before and I've had to nicey back - look back in your files _ but I'm not backing this time. Kevkon is a one dimensional basher who depletes the rest of this forum and I know you like him Michael, so that's my stance and I feel he should be thrown out. I do hearby respectfuctaly request that Kevkon be extradited from this forum. HaHa _ just jokin - how you doin Kev?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Feb 27, 2010 9:04:46 GMT -5
Jack, I really have no interest in defending my responses. All I will say is this;If you have something worth posting to the world, then you should have the confidence and integrity to support what you say and the understanding that others may not agree with it. Is that a hard concept to understand? I notice this tendency to turn everything into something personal. I also notice that it's usually employed as a diversion. The ironic thing is that I was purposely avoiding the exchange between you and Rick. It was both of your backhanded comments that caused me to respond. So if you girls want Michael to ban me, go ahead and ask him. I already offered to voluntarily stay off all of your threads. So go on and enlighten the world, Mein Führer.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Feb 27, 2010 9:21:03 GMT -5
I honestly do not suspect Myra of anything other then trying to protect her Father.... or perhaps her husband.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Feb 27, 2010 10:37:13 GMT -5
Only because you asked, Jack, I'll respond for the last time on this thread. No, I don't think Myra had any part in the crime. For the record, and I have had many an argument with Michael ( as well as Dr. Gardner) on the subject, I don't see Condon as a participant either. Yes, I agree he is a liar. I just see him as a drama queen who needs a lot of attention. That's not to say that I'm not open to any evidence to the contrary. But the problem with assessing Condon's actions is that it all becomes highly subjective. Since I have never heard a plausible theory on how he and Hauptmann could be involved together in the crime, I prefer to take all of his actions with a grain of salt.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 12:49:18 GMT -5
That's an oh, maybe, but... Realistically, as Rick points out, BRH wouldn't have hung at City Island with Condon on location. Realistically, no one would have sent so many ransom notes. Realistically CAL would not have stalled when his child was at stake. Realistically when Lindbergh saw Condon disappear going after an unknown man at St. Raymonds he would have wondered what was going on - but he didn't!
So lets filter realism out of the crime.
There is as much evidence to involve Myra Condon (Hacker) and her husband as has ever been presented against Fish, yet look how Fish has been looked at vs. Myra. Did Myra have a criminal record? I'll bet no one even knows - including M. What did she even look like - I've never seen a pic. So, though you both disregard her, she is an involved person and you don't have any clue about her.
This is the major point, and I really don't believe that Myra had anything to do with LKC. But what about the suspects Rick has brought up that are just shoved under the table? Don't you think that the prediction that Breckenridge would receive a note (with sig) deserves as much credence as Condon's receiving a note which gets all the ink? Don't you think a seer saying the body would be found on a nearby hill is somewhat relevant?
Rick's posts should be more closely analyzed because he is heading in the right direction. I expect that he and I will negotiate the final solution.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 12:54:09 GMT -5
For Rick
Yup Sadam = 911.
Lorie Mallory, the top intelligence agent in the administration at the time of the 1993 bombing of the WTC linked the perpetrator as an agent of Sadam.
Payback by Bushes!
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 12:58:48 GMT -5
I have never smited you Kevkon - I doubt anyone ever has.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 15:43:28 GMT -5
"Jack, I really have no interest in defending my respondences." Kevkon
And then he goes on for a long paragraph defending his responses. Come on! Michael buys this, but Rick and I don't.
Why not just shut up, Kevkon, and let us solve the crime. You did greatly on wood I'm told (not so sure what you did) but your criminalist technigues are very focused. So with you out, let Rick and myself argue about it, and Michael can moderate.
Now to moderate Michael - you have never commented upon Lindbergh's acceptance of the "Servince Medal" of NAZI Germany.
As a personal post - the only winner in the Lindbergh crime was NAZI Germany - a country Charles later went on to wed (?) in and father four children.
Question for Rick - if many people were involved, how were they all kept quiet? Specifically, why weren't the Reverend and the seer bumped off?
Did you know that Lindbergh was not anti-war, but rather an isolationist?
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 15:57:00 GMT -5
In defense of SPECIAL AGENT LACKEY, a retired FBI AGENT I spoke with said that LACKEY was not reprimanded as far as the Union Station or Kansas City Massacre was concerned. He stated that the only accusations against LACKEY were from writers.
LACKEY retired from the Breau in 1946 and went on to a sucessfull business career and became an investment banker.
LACKEY was a very proficient BI agent - now do you believe that he didn't see a car pull up to a place he was watching. And do you believe that he didn't send his associates to follow ?
PLEEESE!
So junk!
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 16:11:51 GMT -5
Calling Rick and I "girls."
That is Libel - good that it's on the net.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Feb 27, 2010 16:59:44 GMT -5
I do apologize for that, a bad habit from the Corps. It was certainly unfair to all of the woman who may have read it. In hindsight, think whacko or nut-job would have been more appropriate.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 17:13:39 GMT -5
Ur apology is accepted. Speaking of the corps, I was regular army - a time I don't like to remember. 1960 - 1970. We didn't call them girls - they were freaking jerks!
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 17:41:18 GMT -5
Nope - he called us girls again - that is specifically descrimination - sorry kevkon - u blasted! Libel!
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Feb 27, 2010 17:44:01 GMT -5
You were not a Marine, Kevkon - I looked you up - I was Army and you went to Canada!
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Post by mairi on Feb 27, 2010 19:25:12 GMT -5
To this Jack person
You use the "f" word on Michael's board?? What's wrong with your MOUTH, boy ?!!!
|
|