|
Post by wolf2 on Mar 22, 2010 7:03:49 GMT -5
it dosnt prove to me the body was brought back there. it wasnt that close to the raod. i agree animals could have drag some body parts to the road, but they didnt
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 22, 2010 13:06:07 GMT -5
Steve, when do you believe that the bag and the body separated and how? Also, why would you bother to put the body in the bag in the first place if you are only going to bury it a mile away?
Michael, having grown up in Lambertville, I know you are all to familiar with the Spring runoff and the way in which small stream-lets can turn into raging rivers. Have you ever gone to the Mt Rose spot after one of these heavy Spring rains?
|
|
|
Post by wolf2 on Mar 22, 2010 13:33:09 GMT -5
well its more then a mile, its obvious the kidnapper used that bag. its also to me he was in a hurry with disposing the body
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 22, 2010 15:05:33 GMT -5
I think it would be safe to say that if the body was dumped where it was found, then the kidnapper was looking to get rid of it ASAP. So if you were in a hurry would you take the time and effort to stuff a dead child in a burlap bag knowing you were going to "bury" it in a "shallow grave" right down the road? Why bother ?
|
|
|
Post by wolf2 on Mar 22, 2010 15:17:11 GMT -5
why bother? i think the kidnapper paniced and dumped the body into the first place he could have pulled the car to
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 22, 2010 15:55:00 GMT -5
You think that after climbing that ladder into a house full of people, stealing the Lindbergh's baby, killing him, climbing safely out of the house, and stuffing the kid's body into a bag, he panicked? I don't think Hauptmann knew how to panic.
|
|
|
Post by wolf2 on Mar 22, 2010 16:05:53 GMT -5
after the ladder broke, i think he paniced
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 22, 2010 20:53:50 GMT -5
I can respect your position, but it's hard for me to believe that in a state of panic someone would drive in the opposite direction of home, stop on a well traveled road, get out with a dead body in a bag, go into the woods, scoop out a grave, and bury the body.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 23, 2010 16:59:32 GMT -5
I am. But I think we have to weigh the scenarios accordingly. Lambertville is along a River. Even so, the creeks (e.g. Swan, Alexauken, etc.) could always handle the "run-off" until they decided to build up on Music Mountain, the Commons, and Cottage Hill. Most of the older folks will tell you even the Elementary School created the first issues.
1955 was an anomaly. If that happened now both Lambertville and New Hope would be completely destroyed.
So if we look at Mt. Rose back in 1932.... It's on a hill. Compare it to what it is like now. There is a lot more people, yes, but its still a lot like it was back then. I think there's always a possibility that rain swollen run-off could have moved a corpse over time. Then, perhaps, animals drug it to where it was found.
I don't believe this is what happened - for a couple of reasons, but its a working theory that I wouldn't dismiss out of hand.
Good observation. It's the "ole" he's smart but he's stupid AND he has nerves of steal but is scared s*itless. It's one or the other but never both at the same time.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 23, 2010 23:54:07 GMT -5
If it was runoff it left the corpse into a loweradge (facedown so that the body could be recognized) which to police looked as a shallow grave (indicating manmade), and they said somewhat covered, which of course could happen. Also it swept the burlap bag near to the road, which I believe was an indicator for the kidnapper(s) as to if the body had been found. Quite convientent for a creek to do. Because of discovered toes around the area, etc, it would seem the body was in the same place all of the time, and the bag was a signal for those (kidnapper{s}) driving by of the discovery of the body. Michael's (EXCLUSIVE) Buzzard Patrol is an interesting concept - could be though that Willard was picking off buzzards and telling his wife he was on quail shoots. Not a good way to collect a ransom. Leads to believe of crime lonely comitted by a total idiot, or by another who had alterior motives - ransom being secondary - and allowing other(s) to collect ransom - of course all in conjunction. Noso would have been a very good candidate to be a NSDAP spy. There has always been a question of German Nationalistic interest in the crime including suspicious persons returing to Germany right after the crime (and right after driving around with Red), etc. So somebody has the wherewithal to do the crime (considerable) and leaves child in the woods and hangs around long enough to write notes and collect at least part of the ransom? And disappears . . . And J. Edgar Hoover says Noso was J.J. Faulkner yet doesn't or can't find him? This is perhaps the most staggering fact in TLC. Nosovitsky has links to Lindbergh via his father-in-law, J. Edgar Hoover (very solid - social), and Colonel Donovan. Yet, Noso disappears . . . If J. Edgar Hoover was really looking for you how far do you think you'd get? And, as has been my claim from the beginning, that who really gained from the crime was Nazi Germany, the rest is certainly history. Look at the facts - is Lindbergh so stupid that he sees 10,000 airplanes where there are only 5,000? This is The Lingbergh Line and, as Rick says, there's so much that should be looked into so more . . .
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2010 7:16:35 GMT -5
Michael, have you gone to that spot when conditions were like last week?
Why so?
Jack, could you explain this interest further? Who are you referring to that returned to the Fatherland?
If you are not ratted out, pretty far.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 24, 2010 13:28:51 GMT -5
Nosovitsky was an expert enough forger to nearly single handedly cause the collapse of Mexican government. He had enough punch with US Government, including J. Edgar to only spend a few months in jail for bigamy (usually seven years prison), fluent in Russian and German and involved with British and US intelligence agencies, Burns, Etc. Much more. Best place to find out about him is Behn although B discounts him because N wasn't around NJ on March 1. Behn doesn't explain that and it could be just a phony alibi. Main thing is Noso disappeared when important people were looking for him - or if they weren't it would be even more surprising. Why deport Red, disinclude Noso and allow Violet's sister to trip to England before the crime is solved? Sounds of politics.
Returned to Germany - the Junges. Seems Fisch went back when other Jews were leaving? Might be other Hauptmann/Nosovistky/Fisch acquaintences who went back - largely unexplored area.
It's easy to say that you couldn't be found, but if they really wanted you, once they took the hammer to your brother or your mother and your girlfriend and your wife, or as Saddam would do, hang them by their thumbs or put them tied up in a 55 gallon barrel with a cat and start banging on the barrel, you'd show up.
I know what you mean though - the FBI is still looking for a few ungood men and women. But our society will only allow them to look with so (rather notso) much enthusiasm.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 24, 2010 13:51:38 GMT -5
Addendum: Nosovitsky also had definate and very bad links to Hearst (see Behn) and Baker/Bacon (ask Rick) and J.J. Faulkner. Noso's little joke was to put Baker's address on the gold note deposit slip - HaHa - I got your wife and now you're differently screwed! So if you want a one-guy Lindy Crime person who knows/has cheated/has even blatently insulted (Hearst) many principles of that crime, it's Nosovitsky. Also one of Noso's alias' was J.J. FAULKNER (Behn). Behn found that in NYPD files.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2010 15:33:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Jack. Why would the fascist government of Germany touch Nosovitsky with a ten foot pole? And I don't get why his propensity and skill for forging official documents would be relative to the LKC.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 24, 2010 16:30:44 GMT -5
I've been there once after it rained but it wasn't like last week. Do you think the water levels went up and over the "V" area? Or just that the corpse may have been moved by water previous to his final resting spot?
During my career I've dealt with many people who were employed by the FBI (Special Agents and others). All, and I do mean all, were nothing but professional. Completely - Absolutely Top Notch.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2010 16:56:26 GMT -5
I'd say the water could definitely have reached that spot. It would also account for the "shallow depression". I have no idea to what extent ( how far) the water could have moved it.
Jack, I don't think it was too unusual for an immigrant like Hauptmann to be living comfortably at that time. Hell, we have Central Americans all over my area doing exactly the same ( so much for Homeland Security). I still don't see Nosovitsky as anything other than a washed up intelligence and probably the least likely candidate to be employed by the German government. On the other hand, Yorkville was a German enclave. There's no doubt that it contained German American Bundists. Is it possible that was a connection to Hauptmann? Is it possible that the genesis of the LKC started with them?
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 24, 2010 17:01:58 GMT -5
Cool - the American and British intelligence had worked with him and he was anti-commie. His parents were killed in the Communist uprisings while he was in Russian prisons. Interestingly though, he seemed to be more self-serving which perhaps is fine for a good spy. Remember in Marathon Man when Klaus doesn't shoot Dustin? That is probably good spy.
So incredibly in his long and semi-illustrious career in USA, Novo is untouched. But not unnoticed. J.E. Hoover, Donovan, Hearst, and Morrow Sr. are very well aware of him. So lets just put it down to odds, and you figure them. We have a suspect (Novo) in a crime, and he just happens to have associations with most of the principals of that crime - what are the odds that he was perhaps involved in some way - yet no one can even find him?
Not only that, but his associations were all in a bad light - why would J.E. Hoover disavow someone yet not make sure they weren't on the street to do it again? Or Donovan? I always wondered why Donovan was involved in TLC. Did he hear it was Noso and jumped in? Looks very likely - tell me any other reason. Hearst had to be connected - why let Noso burn him big and run?
So reality of that time was that Noso DID exist - was possibly after Dwight Sr. & Morgan for unpaid $ 50K (Behn and other researchers) - did know Fisch (Pat Doyle, Rick) - did know Baker and in fact ran away with his wife (Rick) - did know, socially even, Hoover (Many Sources) - was an excellent forger (Mexican evidence), etc. Not only that, how ironic that a relative of Jafsie, Dinny Doyle, a man Pat (A. Condon) remembers happened to be at several conferences with police and Wally Stroh (Novo cellmate) while discussing Nosovitsky.
How many coincidences does it take to make the bell ring?
They don't give a S - pay me and you get the job done.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 24, 2010 17:10:54 GMT -5
Yes, Michael, that's exactly what I mean. The Division is not going to rubber hose some guy's family to find him/her. Considering that it's amazing they find anybody.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2010 21:33:34 GMT -5
As Michael asked Rick, what are the sources for this?
PS, My two cents on the feds, it is exactly that extreme professionalism that can sometimes hinder their ability to catch certain criminals.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 20:44:32 GMT -5
" The author was shown a copy of his criminal record, which included his aliases. Jacob Nosovitsky was J.J. Faulkner." Behn p 395 paperback Either Noel Behn or The NYPD is a liar.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 21:06:26 GMT -5
Novo vs. Hearst: Now this would take me a while to dig up. Do you really mean to tell me that you don't know this? Button Rick! Same with Noso's associations- who are the investigators here? Do you investigators just hear some thing and ask whom you heard it from to track it down? Sounds like twentieth century investigation, Ever read the book "Master Detective?"
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 21:17:58 GMT -5
Sources: Re: Nosovitsky/Fisch Pat Doyle (aka A. Condon) - confirm at Ronell's Lindbergh Hoax Site (and history).
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 25, 2010 21:49:17 GMT -5
You just surprised me when you stated Nosovitsky "just happens to have associations with most of the principals of that crime". Where did that come from?
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 21:58:01 GMT -5
Covered -
Are you guys for real? Investigators?
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 22:21:32 GMT -5
Nosovitsky links:
Donovan, Hoover, Charles (via Sr.), and Fisch. Also the unknown Baker/Bacon (probably Noso). And very probale (unknown and lost) Junges (returned to Germany)? Did I say "Most?" - Should have said many.
Surprised you - it surprised ma too!
This is just off the top of my head.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 22:51:33 GMT -5
So my position is that if this site is supposed to be investigative, what are you investigating? I bring up stuff about agent lackey and it is unknown to you for six years and why? Rick and I approach your oible motivatious material and scenarious and it is at best dusted off. I'm not buying the "oh, we're too busy" garp. Lets hear some real answers! Rick especially has presented some real and very technical questions on this site which have been ignored at your best! So if you are really criminoligists - start criminoligizing.
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 25, 2010 23:15:56 GMT -5
All right, Kevkon, since you demandended it: Since Rick and Jack are current investigators they get CLASS I Status. Kevkon and Michael Have not contributed in years so Michael is Class II, but Michael is Class I because he runs the joint.
Rita is Class I because she started all this. Bob Mills is Class II because Kevin thinks he's stupid. Steve Romeo is ? (good book bipage reader) Joe - where is Joe? Is really Joe Whatshisname and busy. NO GIRLS - does that tell you guys something? Sorry Rita! Rita is the best of all girls - hi honey!
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 26, 2010 6:08:21 GMT -5
Neither were. Although he had many, one known alias for Noso was "J. J. Faulkner." That's a fact which I have already proven. Now what do we do with this information? What does it mean?
|
|
jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
|
Post by jack7 on Mar 26, 2010 8:07:08 GMT -5
It means there just a couple questions to be answered (ind can be by investigators):
Is the only reason Nosovitsky even mentioned about TLC in the first place because of Wally Stroh? Why did/would J.E. Hoover say he thought Nosovitsky wrote the ransom notes? A comment out of the blue? Why would Wally Stroh implicate "Doc" Noso in the first place, aside from Noso's comments? He would have known little about Doc, and yet when Doc is looked at there are so many ties.
How could Noso simply disappear when people were or should have been looking for him? Evidently he hung in USA long enough to bilk Mrs. McLean - or did he? perhaps provided correct information - but did he then go to Germany, as did Charles?
Was Noso the man who Means gave the $ 100K to?
Another link not mentioned on "Stooped Man" site - Noso/Bacon(Baker).
Generally a good criminalistic addage is, find the liar - solve the crime. That worked ?? in TLC, but there was more to it. The police found the liar, but were looking at only a restricted motive, partially created by themselves. Noso even wrote letters to the Governor telling them to disregard Hauptmann - and Hauptmann must have been totally unaware of JJ Noso. So, regarding Lindbergh - find the REAL motive and solve the crime.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 26, 2010 13:07:34 GMT -5
Jack, I can't speak for others, but I don't mind the insults. What I do mind, however, is someone who presumes to know what I think about others or anything, for that matter. I especially don't appreciate anyone putting words in my mouth.
|
|