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Post by hurtelable on Feb 9, 2015 21:45:27 GMT -5
Oliver Whateley died from peritonitis, an infection of the inner lining of the abdominal cavity. Though a relatively rare lethal problem now, deaths due to peritonitis were not uncommon in the pre-antibiotic era. So without knowing anything more about his medical history and treatment, one would be inclined to say that his death was due to natural causes.
As for Violet Sharpe, the worst thing she could have possibly done in relation to Charlie's death was to inadvertently divulge information to others involved in a possible kidnap or murder plot. If she did so, or even if she didn't, it's understandable that the relentless pressure put on her by intensive police grilling - without any attorney to help her out in a foreign country - would possibly cause her to totally freak out and take her life. Not knowing her psychiatric make-up or history, it's difficult to say that her death was anything other than suicide, and, as often is the case, we'll never know precisely what was on her mind that led her to taking her life.
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Post by rebekah on Feb 9, 2015 22:34:11 GMT -5
"If you believe the remains found in the Mount Rose woods are Charlie, then you can see by the open fontanelle (about one inch in diameter)and the enlarged cranium (too large for a child his age) that Charlie's rickets treatments were not keeping the condition from worsening." -- Amy
I DO believe that the body found was Charlie, and for the reasons you've pointed out. At his last examination, I recall that the good Doctor added cod liver oil to his diet, on top of the Viosterol. The sunlamp just seemed to be drying his skin and causing those nodes on his hair. (He also commented on the open fontanelle and the enlarged cranium.) If his condition wasn't responding to these treatments, something else must have been going on. I think the rickets were getting progressively worse and nothing was helping. You may be right about epilepsy being a part of the problem, which, of course wouldn't be evident in the few photos and films that we can see.
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Post by rebekah on Feb 9, 2015 22:50:15 GMT -5
Oliver Whateley died from peritonitis, an infection of the inner lining of the abdominal cavity. Though a relatively rare lethal problem now, deaths due to peritonitis were not uncommon in the pre-antibiotic era. So without knowing anything more about his medical history and treatment, one would be inclined to say that his death was due to natural causes.
As for Violet Sharpe, the worst thing she could have possibly done in relation to Charlie's death was to inadvertently divulge information to others involved in a possible kidnap or murder plot. If she did so, or even if she didn't, it's understandable that the relentless pressure put on her by intensive police grilling - without any attorney to help her out in a foreign country - would possibly cause her to totally freak out and take her life. Not knowing her psychiatric make-up or history, it's difficult to say that her death was anything other than suicide, and, as often is the case, we'll never know precisely what was on her mind that led her to taking her life. Thank you for clearing that up, hurt. I knew it was some kind of stomach problem. As for Violet, I guess she may have felt some guilt about something she said or did, but it didn't seem to really bother her much until the baby was found dead. (Remember that winking she did?) I haven't read the Violet Sharpe thread yet, so that is now next on my agenda. And to all who have been inside the Hopewell house: Can you give me a rough estimate of the size of the nursery? I always wanted to go and tour the house, but never had the opportunity. Years ago, I drove to NYC a couple of times, but those with me had no interest in a detour to Hopewell. I should have gone, anyway. It was MY car.
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Post by Michael on Feb 10, 2015 19:38:53 GMT -5
Can you give me a rough estimate of the size of the nursery? I always wanted to go and tour the house, but never had the opportunity. Years ago, I drove to NYC a couple of times, but those with me had no interest in a detour to Hopewell. I should have gone, anyway. It was MY car. Yikes!
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 10, 2015 21:39:50 GMT -5
Wait, wasn't "the window through which kidnappers were supposed to have come" (SE corner window)--wasn't that the one with the chest below it, with the suitcase on top? I ask because that French window is the one marked in the diagram as having a chest below it...
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Post by romeo12 on Feb 10, 2015 22:37:03 GMT -5
you have to make a appt now to go inside the house, not the outside
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Post by rebekah on Feb 10, 2015 23:00:32 GMT -5
Thank you for posting the diagram, Michael. Unfortunately, by computer, the scale puts the room at 20 X 23 feet!(1/4" = 1') He sure had a lot of room to romp. LOL. Was it really, say, approximately 10'X 12', or is that still a little large? I've heard that the house wasn't as big as many of us who haven't been there think it was. I ask only out of curiosity and my regret for not doing something I REALLY wanted to do when I had the opportunity. Also, what's the story on the fire in 1985? Just the other day, I ran across a photo of the rear of the house after the fire. It looked pretty bad. Has anyone been out there recently? I picture an abandoned, lonely country house with a chain across the driveway and a "KEEP OUT" sign hanging from it. I hope that's not the case. I hope it's still being used for something good.
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Post by rebekah on Feb 10, 2015 23:03:51 GMT -5
you have to make a appt now to go inside the house, not the outside Really, Romeo? You can make an appointment and actually go in? That's great. I'm putting it right back on my Bucket List. Who knows? I may just get there yet!
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 10, 2015 23:16:02 GMT -5
My understanding is that it's still a boys' home, just like the Lindberghs wanted it to be when they donated the property to the state back in, I think, the early 40s. It's called the Albert Elias Foundation now. You can Google it, and find it in Google Maps too (188 Lindbergh Rd., Hopewell). It'll give you a street view of the driveway entrance from a few years ago. Getting up there to poke around a bit is on my bucket list as well (I'm about 3.5 hrs. south, in DC).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 23:42:06 GMT -5
Wait, wasn't "the window through which kidnappers were supposed to have come" (SE corner window)--wasn't that the one with the chest below it, with the suitcase on top? I ask because that French window is the one marked in the diagram as having a chest below it... I noticed that too. You are right that he missed sketching the chest with the suitcase under that southeast window. The French window had a built in chest under it. I believe this is the drawing that Cpl. Joseph Wolf made and is attached to his Inital Report dated March 1, 1932. In the written part of his report he does mention the chest and suitcase under that southeastern window.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 23:49:13 GMT -5
Rebekah,
When Cpl. Wolf wrote his police report for the night of March 1, 1932 he measured the room and noted it as being 14' by 12'. Not an overly large room by today's standards.
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2015 5:50:47 GMT -5
Rebekah, When Cpl. Wolf wrote his police report for the night of March 1, 1932 he measured the room and noted it as being 14' by 12'. Not an overly large room by today's standards. Here's a "floor plan" that I've posted in the past that I think gives a really good idea of what was where and the sizes of the rooms in relationship to one another. When you hear about how many rooms there are it gives the impression the house is bigger then it actually is. As Amy has pointed out, the rooms are smaller then what we'd expect.
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Post by stella7 on Feb 11, 2015 8:11:48 GMT -5
There now is a No Tresspassing sign at the beginning of the driveway, so no I don't think they allow people in anymore. I wonder who you could call to find out?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 9:09:20 GMT -5
Rebekah, When Cpl. Wolf wrote his police report for the night of March 1, 1932 he measured the room and noted it as being 14' by 12'. Not an overly large room by today's standards. Here's a "floor plan" that I've posted in the past that I think gives a really good idea of what was where and the sizes of the rooms in relationship to one another. When you hear about how many rooms there are it gives the impression the house is bigger then it actually is. As Amy has pointed out, the rooms are smaller then what we'd expect. View AttachmentI really like this floor plan. It actually helps you to envision how everyone moved around the house on the evening of March 1. At least for me it does. Thanks for posting it again.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 9:11:06 GMT -5
There now is a No Tresspassing sign at the beginning of the driveway, so no I don't think they allow people in anymore. I wonder who you could call to find out? Stella, if you go to nj.gov they are saying the house is now a home for juvenile girls. I didn't know that it had changed over. Here is a link: www.nj.gov/oag/jjc/residential_comm_doves_hm.html
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Post by romeo12 on Feb 11, 2015 13:00:14 GMT -5
you still have to call and give notice for a visit inside
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Post by romeo12 on Feb 11, 2015 13:01:28 GMT -5
its been so long since ive been in that house I forgot how big the rooms were. I think it was the early 90s
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Post by jack7 on Feb 12, 2015 7:25:26 GMT -5
How does Hauptmann's ladder fit into the "Lindbergh had something to do with it" conspiracy?
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 12, 2015 9:19:53 GMT -5
If Lindbergh was involved, then he probably would've had someone arrange this for him, to apply layers of insulation to him and so on. (As a basis for this, I'm using Cemetery John's apparent remark that a high-level government VIP was involved.) Anyway, that VIP contact would've looked for others to actually carry this out--the "kidnappers". He looked in one of the closest major population centers to Highfields; someplace where it's easy to disappear and remain anonymous and also on a pretty direct, straight-shot line to Hopewell--the Bronx. He found three minor, unconnected guys there, men who weren't above doing illegal things for money. One of those guys was (or knew) Hauptmann, who built (or was asked to build) a ladder. He did, using a scrap pile in his basement.
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Post by jack7 on Feb 12, 2015 9:55:08 GMT -5
That places three or four more people into the conspiracy which already includes all of the adults at Lindbergh's home, at least two from Breckenridge's law firm and Violet (as included above) and possibly Mrs. Morrow and her sister. Of course there's Will Rodgers and his wife as well for they lied and said Charlie looked fine a week or so before TLC. And Anne's sister Elisabeth because, especially if she's responsible, she certainly knows - and disappeared (poof*).
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 12, 2015 10:33:34 GMT -5
I don't see why Anne, the Whateleys, Breckenridge (or anyone in his office) would've necessarily had to know anything. And since I ultimately don't agree with the Behn book, I don't see why Betty or Elisabeth Morrow would've had to know anything either. I think Betty Gow knew something was going to happen, that CAL Jr. was going away: Stopping at a drugstore on her way to Hopewell, volunteering to make him that extra shirt, saying later that she "was promised she wouldn't be touched"--but I don't think she knew CAL Jr. was going to die. I think she was told he was going to be leaving, and the only way for the family to save face was to have this done surreptitiously, to make it look like outside forces stole him. And, as I've said elsewhere, if there was something apparently and obviously wrong with CAL Jr., then Will Rogers would've noticed this when he saw him, sure. But, being another megastar like Lindbergh, I think someone like Will Rogers could be counted on for his discretion, to not tell the world "Hey, there's something really wrong with the Lindbergh Baby..." Anyway, having seen CAL Jr. and his potential problems, I don't think Will Rogers would've connected it up as the reason for his disappearance. As I see it then, we only have Lindbergh, a Mr. X organizer, and three "kidnappers" who Mr. X hired (two people to leave the two footprint trails, plus a driver to drive the car Anne Lindbergh heard). These are the only ones I see who would've absolutely had to know what really happened. That's a mere five people. Betty was duped, and Condon was a party to another conspiracy altogether, involving the three kidnappers. In any case, I think it goes without saying that this handful of people would've had every reason in the world not to EVER say anything about what each of them knew (Betty went so far as to leave the country, never to return [except briefly, for the trial]). And I don't think Violet Sharp did or knew anything at all. I think she incorrectly assumed that she'd said something to the wrong person and had thereby inadvertently facilitated the apparent kidnapping. She got nervous and scared, and started lying left and right--blurting out contradictory things about movies and roadhouses and dates with guys named Ernie (a name she pulled out of her hat, since it was on a business card she'd seen in her sister's room or something). Once she started acting suspiciously, Violet became a person of interest who the police were not going to let go of. At that point, her thinking could well have been: "Even though I don't know what I said or who I said it to, now that the police won't leave me alone it's only a matter of time before they figure out what I said and to whom. Once that inevitably comes out, I'll be pilloried as the fool who helped the kidnappers..." And once CAL Jr. turned up dead, the seriousness of what she thought she'd done magnified exponentially, and she just couldn't live with it.
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Post by jack7 on Feb 12, 2015 11:04:01 GMT -5
Well, especially for those new to this case, it should be noted that in spite of The Lindbergh crime being if not the most, certainly one of the most investigated and manhunted crimes in history, there is only evidence against one person's guilt - Richard Hauptmann. Everyone else who is mentioned as possibly being involved is pure speculation.
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Post by jack7 on Feb 12, 2015 11:04:47 GMT -5
Well, especially for those new to this case, it should be noted that in spite of The Lindbergh crime being if not the most, certainly one of the most investigated and manhunted crimes in history, there is only evidence against one person's guilt - Richard Hauptmann. Everyone else who is mentioned as possibly being involved is pure speculation.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 12, 2015 12:32:56 GMT -5
Absolutely. And I never claimed it was anything else. That being said, I don't think the evidence supports Hauptmann acting alone, and, as I've said elsewhere, a lot falls into place accepting Lindbergh's involvement as a working hypothesis.
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Post by jack7 on Feb 12, 2015 13:13:18 GMT -5
Of course he couldn't have done it alone; of course it was also impossible, after the terrorist and hijacking threats and happenings the nation had suffered through, for some weirdos to hijack four large passenger airplanes at about the same time on the same day with no SOS calls and run into three of the most important buildings in the country and crash the last plane full of innocent people.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 12, 2015 14:13:49 GMT -5
I never said it was impossible for anyone to pull this off alone--simply that a lot of the evidence doesn't support that. 9/11's different: There, the evidence is incontestable that the accused were fully guilty (and, incidentally, that there were others involved besides the direct--and multiple--perpetrators).
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Post by garyb215 on Feb 12, 2015 15:40:02 GMT -5
Jack .... I am wondering if the Ladder is Hauptmann's and one believes Lindbergh is involved its a hard bridge to connect for me.
Violet is a hard person to evaluate. She had health issues and lost lots of weight, and couldn't retain term memory very similar to a drug type addict. Many will assume it is coming from a mountain of worry and guilt but just as likely because of bad health. Suspicions are still warranted. Her hospital stay she is overly concerned if she spoke in her sleep and Edna taking off all draw attention to her.
I believe as much as you can study and research for an insider it may never come to light. There is a reason and there is imo an insider. I think it is well hidden and it is the key to the case. It could be a reputation at stake, blackmail or a shared concern for junior . As unfounded as that may be I believe it is found somewhere in a second story line that we've tried to connect for so many years
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 17:56:41 GMT -5
LJ, let me ask you this: Do you think that Anne intended to keep Charlie with the family even though his condition was not improving and he probably would need additional trained help to care for him? Is this what families did back then with their disabled children -- cared for them at home? How long would they be able to keep Charlie's condition from getting exposed if he is kept with the family?
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 12, 2015 19:01:48 GMT -5
I think, as far as Anne would've been concerned, there were several places they could've kept him in seclusion (Deacon's Point in ME, for one). But that being said, I would be totally willing to entertain the possibility that Anne knew about what I think Betty knew--that CAL Jr. was going away. If she knew anything, I do think this would've been the extent.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 20:14:38 GMT -5
I think there were several places they could've kept him in seclusion (Deacon's Point in ME, for one). But that being said, I would be totally willing to entertain the possibility that Anne knew about what I think Betty knew--that CAL Jr. was going away. If she knew anything, I do think this would've been the extent. I can see that as a possibility. Anne knew what Betty Gow knew. Charlie is going away. Both women would have been under the belief that Charlie was going to be fine. Charlie would be going where he could receive the proper care. So Charlie would have to go missing as part of the plan. Wouldn't they have to know this much if they know Charlie is going away? Even if he was only going to Deacon's Point?
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