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Post by kate1 on Jun 26, 2017 9:03:42 GMT -5
Through the 1960's women wore gloves to every formal function, i.e. Church, teas, etc. I'm sure Anne Lindbergh owned gloves. Why not simply have her put on a pair of gloves and slit the envelope. Makes more sense than tramping around in the dark and destroying evidence, unless that's what you were trying to do. I don't have CAL's hair trigger mind but it makes more sense to me.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 26, 2017 4:21:38 GMT -5
Although I don't believe Hauptmann was the kidnapper, I do think if we are to believe the notes and CJ the ransom was to be divided between up to 5 people. That would increase the risk for discovery and also decrease the reward for these undiscovered people. JJ Faulkner had a hefty amount himself.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 26, 2017 4:13:22 GMT -5
He was also the lookout at Woodlawn cemetery. The woman at the bakery with the ransom bill?
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Post by kate1 on Jun 25, 2017 16:48:05 GMT -5
And Warburg lived in Connecticut.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 25, 2017 7:05:23 GMT -5
During much of these discussions there seems to be questions regarding CAL's personality. Seems like there's a range of opinion on his functioning as a person, all the way from introverted and immature to narcississtic and controlling. I think who this man really is, aside from legend, tells us a lot about this crime.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 24, 2017 5:43:41 GMT -5
Michael, I realize that that post was not specifically meant for me so I hope you dont mind about my commenting.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 24, 2017 5:40:37 GMT -5
Michael, can you explain the fact there was only one footprint observed within the immediate vicinity of the ladder, which was raised by at least two kidnappers? Let me start by pointing out that Lt. Keaten told Agent Sisk in the summer of 1934 that the NJSP were " reasonably certain" two people committed the crime. One climbing the ladder and the other at the base of the ladder. Sisk called him the most knowledgeable person about the case he had ever spoken with. (see TDC page 349). So with this in mind, did Lt. Keaten think they floated? Or perhaps he believed they walked backwards? No. They carried the ladder, two people, walking on the boardwalk without stepping off. When Wolfe and Williamson arrived at 10:30 P.M., they were in charge of that scene. Although being Hopewell Borough Police Officers and outside of their geographical jurisdiction, they were the closest police officials in that rural area and thus responded in their official capacities while awaiting the arrival of the NJSP. Lindbergh made both Wolfe and Williamson aware of the existence of the note almost immediately. Although it appears from all of the subsequent investigative statements that Lindbergh was instructing everyone not to touch anything until the NJSP arrived, I can state with absolute certainty that if Harry Wolfe had thought it was in the best interest for the safety of the child to immediately open and read the note, THAT NOTE WOULD HAVE BEEN OPENED. No one, and I can't over emphasize the words no one, intimidated my great Uncle Harry Wolfe. I am going to give you my two cents here so please comment on my perspective.... There have been portrayals over the years that these men got there, thought they were in charge, but were then pushed aside by the NJSP upon their arrival. This is a false narrative. It appears to me Wolfe and Williamson were immediately advised that the State Police were on the way. In my mind they knew it wasn't their jurisdiction, wouldn't want to be in charge of this, and were probably relieved to hear the Troopers were coming. If you read Williamson's testimony in Flemington he testifies that, in essence, he did not have experience in taking fingerprints etc. I agree that when Lindbergh announced nothing was to be touched, these men were probably in agreement with this position. What Cop wouldn't be? But that's not the issue. The issue is that Troopers couldn't believe the "restraint" Lindbergh exemplified by not immediately tearing it open. Then once it is dusted there's no prints. Next, once the State Police did arrive, both Williamson and Wolfe assisted by following Cpl. Wolf's instructions. They weren't "cast aside" and in fact, these men continued to assist with the Hopewell area searches and investigations. I would like to say my grandfather was a sheriff in a moderate Midwest county during the 1930's. He had one investigator and they were sharp. That said, the New Jersey State Police were a very new organization. Schwarzkopf had no law enforcement background when he was given the position to head this group. He didn't defer to experienced people as far as I've read but kept close to CAL and said he would "break any law for this man". Lindbergh and his friends were running this investigation. The "awe" of Lindbergh must have been something incredible! I have always wondered when Anne realized what she had done.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 23, 2017 18:41:27 GMT -5
I can't help wondering why the "kidnappers" warned Lindbergh not to notify the police, especially when so many LE thought it was an inside job.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 23, 2017 9:53:53 GMT -5
I don't know what other dynamics were in play here that kept Lindbergh at Highfields or which prohibited Breckinridge from delivering the sleeping suit there, so really can't comment on why he waited that long. Are you fully aware of all contributing factors to be able to decide in your own mind? At the same time I have to think he would have been very sensitive towards the need to maintain secrecy and yes, he would have avoided reporters at all costs. Apparently, no reporters did follow him and discover where he was going or if they did, they were somehow convinced to not report the story. So it would appear he accomplished what he set out to do. I had never thought about it before but why didn't someone take the package to Hopewell. Wasn't there a "headquarters" in the garage? At this point I'd wouldn't want anymore people involved than necessary especially Condon!
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 18:02:39 GMT -5
I imagine their children are just beautiful!
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 17:59:14 GMT -5
Thank you Aimee!
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 15:42:28 GMT -5
Connection to Condon and the Temple people....Fisch and the Pie Company? Don't believe there was any relationship between Red and Richard!
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 15:20:45 GMT -5
Hurp, my typo! I want to get this right. Breck called CAL around 10:30 AM on March 16th. CAL arrived at Condon's house 15 hours later at 1:30 AM on March 17th. (The Case That Never Dies, pg. 69 & 70 and Jafsie Tells All, pg. 97, 100.) That doesn't seem reasonable. It's hard to imagine one Dr. Dentons size two looking much different than another. Don't understand why a kidnapper wouldn't have sent the other shirt except it's one important point of identifying a decayed corpse if anyone lose but CAL was doing it. Where were the diapers?
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 6:18:29 GMT -5
He stopped in the Bronx to eat on the way to Connecticut. Another coincidence. Also, see paralells between Red and RBH. Both were in the country illegally and both were beaten by cops and neither admitted to involvement; but one was released and the other one wasn't. Can think of others but might take too long; maybe in the "Bronx Connection"?
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 6:10:27 GMT -5
Just remembered being able to ask an operator to call back with the amount of the charge after a long distance call was made. ALL long distance calls at that time were made through an operator, no direct calls. Why go out on a "raw and rainy" night to make a call that you needed coins for. Sounds like it wasn't a brief chat, according to Whately. For that matter, who goes driving around for 2 hours using up gas, in that kind of weather?
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Post by kate1 on Jun 22, 2017 6:02:58 GMT -5
Think it was Gardner that said Junges offered to let Red use their phone to call Hopewell that night but he preferred to use a public phone. I wondered about that. If a public phone could be traced. In those days coins were used for long distance Calls and were relatively expensive to make. This from a guy who only had seven dollars and had to pay for gas to Connecticut. Long distant calls were made through an operator but were records really kept? On a public phone? Why were a group of Scandinavian Republicans interested in Red???
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Post by kate1 on Jun 21, 2017 18:32:22 GMT -5
Red Johnson and the Junges are people I don't believe were thoroughly investigated. Betty, Red and the Junges all leave the country soon after the LKC... only Red's departure is supposedly involuntary. Deportation is much preferred to prison time, wouldn't you say? A love triangle has motivated many a person - Red for Betty and Betty for CAL? In some book the Junges were referred to as among the wealthiest families in Hamburg before the depression - what some people will do to return to the wealthy style to which they are accustomed... Don't forget that according to the FBI, Junges, Red and Ellerson all lived at the same address at some point... The Junges and Red were alibis for each other for two hours the night of the kidnapping. Also the table message talked about wealthy from Hamburg. I don't know how much this was investigated. I think it was discovered by Mark at the museum.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 21, 2017 18:24:33 GMT -5
He knew it was a "kidnapping" because he told Anne "they" had stolen the baby. He was able to tell by looking at the crib.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 20, 2017 14:23:51 GMT -5
Michael, I remembered what Whately said about Betty not helping with the housework but I know she did wash the baby's clothes. It wouldn't seem abnormal for her to disinfect the nursery because of the cold. But then why not say so. The report is interesting to me because the baby's length is listed as 29 inches again. I thought that was a printing error made when the missing fliers were put out. Someone gave that number very early it seems, which isn't even on the chart for a normal 20 month old. Whateley was very specific in his accusation against Betty so we'll have to disagree that she'd do that without any instruction. I believe him. She had been terminated from an earlier position in Michigan for being "slip-shod" don't forget! That's in my book too (page 92). "History" brain-washed everyone to believe she was this great person and the facts have a terrible way of ruining that idea don't they? Anyway, if Elsie had wiped the nursery down for the reasons John outlined I don't see Lindbergh getting angry unless it was part of the plot he didn't want explained away. Know what I mean? Whatever happened here comes from the mind of someone doing what he/she thinks would be expected had the crime occurred. So wiping down the Nursery may have been part of that, and if Lindbergh was behind it all then he wouldn't want that narrative interfered with. But if not, I cannot see him upset by someone doing their job. Yes, and the first order CAL gave was not to touch the note because of possible fingerprints! Emphasizing the importance of fingerprints that weren't there. Just seemed staged and waiting to unfold the "narrative"
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Post by kate1 on Jun 20, 2017 13:36:18 GMT -5
Michael, I remembered what Whately said about Betty not helping with the housework but I know she did wash the baby's clothes. It wouldn't seem abnormal for her to disinfect the nursery because of the cold. But then why not say so. The report is interesting to me because the baby's length is listed as 29 inches again. I thought that was a printing error made when the missing fliers were put out. Someone gave that number very early it seems, which isn't even on the chart for a normal 20 month old.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 20, 2017 6:24:43 GMT -5
Possibly so! Maybe the staff wasn't aware of the fingerprinting until much later and then too frightened to speak up. If I'd been law enforcement I think that would have been an appropriate time to start questioning the staff. Probably they thought so too! Could have been an innocent explanation but if so way not say? Enjoying your thoughts on this....thanks.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 18, 2017 9:28:16 GMT -5
John, that's a good question, and I don't know. Reading most authors I notice it's indicated, "because of the weather". Betty came from Englewood in the rain. So many books vary in small details that I think may be important details. In the Ross book he states on Monday CAL phoned Anne from NY to tell her he would stay in Englewood that night and would drive to Hopewell Tuesday after work. Also read that Anne was "exhausted" from caring for the baby, so why not call Betty to come Monday. Not to go off the subject too much but in looking for info about the weather, I pulled out Fishers book. It seems to me glaring that ln every way CAL ran this show, and I kept thinking why did he call the police? It seems he felt that he was much more competent than they were about every aspect, so why bring them in in? Was it to obtain fingerprints? Surprisingly, there were none. The note was very brief but the one thing it did instruct was to NOT call the police. Again, surprisingly the one thing CAL did do. Great way to start a kidnapping investigation. I'm not sure what happened to that baby but I don't think he was kidnapped.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 17, 2017 6:51:07 GMT -5
Rain and "raw" weather were the reasons baby wasn't returned to Next Day Hill. Always seemed strange when cars seemed readily available to bring the nurse there. Anne was pregnant and it would seem sensible that both she and baby would want to be where they lived and near to doctors.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 15, 2017 6:58:50 GMT -5
Red Johnson and the Junges are people I don't believe were thoroughly investigated.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 14, 2017 15:26:09 GMT -5
I agree about attention to detail. Recently read about fingerprints on a white crib. I think the crib in Maine was white but the one in New Jersey was dark. Probably doesn't matter but these sort of things drive me crazy. The woman at bakery was well dressed and in a limo. How many limos were in anyone town during the depression? Seems like something that could have been easily and thoroughly checked. Don't trust the police to do a competent job in many cases.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 8, 2017 19:38:07 GMT -5
If Hauptmann didn't believe it was bad money why didn't he just take it to the bank and exchange it saying he inherited it or found it or something. Why go to a lot of trouble to very nicely hide it in the garage? Why not tell Anna about it? Why carry only one bill at a time with him? Why be exchanging big bills for small purchases? Hiring multiple kidnappers and, as stated above, having the whole CAL house involved in the crime borders on the aliens from outer space solution. How many people would have to be involved to accomplish the crime then? It seems very blatant that this and other crimes seem unsolved because of a minimum of perpetrators - nobody to talk. I'm reminded when I hear Ollie and his wife were involved and this giant conspiracy, of an interview I saw with Jim Garrison, DA for New Orleans, about the J. Kennedy assassination. Dick Cavet says to Garrison, "now according to your theory, you believe that sixteen people were shooting at President Kennedy in front of the book depository?" And Garrison said, "yes." I believe it was illegal by the time he discovered the money to possess more than $100 in gold certificates. Walking into a bank with $14K is going to arouse suspicion and certainly lead to arrest. Notice he hid the money in the garage and not the arguably more secure location of somewhere within the apartment; obviously he didn't want her to know about it or accidentally discover it, so he certainly isn't going to tell her about it. She might have harped on him to give it to Pinkus Fisch or some other "honest" means of dealing with the excess over what Isidor "owed" him, if she was even apprised of BRH's dealings with the Fischs. There are roughly the same number of people required for participation in a conspiracy led by CAL as Wilentz needed to provide false/perjured testimony against BRH. Who do you think would have an easier time assembling their team? CAL and the well-known cast within the household (wife and servants) or Wilentz (Perrone/Whited/CAL/Condon/Hochmuth/Wolf/Barr) Maybe he was ashamed/embaressed and didn't want Anna to know he'd lost so much money...and that was a lot of money then. When the gas station guy said something about the gold note he didn't say, whoa, that's not ransom money, he thought he of illegal bills. The bills were soaking wet and they needed to be separated. Imagine there was that much room in an upstairs apt. for that. As for the single bill, maybe he'd passed several more earlier in the month; $20 went a lot further in those days.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 7, 2017 11:27:27 GMT -5
[How many of these (or any other 1930's kidnappings) were infants or children under two years of age as the victim, successfully taken from their home while their parents, other occupants, and a dog were present and without witnesses or fingerprints left at the scene?] - Scathma The Blakely Coughlin case is interesting in it's similarities to LKC. A 13 month old blond curly haired boy, taken from his second storey home by a man using a ladder he found at a nearby construction sight. This was at night with the family present. Apparently he decided to kidnap the child after walking past the house one evening and observing the family. He says he smothered the child accidently. The body was never recovered. This happened in Norristown Pennsylvania in 1920, and I sometimes wonder if that was some how and inspiration for the LKC events/staging, despite the time difference. The perpetrator was eventually caught as a lone wolf, however I think he changed his story several times and I'm unclear if he had assistance. I'm sure Michael will know a lot more about this case that I do, and will correct any errors above. That is interesting. Never heard of this before but it does suggest the crime might have been used as a model. I think the baby was not taken down that ladder (for obvious reasons) but since the Coughlin crime heist worked it could be made plausible in TLC.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 6, 2017 19:11:09 GMT -5
Woman in the bakery with ransom money, Red flees to Conn. Immediately after baby disappears, Fisch also goes after baby's body is found. Cayce, called in by CAL's people says baby was taken to Conn. Trying to find their destinations in Connecticut to see if there is any possible connection or not. Just curious. Red Johnsen didn't quite "flee" to Connecticut. His brother lived in West Hartford, CT and Betty Gow, I presume, told that to police. As to Fisch, what is the source that places him in Connecticut after the baby's body is found? What connections did Fisch have in Connecticut? I have no idea what Fisch's connections in Connecticut but he certainly seemed sneaky to me!
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Post by kate1 on Jun 6, 2017 19:05:55 GMT -5
Thank you for pulling these various events together. Cannot understand why the "baby's body" was found southeast of his home. Really feel he was placed there close to the time of discovery. There were no diapers at the scene and the body was not buried. In a farming area vultures would most likely have been spotted over something that was decomposing.
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Post by kate1 on Jun 6, 2017 3:27:42 GMT -5
Something about the disconnect of that night; how many rainy, windy nights was the baby at this house? Not too many I would imagine since he hadn't been there all that much altogether. I'm not sure anyone but Whatley's would know about the flapping shutters and their room was at the other end of the house. Betty seems to come the least of any of them; aren't we talking about just a handful of nights she would have spent there? And why did Elsie think the baby had died?? She seems the least suspect to me unless it's Anne. As far as sophistication of the kidnappers, why didn't they use the little homemade shirt in negotiations? Totally unique rather than the sleepers. For that matter why bury a body in "a shallow grave" unless the plan is that it's to be found quickly. Someone as daring and bold as these people could have returned to at least bury it deeper. Lots of excuses to be prowling around in the early days. Why was a kidnapper from New York headed toward the south? Mostly, nobody but CAL had any idea when he would arrive home that night and I think he liked it that way.
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