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Post by sue75 on Jan 26, 2011 19:34:31 GMT -5
Michael, did Edna Sharpe commit suicide like her sister Violet?
I just read a UK post that says Edna hanged herself some time after she had returned to the Village of Berkshire. The poster says that US writers don't report this aspect because they've never followed the trail back to her home town to discover what eventually happened to her.
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Post by hunley2 on Jan 27, 2011 11:15:12 GMT -5
Wow Sue!! Something worth looking into...great find!!
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Post by Michael on Jan 27, 2011 12:37:32 GMT -5
Sue,
Mark knows Edna's neice and told me Edna died as an old woman a few years ago. Maybe they are mistaking her for someone else.
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Post by sue75 on Jan 27, 2011 17:12:16 GMT -5
To Michael & hunley2: This poster, Paul Hilton, seems like he knows his UK history. He seems to have posted pretty regularly in the past, providing photos for picturesofengland.com I found the post here: www.picturesofengland.com/forum/England_Travel_Experiences/2969Posted at 02:04 on 20th June 2009 Hi Johnny and welcome to Poe and glad you enjoyed your visit, as I did just looking at your Swallowfield pics; not far from where I live. Perhaps you went a bit closer to Reading at Woodley where the Berkshire Aviation Museum is. It was near here that Group Capt. Sir Douglas Bader crashed and had both his legs amputated at the Royal Berkshire Hospital in Reading. Also at Woodley was the former Miles Aircraft Company. That was where Col. Charles Lindbergh and wife Anne went to have a custom plane made for them after the kidnapping of their baby etc. That was the Miles Mohawk which I have a photo of from 1936, and its now in the RAF Museum at Hendon. There's also a local connection around here to do with the Lindbergh kidnapping US writers of Lindbergh never seem to mention. One of the ladies that was working for him at the time and then killed herself came from not far away; and her sister returned here and was found hanged in the village they'd both came from; Reading coroner's verdict was suicide too, but I have my doubts. Her sister was about to be questioned again by Capt Swartzkopf of the New Jersey Police---and father of the Gulf War General---when she killed herself over there. But, writers of the Lindbergh story never seem to follow the trail back to Berkshire. And if you went to Duxford, that's where they made a lot of the film The Battle of Britain and also The Memphis Belle starring the B-17 Sally B as the Memphis Belle. Edited by: Paul Hilton at:20th June 2009 02:11
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Post by sue75 on Jan 27, 2011 17:19:44 GMT -5
Here, again, Paul Hilton claims Violet's sister hanged herself. www.picturesofengland.com/forum/Picture/Chat/4459/2Paul Hilton Posts: 2056 Joined: 21st Nov 2004 Location: UK quotePosted at 01:45 on 2nd September 2010 As we circle around Berkshire, we come to Woodley where RAF Squadron Leader Sir Douglas Bader crashed and had his legs amputated at the Royal Berkshire hospital in Reading. The Miles Aircraft factory used to be here and in the 1930s, had built the Miles Mohawk plane for Charles Lindbergh and his wife Anne, to fly --mostly--around Europe in. The Lindbergh's lived near Sevenoaks in Kent and left the US to escape the press when their son was found murdered. One of the nannies they employed at the time of the kidnapping, was Violet Sharpe who came from Berkshire and killed herself in New Jersey; her sister had returned to Berkshire and was found hanged. For those unfamiliar with Lindbergh, in 1927 he made the first solo non-stop flight across the Atlantic in his Ryan plane, The Spirit of St Louis, for which he'd received the Medal of Honor for his historic flight. Berkshire Museum of Aviation Picture by Edward Lever Edited by: Paul Hilton at:2nd September 2010 03:17
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Post by sue75 on Jan 27, 2011 17:24:31 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on Jan 27, 2011 17:28:03 GMT -5
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Post by hunley2 on Jan 27, 2011 18:41:21 GMT -5
Sue, Wow! One of my dreams is to go to England one day. Thanks for for sharing Paul's beautiful photos with us!! See, try, try again works!!
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Post by Michael on Jan 28, 2011 7:48:39 GMT -5
Sue,
I'd put my money on Mark. When he worked on the piece concerning Red Johnson he interviewed his family - so when he says something about Edna as he has its damn near 100%.
This guy seems to know stuff, but right from jump-street he's calling Violet Sharp a "Nanny" which we all know isn't correct. My guess is someone hung themselves but he's getting whoever it was confused.
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Post by sue75 on Jan 31, 2011 11:03:46 GMT -5
Michael,
I don't think using a word like "nanny" is a big deal -- she still was a servant no matter what the term that was used.
I have reason to believe that she died under mysterious circumstances.
Why would these people from the Village of Berkshire area be saying this? Who might they be confusing her with?
I wonder when she died -- what year? If she died just a few years ago, she must have been in her 90s?
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Post by sue75 on Jan 31, 2011 20:33:24 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on Jan 31, 2011 20:55:59 GMT -5
Did Edna Sharp die in the United States, Berkshire County, Massachusetts?
If Edna was close to Violet's age, and died just a few years ago, wouldn't she have been 100 or something?
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Post by Michael on Feb 3, 2011 17:36:05 GMT -5
Sue,
Your best bet is to contact Mark either by phone or email about this. I certainly don't want to talk you out of something you think might have some possiblity. Mark should be able to give you much more then I can then you should be able to take it from there.
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Post by sue75 on Feb 3, 2011 18:08:34 GMT -5
Thank you, Michael. I guess I'd like to see her tombstone and/or death certificate. Also, I wonder what cemetery she's buried in. That one post mentions a coroner's report. I'll try emailing Mark.
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Post by wahian on Mar 25, 2011 14:21:16 GMT -5
Glad you found my comments on picturesofengland.com of interest and any of you could have emailed me via the site to query my observations. I stand corrected that Violet wasn't a nanny which was a mistake made by a friend whose mother had gone to school with Violet when they were both little girls which is how I came to learn where she came from and to where her sister Edna/Emily had returned to. The Coroner's report I'd found mention of online and elderly people in the village also recalled it. US newspapers at the time also reported Edna being interviewed by Scotland Yard detectives who declared their belief that Edna/Emily had nothing to do with the kidnapping. I've assumed she was buried in Reading, Berkshire but haven't found her grave. I'd be interested too if Mark has any comments to add. Paul H.
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Post by Michael on Mar 25, 2011 17:18:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Paul! You're best bet is to call the NJSP Archives and speak to Mark directly. He has been helping me out for over 10 years now. Here is his contact information:
Mark W. Falzini Archivist NJ State Police Museum 609-882-2000
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Post by wahian on Mar 25, 2011 18:48:58 GMT -5
Thank you Michael and will likely give Mark a call to give him my concerns about what people had told me without appreciating what they might actually had been saying. I've also been trying to find documentation anywhere that might, or might not, corroborate what I was told. It might have been right for authors to mention that Edna/Emily returned to England and leave it at that, but I'd like to be sure myself that is the case as I'm not convinced it is. I think I shall have to go to the Berkshire Records Office to find any answers to the questions I have in mind. Paul
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Post by Michael on Mar 25, 2011 19:23:46 GMT -5
I've got the Scotland Yard Files, and some other various reports regarding Edna. I don't think its mentioned where she's buried though. Check back from time to time. Even if I can't find what you are looking for I'll see if I can't post a report or two that's interesting....
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Post by wahian on Mar 25, 2011 20:47:00 GMT -5
Thank you Michael; at long last I've found the family on the 1911 Census living in what is known locally as Bradfield, Southend in Berkshire, not far from where they would later move to. George and Lucy Sharp ( no 'e' ending) who married in 1899 and their 6 children including Violet and her younger sister Emily, aged 1. Lucy had filled out the census and put down her youngest child as Emily and spelt their surname as Sharp. Makes you wonder when the E was added as Sharpe and how Emily also would later appear as Edna? I'll check George's name when they got married. Apart from their first child born at nearby Frilsham, the other 5 were all born at Bradfield. Lucy had been born a few miles away at Hampstead Norreys.
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Post by wahian on Mar 26, 2011 2:37:48 GMT -5
In the summer of 1898, George Sharp married Lucy Smith; Wantage Registrar so looks like they likely got married at Hampstead Norreys. So, the Sharpe, added 'e', variation appeared some time after 1911 for some reason, and Lucy had spelt the family surname correctly in 1911. And George ( b. 1874), as a young lad, is shown as Sharp living with his parents in Bucklebury; close to Bradfield Southend.
On 13 April, 1932 Emily Sharp ( b. April 1909) arrived at Southampton from New York on the Aquitania going back home to Berkshire. The Sharp family name doesn't appear to have been altered in England and seems to only apply to the two sisters while they are in the US; perhaps Canada earlier too?
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Post by Michael on Mar 26, 2011 8:32:52 GMT -5
One thing Mark always told me was the added "e" wasn't correct. He told me that was a mistake that was sometimes made by Reporters or Police. As I researched I've seen various names connected to this Case spelled many different ways.
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Post by wahian on Mar 26, 2011 18:15:24 GMT -5
Thanks again Michael and apologies for covering ground that may well have already been discussed; probably for some time. I had wanted to check records here to clarify a few things for myself. Even looking for when they both travelled to Canada isn't as simple as might be expected. I found what appears to be them thus---- On board the ship Ausonia departing Southampton for Montreal 13 Aug. 1929 were two domestic servants---Edna Sharp, aged 20 as Emily would be. Her traveling companion was a Violet Payne, age unreadable. Both had worked/lived at the same address around the Paddington area of London (street name also unreadable) prior to their trip which arrived on the 18th Aug. So, is this them? It suggests Violet might have married but there doesn't seem to be so far, any record of her marrying a Mr Payne, nor anyone else in the 1920s. I get the impression Violet had something to hide; the NJ police interpret this as a connection to the abduction/murder, but it might be something that goes as far back as England, if not a multiplicity of things over a period she, with or without her sister, had gotten up to.
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Post by Michael on Mar 27, 2011 7:53:25 GMT -5
Paul, Never appologize for bringing things up or going over "old" material. That's part of the process, and what yields new information or clues that were either missed or ignored in the past. I can't begin to explain how much I continue to learn about areas which I thought there wasn't anymore to know about. It's why our board is so important. And new people add new thoughts and ideas which are invaluable at times. Have you gone through the FBI Summary? It's not always 100% accurate but gives a lot of info to consider. lindberghkidnap.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=source&action=display&thread=646Go to Section #1 where Sharp starts on page 82 (I think).
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
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Post by kevkon on Mar 27, 2011 7:59:53 GMT -5
I get the impression Violet had something to hide; the NJ police interpret this as a connection to the abduction/murder, but it might be something that goes as far back as England, if not a multiplicity of things over a period she, with or without her sister, had gotten up to. Great call and probably true for a number of other "suspects" as well.
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Post by wahian on Mar 27, 2011 8:58:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Michael which i shall soon go through. It appears the person who informed me Emily took her own life was mistaken, and she seems to have returned to America to live there after her trip to England in 1932. In August 1932, she returned to New York on the Mauretania. By 1936---7 June---she's returning again from New York to Southampton on the Brittanic to visit her sister in Stourbridge in the Midlands. She indicates she's not comming to live in England and indeed, on the 9 Sept 1936, she's back on the Aquitania headed back to New York, so i beleive she is on her way home after her vacation in England. Thankfully, she's using her proper name of Emily Sharp, so if someone wanted to find out what happened to her, US records should have the answers where she was, maybe got married or remained a spinster etc. But, I did find my friend's comment his mum went to school with Violet--and likely some of her siblings too--correct; she was the same age as Violet, and lived in the village the Sharp family had moved to for most of her life. The sister's Mom, Lucy died 1957. would be interesting to learn what the sisters were getting up to in London and the story behind the Violet Payne name being used---unless a marriage record appears from somewhere which I doubt will happen, but you never know.
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Post by wahian on Mar 27, 2011 15:22:50 GMT -5
Michael--Just been reading your FBI report copy with the following observations. Violet's birthplace is Bradfield [Southend] not Bradford. The local Registrar of BMD's used to be at the adjacent village of Bradfield who would have recorded the children's births. The office was later closed and removed to Reading, Berkshire to cover these out lying villages. The village they state her mother is at is Beenham, Berkshire where they moved to; about 2 miles to the south of Bradfield. It was the village school at Beenham my friend's mother went to school with Violet and her siblings. Report states---True name Mrs George Payne; married winter of 1929-30 in London. This most puzzling considering on the 10 Aug. 1929 as above, Edna Sharp and Violet Payne left Southampton for Canada, traveling together on tickets 53945 ( Edna) and 53944 ( Violet). If this isn't them, I haven't found UK or Canadian immigration records showing a Violet Sharp leaving England or entering Canada. Their address on the journey showing a W2 London postcode which would cover Paddington, Bayswater, Notting Hill areas and they'd both lived and worked at the same address at 57 Edgeware? Rd. W2. And it's this marriage---whenever it might have been---that just doesn't seem to be comming up, and if local to where she lived, likely recorded by the Marylebone Registrar. US newspaper reports said she was divorced soon after her marriage. A divorce petition wouldn't be entertained until at least a year had passed since the marriage. Perhaps it was annulled/voidable marriage? For example, it wasn't consummated or it might be later found to be illegal such as one of the partys later found to be already married. Whatever, it's odd this marriage isn't comming to light at the moment. And of course, the FBI has added the E to the Sharp surname for some reason. Hope this clarifies a few points in their report. Paul
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mairi
Lieutenant
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Post by mairi on Mar 27, 2011 19:41:20 GMT -5
Hello all, Great in put Wahian! You had hinted that the Sharp girls may have been up to something before they left England. This may be too far fetched on my part,but it crossed my mind to wonder. That is, the possibility that one or both may have falsified names on passport so as not to be traced (?) (maybe the "e" onto Sharp, at same time?) V. Payne and Edna S. I've had my doubts that Violet married a Payne. Does it strike anyone else as odd that the police allowed Edna/Emily to leave the country? I may have the time line scrambled, but my impression is that the kidnap had already occurred before she took off.
Kevon, those were such interesting ladder photos you posted! Yes indeed, they do look familiar.
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Post by Michael on Mar 28, 2011 7:35:15 GMT -5
Scotland Yard interviewed Payne. He said he knew her for years and was, in essence, her friend. He claimed he never married her then pointed out he'd been married for 30+ years to someone else. I think this is in the Scotland Yard files but I'd have to check. I know its mentioned in Lloyd's book, The Case That Never Dies.
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Post by wahian on Mar 28, 2011 10:12:30 GMT -5
yes Mairi, i too thought it was generous of the police to let Edna/Emily return to England instead of confiscating her passport, being such a potential witness they might like to interview again. But, in August she'd returned just as she said she'd planned. I also think George Payne is telling the truth he knows nothing of this marriage, or indeed, Violet was using his surname in whatever manner when it suited her. Like when booking their journey to Canada as Violet Payne and I suspect Emily chose to be called Edna to keep her initial E the same. So, appears this subterfuge had started at least by the summer of 1929 in London. I wonder why they were doing it apart from trying not to be traced as to where they'd gone to and not appear on any passenger list as two sisters travelling together? And how long had they planned on keeping it up? And what did the FBI find that indicated to them to state Violet's real name was Mrs George Payne? A false marriage certificate perhaps----unless a real one comes to light? Was the added E to Sharp a mistake or part of her attempt to alter her name too? I do wonder what inspired them to walk into Cunard's booking office to buy two tickets in the names of Edna Sharp and Violet Payne; 3rd Class, both domestic servants at the same address? And if it transpires Violet had faked her marriage, in what manner did she do it and then the FBI found it and took it as genuine as they duly then reported? Does anyone know what George Payne's wifes name was? First name would do. Paul
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Post by Michael on Mar 29, 2011 17:00:36 GMT -5
Do you think it was like a high school sort of "thing" where Violet pretended to be married to him? Or possibly him cheating and lying to her about wanting to marry her? She did tell Edna they were married. I know I've referred you to Mark himself, but one of the best kept secrets about this Case is his book: Their Fifteen MinutesHere he has a chapter on Violet that probably answers each and every question you are curious about. For example: The investigators learned that George Payne was born in 1869, making him 35 years older then Violet. He married Ellen Cone in 1896 and they had one daughter, Winifred Annie who was born shortly thereafter. She later married a Mr. Little and they were living with her parents on Lisson Street. (p. 125)
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