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Post by xjd on Feb 14, 2015 10:52:17 GMT -5
something just came to me as i was reading these recent comments. i've always wondered about CAL packing a pistol during the trial. makes sense he was armed during the ransom hand-off with Condon, but why the gun in court?
IF there was a faux kidnapping that involved both CAL and BRH, could Lindy have been so afraid of Richard spilling the beans in court that he would do something dramatic and violent? like shooting Hauptmann &/or himself? again, taking a heater to court is just one more oddity about CAL.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 14, 2015 11:35:56 GMT -5
You know, as "out there" as I consider myself to have gotten with the case, I don't think that one occurred to me! Would've been quite a scene, wouldn't it?? Personally, I think Lindbergh was packing to defend himself and Anne from the mob scene he knew Flemington would be: Better to have a gun and probably not need it, than need one and not have it. That being said, I don't think Lindbergh knew or had ever met Hauptmann before he saw him in the NYPD lineup (rather, I think Hauptmann was selected by someone Lindbergh knew), so I don't think Lindbergh could've predicted Hauptmann's actions in court. The only thing I think Lindbergh could know with pretty fair certainty was that Hauptmann wouldn't talk; that he couldn't, because otherwise his family would be in danger. But then again, you never really know what people will do under pressure and intense questioning, so I suppose the gun could've been an insurance policy of sorts: Hauptmann starts to crack, to go into dangerous territory for Lindbergh, and the grieving father just can't listen to any more and takes justice into his own hands. Given the atmosphere in the court and the fact that Lindbergh was worshiped, with the world's sympathy behind him, I can't imagine he'd have gotten more than a slap on the wrist...
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Post by Michael on Feb 14, 2015 19:30:54 GMT -5
To exemplify what I posted earlier in this thread, here is the only NJSP generated Report mentioning Dwight Morrow Jr. prior to Schwarzkopf's May 13th response to Crowley where he states DMJr. was "entirely eliminated.":
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Post by Michael on Feb 14, 2015 19:38:18 GMT -5
something just came to me as i was reading these recent comments. i've always wondered about CAL packing a pistol during the trial. makes sense he was armed during the ransom hand-off with Condon, but why the gun in court? IF there was a faux kidnapping that involved both CAL and BRH, could Lindy have been so afraid of Richard spilling the beans in court that he would do something dramatic and violent? like shooting Hauptmann &/or himself? again, taking a heater to court is just one more oddity about CAL. As I have come to know Lindbergh via the research, it seems to me he wouldn't want anyone to think he was "afraid" so either the gun isn't meant to be seen or he's wearing it as a form of bravado - perhaps something along the lines to show he holds equal standing with the Police. I've always been of the opinion he should have been afraid though.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Feb 15, 2015 12:25:17 GMT -5
Any interesting notes about Elisabeth? The relatives said that DM Jr.'s breakdowns were a family problem.
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Post by rebekah on Feb 15, 2015 20:41:59 GMT -5
First, thanks to Michael and Amy for getting the dimensions of the nursery to me. It's a fairly good-sized room for the purpose. (I measured it out in my living room. ) Also, in Michael's second post of the two floors, I noticed a straight shot out the door and down the stairway to the front hall. It could have been done that way and much easier than a crawl through the window (which I don't think happened). And from Amy: "For Charles, however, an institution is not the answer. He would be majorly concerned that Charlie might end up being found eventually, so he shares his concerns with a very close advisor and a different ending is arranged. The cover story of a kidnapping would stay the same but, by arrangement, Charlie will be killed instead. No one knows this aspect except Lindbergh." I agree, totally, about the 'close' advisor. Amy, who are you thinking of? Also, for anyone, the decomposition keeps coming back to me as illogical. The entire body from the neck down was skeleton. How is it that the head and face were so intact? Not to mention the remaining organs. How could such a difference occur in a body?
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Post by romeo12 on Feb 15, 2015 20:44:37 GMT -5
much easier but highly unlikely to take the baby out the front door with all those people in the house. I dont buy this at all
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 15, 2015 22:37:24 GMT -5
To Michael and All:
Though one can conclude that both Elisabeth and Dwight Jr. did have serious psychiatric problems from various sources available, I'd suspect that if either of the two were involved in the murder and/or kidnapping of Charles Jr., the odds would strongly favor Elisabeth as the one. Elisabeth had a more plausible motive - jealousy of her younger sister Anne - as outlined in Noel Behn's book and related to Behn by Gov. Hoffman's right hand man, Harry Green. Additionally, Elisabeth was in general interacting with Charlie much more than Dwight Jr. was, having Charlie in her class in the Montessori School and interacting immediately with him at the Morrow estate when the Lindberghs stayed in Englewood.
On the other hand, Dwight Jr. would have been 23 at the time of the crime, and, one would think, separated by larger distances from Charlie. He would either be institutionalized (less likely) or on campus as a student at the time (Harvard or Amherst - please clarify), a couple of hundred miles away from Highfields.
BTW, I've been able to dig up these biographical tidbits on Dwight Jr.: He lived to age 68 (longer than his much better known father), got married, and had three children. Can't find anything about professional or occupational activity on him, although one would presume that he could live off a sizeable inheritance. Still, in all, it would seem as if his problems with psychosis (possible manic-depressive) and the purported alcoholism possibly improved with age. He did not die particularly young, contrary to the ultimate fate of many with those issues in that time frame.
It would be interesting to get more biographical info on Dwight Jr.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 15, 2015 23:12:55 GMT -5
Rebekah, I think Amy and I are on the same page as to an organizer arranging much of this for Lindbergh. We've called him "Mr. X" in the past, for lack of a better or more imaginative name. Who this could be though? No idea. I thought it might be Breckinridge, but now I don't think so; not really in keeping with his character. And I think, as you say, given the layout you describe in the house, that it would've been much easier (not to mention quieter) to use the front door rather than climb through an upstairs window. That being said, I don't think CAL Jr. went out that way. I think one of the kidnappers slipped in through the front door, straight up into the nursery, and handed the body off through the window, before slipping back out the front door (or climbing out the window after handing the body off). And Romeo, yeah, we get it; you don't buy any of this at all, as you've said many times. My question is, why? What is so outrageously implausible here?
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Post by Michael on Feb 17, 2015 10:39:38 GMT -5
Any interesting notes about Elisabeth? The relatives said that DM Jr.'s breakdowns were a family problem. There were letters coming in claiming she was a "drug addict" but this was before she passed away. Having been sick and this fact concealed for some time then it makes sense something like "that" might leak out:
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Post by Michael on Feb 18, 2015 17:51:09 GMT -5
Also, I've posted this before, but this was found in Schwarzkopf's File and is in his handwriting:
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 18, 2015 18:38:06 GMT -5
To Michael:
Re your last post, the Schwarzkopf note:
(1) Is "E.M." Elizabeth Morrow or Elisabeth Morrow?
(2) What is the word preceding "only suspects"? Can't make it out.
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Post by Michael on Feb 18, 2015 18:49:08 GMT -5
1. Yes it's one or the other but I've always taken it to mean Elisabeth in light of what Harry Green told Behn.
2. I believe it's "Alec"
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Post by rebekah on Feb 18, 2015 19:00:56 GMT -5
Michael, who is "Alec"?
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Post by Michael on Feb 18, 2015 21:03:43 GMT -5
It was one of the codes names I've seen used to identify Lindbergh. I've also seen "Alex" which could just be a mis-spelling, and I've seen "Axle" used too.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 18, 2015 21:33:03 GMT -5
So... According to this Schwarzkopf note, both Anne's mother and sister "definitely knew the solution"? And what is meant by the phrase "Alec [Lindbergh] only suspects"?
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Post by garyb215 on Feb 18, 2015 22:23:44 GMT -5
This is solid stuff.
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Post by Michael on Feb 19, 2015 6:26:27 GMT -5
So... According to this Schwarzkopf note, both Anne's mother and sister "definitely knew the solution"? And what is meant by the phrase "Alec [Lindbergh] only suspects"? I've taken it to mean only those Suspects who are connected to the Lindbergh Family but I could be wrong. There were two pages of a note pad on this - here is the first: It appears like it's coming from someone else (maybe from a phone call?) and something he most likely wrote down in the beginning of the investigation. But it's interesting because he did write it down considering all that happened, and all that was going on.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 19, 2015 8:32:11 GMT -5
So, in this note, we have Schwarzkopf saying that this is some sort of internal family scandal, independent of the servants; that Anne's sister definitely knew what really happened; and that only those connected with the family should be investigated. Or could that last line mean only those Lindbergh considers suspects should be investigated? In any case, it's very interesting what Schwarzkopf's initial impressions were...
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 19, 2015 12:16:18 GMT -5
To Michael:
Re the last handwritten note you posted, first sentence: "Tell HNS that he should personally interview Ely Chilton."
Wouldn't "HNS" be H. Norman Schwarzkopf himself? Find that strange if Schwarzkopf is supposed to have been the writer of that note, telling himself to interview Chilton. And who was Chilton?
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Post by rebekah on Feb 19, 2015 14:32:37 GMT -5
Also, I've posted this before, but this was found in Schwarzkopf's File and is in his handwriting: The phrase "Alec only suspects". Is 'suspects' being used as a verb here, and not a noun? That's how I read it.
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Post by garyb215 on Feb 19, 2015 15:12:45 GMT -5
Has anyone read anything in reference to Elisabeth (sister of Anne) had a intimate relationship with Constance Chilton. Now I am not saying this is true or even open to consideration but it has been thrown out there in some review/book.
From this same source supposedly Charles in his dying last days confessed to something concerning Charles Jr. in 1932 to Anne . Is there any substance here?
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Post by Michael on Feb 19, 2015 17:34:44 GMT -5
So, in this note, we have Schwarzkopf saying that this is some sort of internal family scandal, independent of the servants; that Anne's sister definitely knew what really happened; and that only those connected with the family should be investigated. Or could that last line mean only those Lindbergh considers suspects should be investigated? In any case, it's very interesting what Schwarzkopf's initial impressions were... I could not say if these were his initial impressions, only that I find it interesting that he wrote this down then kept it to the point that it survived inside his file. If he felt this information was bogus then I don't think he writes it down so he's at least entertaining it at that time (and perhaps later too). Re the last handwritten note you posted, first sentence: "Tell HNS that he should personally interview Ely Chilton." Wouldn't "HNS" be H. Norman Schwarzkopf himself? Find that strange if Schwarzkopf is supposed to have been the writer of that note, telling himself to interview Chilton.
It's why I said above I think it's information coming in to him from somewhere else - like perhaps a phone call. So he's writing down, literally, what he is hearing or reading. What I can tell you is this is in his handwriting and came from his File. He penned out notes like this concerning Curtis's information as well so I have something to consider it against. Has anyone read anything in reference to Elisabeth (sister of Anne) had a intimate relationship with Constance Chilton. Now I am not saying this is true or even open to consideration but it has been thrown out there in some review/book. Isn't this in the "Aviator's Wife?" I think this is fiction so unless there's a real source for it in the footnotes then I wouldn't let it enter my mind and corrupt the real data that's contained there. Is there another book that says this too? The phrase "Alec only suspects". Is 'suspects' being used as a verb here, and not a noun? That's how I read it. You could be right. I think it's in the eye of the beholder, however, I have never seen a source crediting Lindbergh as "suspecting" Elisabeth or any other family member, so it's why I lean towards a noun. But honestly it might be best to place in the ' who knows?' category.
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Post by garyb215 on Feb 19, 2015 18:08:00 GMT -5
Yes Michael it is. I reluctantly asked about it. It just came to me as a surprise and took my interest of how someone would be bold to write that fiction or non fiction. I just finished Morris' book a second time and the current thread is timely. The going on in the Morrow family is interesting even if there was no illegitimate son. Norris' book had me on the edge of my seat in many parts. Its good reading.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 19, 2015 19:34:38 GMT -5
So to sum up, we have Schwarzkopf transcribing a conversation where it's relayed to him that this is a family scandal, which Elisabeth knows about, and (possibly) where Lindbergh is or should be the only suspect?
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Post by Michael on Feb 19, 2015 19:55:49 GMT -5
So to sum up, we have Schwarzkopf transcribing a conversation where it's relayed to him that this is a family scandal, which Elisabeth knows about, and (possibly) where Lindbergh is or should be the only suspect? This could be your position on it LJ. My position is this: He's written down this information as being told to him, and considers it something worthy to keep in his notes. He did the same thing with Curtis only to use those notes later as a point of reference against him once his hoax revealed itself. The "Alec only...." is 'up in the air' as to it's exact meaning. Whoever is the source is blaming Elisabeth - that much appears clear to me, although if someone disagrees I will consider what they think. The biggest problem is this is the only reference (outside of anonymous letters) I have ever found that names Elisabeth.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 19, 2015 20:34:36 GMT -5
It's that last line that throws me. Lindbergh suspects one person and only that one person? Only look into those suspected by Lindbergh? Lindbergh himself is the only suspect (but then, why would it be plural if that was the case?). I can see it being a family scandal, which Elisabeth could've been aware of (and which might've exacerbated her heart condition and drove her to an early grave--maybe Behn was right as far as that goes)--all that works, but that last line is just strange.
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Post by garyb215 on Feb 19, 2015 22:07:06 GMT -5
My initial take is that someone is expressing to Schwarzkopf that Elisabeth and not a Morrow servant potentially tipped off the kidnapper. Questioning if Gow mentioned something to Elisabeth right after the initial call to come down to Hopewell. That Lindbergh only suspects this could have happened. (if Alec is Lindbergh)
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Post by xjd on Feb 20, 2015 9:33:57 GMT -5
re: Elisabeth's & Dwight Jr.s' mental health was questioned. i wonder if their problem was alcoholism (perhaps as well as mental issues)? i remember a book about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's father being institutionalized and referred to as "mad" but really he was shut away because he was an alcoholic. strange that in previous eras it was preferable to have a "mad" relative rather than an addicted one. just a thought.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Feb 20, 2015 12:05:21 GMT -5
How do you know E.M. is Elisabeth? Could be Elizabeth. Elisabeth is hardly mentioned in any of the crime data except by the guy who jumped on her for his book. Elizabeth must have been contacted shortly after the act because she showed up. Who knows where S was?
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