jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 28, 2008 21:15:19 GMT -5
Joe: logically no one would do that crime. Absolutely no one. Lindbergh was a hero as no other hero has ever been. The only possibility out there is that there are criminals who will cut your throat for five dollars, and it would simply be a job or a problem. If BRH was involved (and of course in some way he was) it seems he almost had to have had someone telling him what to do, or he would have shown gross criminal insanity long before while in the U.S. That pin is a nice touch - Bunny says, "OMG, wasn't that Crater president a few years ago?"
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 29, 2008 7:55:42 GMT -5
Lindbergh and his advisers originally ascribed to the theory due in part to the percentages that organzied crime was responsible for the vast majority of recent kidappings. If it was I think we would have seen an ambush along the backroads by masked men with machine guns and a hidden vehicle. A precisely executed moment of sheer terror for America's most beloved family which ultimately would only have served to raise the level of indignation in the American public to a fever pitch. Politicians and lawmakers everywhere would have been making the most of it driving the message downwards into a nationwide crusade. In the end, millions of underworld dollars would have been lost, crime families dissolved and every known gang member would be looking over his shoulder from half a dozen different angles. Very bad business.
But how do you tell a lie that has teeth to it in a case like this, without first incriminating yourself? Hauptmann being a party to extortion alone doesn't work because the nursery ransom note is connected to the subsequent extortion notes by its handwriting and the fact that Notes One and Two were torn from the same original sheet of writing paper. I think it's clear Hauptmann, long before his trial had committed to an ultimate challenge of wills between himself and his captors. He never alowed the realization he was doomed to settle in permanently, due to his own natural sense of omnipotence, (exalts to Dudley) protection of Anna who knew what he had done and having been fed a steady diet of false hope by Lloyd Fisher and Gov. Hoffman.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 29, 2008 8:34:09 GMT -5
You have hit upon one of the most difficult aspects of this crime, Jack. The use of logic to analyze this crime has led many brilliant people astray and still does. The problem is what logic is at work here? Is it the logic of a rational mind? Or is it the logic of someone whose reality is beyond the comprehension of more rational thinkers? I think when you look at the actions of many criminals you can see a logic at work, but at the same time their larger actions and objectives may simply confound all attempts at rational analysis. I, for example, can see and understand the logic of the ladder construction. In that regard I can understand Hauptmann. However, in every other regard the man is beyond my comprehension. There is a logic at work, it's just one beyond my understanding.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 29, 2008 23:36:10 GMT -5
Logic works, but people, and most especially criminal minds are illogical. In the general population people are about 30% illogical. They buy things they don't need, and do things unnecessarily about 30% of the time. The more unsound your behavior is, the greater that number increases. If the prison population is considered about 80% feel that they have done nothing wrong, even though they've clearly stolen or embezzled or even murdered, thay can justify their actions to their own mind. "I had to hit that store because I was broke and that dick got in my way so I shot him." You get the point. To the crook there is nothing wrong with what he did, and others with the same mentality support him doing his twenty years so when he gets out he's just another time bomb. Deportation and isolationism is really the only answer to our crime and economic problems and since the Libertarians have selected Bob Barr (who looks like something out of a Batman video) he'll never get in, so as you said before - it's over. To my mind we should just default on all debts by changing to Euro and legally stamp ALL dollars and dollar debt as legally invalid, and if China says, well you owe us 12 trillion dollars - say, oh well. Then charge massive tax on Jap cars and Chink sweaters (this could be done reciprocatively depending on how much other countries buy our goods - China buys nill) and close our borders with rifles and the U.S. would be self-sufficient and we'd all be millionaires. But, of course, the politicians would screw it up somehow. I had a piece of mail lost not too long ago. It was a check and a lucky Irish penny. I tried to report it "lost mail," not too difficult, you'd think. Well, I poked at the internet trying to find lost mail, stolen mail, etc. and got nowhere. So I went to the Post Office and was directed to an interior office that smelled pretty bad and a woman gave me some instructions for reporting on a little slip of paper. I thought cool, now I can get it done. So I got back on the puter and followed the instructions and they didn't work so finally gave up. I had like four hours and twenty miles trying just to report a lost envelope. Ever read Jonah Goldberg? Editorialist - Washington Post maybe. He looked into the USPS and found it would be cheaper (and far more efficient) for the U.S. government to mail packages by FedEx than by their own system. Of course my verbage (ever think that verb is a noun) doesn't solve anything and people like me have been strongly bitching in print since 68 A.D. and somewhat before, and humor is the one thing we all have in common - so lets keep that rockin'.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 30, 2008 6:31:05 GMT -5
I agree Jack with one caveat. What you call lack of logic, I believe is logic. It's just a logic beyond our understanding. It's akin to a totally foreign language. Look at Leopold and Loeb, for example. Brilliant kids and there was certainly a logic employed by them. But can anyone else really understand it? It's like the Zodiac's cypher.
Hey Jack, I had the exact same experience with the USPS. Even the little room I never noticed before with a man I have never seen at the PO before! And of course, I never heard anything about the lost item!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 2, 2008 1:21:34 GMT -5
This is very difficult to say, Kevin, but I will say it, and you are absolutely positively correct! There is different logic. For you and I stealing is just wrong, but for the guy sitting next to you on the bus or behind you in line at the restaurant, it's OK because it's his/her way of things and thinking. So watch out for people close to you because they could be Commie Nazi pickpockets . That has nothing to do with what I was going to mention though. UFO's are a certain phenomenon which has a lot similar ink. The UFO situation (which does exist - you'd have to be a hermit not to have seen or read of it) seems to work on a different logic base. We are basically cause-effect, but in all UFO history there is no cause-effect. So lets say they are working with cause-cause (similar to Hitler's blitzkreig) it wouldn't matter what the effect would be. This concept is a little technical and involves a superior nature, but it quickly defies logic and has appeared in humanity. So to apply that to criminals, if their logic is cause-cause they don't care about effect, just want to get the job done.
Statistitions would say, then that "most criminals are aliens," and that may be true - all the more reason to put them in prison in Korea at $ 10 a day.
This is getting to sound more like a Sociology class - sorry Rick.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 4, 2008 12:52:56 GMT -5
"There are symbols, and then there are symbols. Some, such as traffic signs or the male and female signs on restrooms, have a strictly limited meaning. A stop light is a stop light is a stop light — no more, no less. Other symbols cannot be so easily encompassed. As archetypes, they stem from the deepest collective levels of the human psyche. As the great psychologist C. G. Jung pointed out, they have meanings that are not exhausted by any one reading. They serve as doorways or keyholes to whole other realms of significance. No amount of meditation or analysis can plumb their full depth as one interpretation links to another and on and on. In a way, each is a “meme” in its own right. Some of these are simple geometric forms — triangles, squares, circles and spirals, for instance, or the many permutations of the cross. In particular, the T-shaped cross, called by the ancients after the Greek letter Tau, (also known as St. Anthony’s or the Egyptian cross) is one that appears in a constellation of variations throughout human history. All these roughly similar shapes have wildly different superficial meanings, yet on a deeper level have a commonality that point to a kind of significance that I believe is truly transcendental. It takes on several forms in Biblical traditions. There is the Cross of Jesus' passion, of course, as well as the pole of the brazen serpent, and the mark on the foreheads of those who were to be spared from death during the fall of Jerusalem in Ezekiel 9:4. " Brazen serpent, The Brazen Serpent in the Desert (Num. 21:7-9) ... the Sacred Tau was revealed on each occasion with fire, thunder, and earthquake, death, ...(which may connect to Madaam Blavatsky and Occult Theosophy?) www.weirdload.com/tau.html "This explains why Blavatsky can say that, physically, the snake symbolizes the seduction of strength by matter (as Jason by Medea, Hercules by Omphale, Adam by Eve), thereby providing us with a palpable illustration of the workings of the process of involution; and of how the inferior can lurk within the superior, or the previous within the subsequent (9). This is borne out by Diet, for whom the snake is symbolic not of personal sin but of the principle of evil inherent in all worldly things. The same idea is incorporated into the Nordic myth about the serpent of Midgard (15). There is a clear connection between the snake and the feminine principle" SERPENT A Dictionary of Symbols by J. E. Cirlot / 1971. 385 p.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 8, 2008 0:55:12 GMT -5
For Rick: Do you know what happened to all of the people of the "Golden Triangle," and Jung (whom you quote) himself? I don't have time now, but will point those out in the next post. I bet Kevin can explain to you Madam Blavatsky's friend "The Most Evil Man Alive's" life off the top of his head.
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Post by AnoNI on Aug 9, 2008 11:24:04 GMT -5
"The ancient science of alchemy purports to relate the process by which an individual may acquire the ultimate "Elixir of Life" - a magical potion believed to confer on the user both access to superconsciousness and, eventually, physical immortality. This Elixir, it is related, flows from the Philosopher's Stone, once the former has been confected by means of an elaborate and highly mystical process. An increasingly open secret amongst those who still interest themselves in this ancient art is that the processes described are largely metaphorical. All of initial elements that need to be gathered together - the various implements and reagents - are in fact esoteric disciplines that the initiate must undertake in order that he prepare his body to produce the fabled Elixir"
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Post by rick3 on Oct 9, 2009 8:25:37 GMT -5
But shouldn't we consider that with the thought in mind exactly who the "insider" might be? Of course a criminal mind may think along these lines but would a Nurse Maid, for example, think this way? How about a Butler? What are the odds they over-react or make this type of mistake? Or panic in some way perhaps? Every crime has its "flaws" which ultimately lead to its solution. Consider that Ho-age did many Insurance fraud claims and finding they were inside jobs. He was convinced this was among those where someone on the inside assisted in the crime. Maybe we should just start by listing the obvious flaws in this hoax: - the ladder couldnt hold the weight of the climber? breaks/
- they forgot to mud up the ladder rungs and window ledge?
- over-scrubed the Nursery of prints? pristine? Covers are all prissed up like Comfort Sweets?
- overlooked ransom note left on the window ledge--then held for 2 hours? (was it forgotten?)
- dog forgets to bark? Forget the kitchen and wind?
- trunk, sunlamp, mugs, not moved--no obvious evidence of a breakin?
- 5 persons are up, awake, walking around? But they ALL dont need to know? They ALL dont watch CJr?
- Maybe Anne and Betty got rid of CJr before CAL came home? CAL had a lousy track record for checking up on Cjr in Nursery/
- Cal forgot the NYU dinner invite?
- If the kidnap is staged and the extortion in Bronx is staged...
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Feb 28, 2010 14:22:39 GMT -5
Shouldn't Ricks points be brought up again?
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Post by shylock on Feb 15, 2015 12:30:40 GMT -5
For KEV-CON: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to indicate that a person's overly frequent or vehement attempts to convince others of something have ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true, by making the person look insincere and defensive.
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Post by mufti on Jan 26, 2018 15:25:43 GMT -5
Masonic eye is the most obvious. Theosophy is definitely a red herring, maybe an intentional one like the hilarious attempt to make the note look like it was written by a foreigner. At the end of the day it probably means nothing at all but it is clearly a good way to authenticate further notes (though there seems some question as to whether this is done correctly?). What Lindbergh saw in 1930's Germany was an industry and festivity amongst its people that was sorely lacking in the Depression of America, which in itself was in a deep hangover from its wretched excesses of the 1920's. It had nothing to do with Nazism. At a time when gangsterism, lawlessness and an out-of-control press were given the same degree of respect as normal law abiding behaviour. And all of this had little to do with the swastika inside the spinner cap of the Spirit of St. Louis. Germany recovered because it rejected the international banking system where everything was controlled by a few bankers who can manipulate the market at will. USA remained in the depression and only snapped out when those same bankers decided it needed to get US into the war against Germany.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 26, 2018 16:02:50 GMT -5
You might add that Germany was by WB standards technically quite illegal and the USA couldn't get away with that.
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Post by mufti on Jan 26, 2018 16:12:29 GMT -5
For Gary--excellent point! On Court TV last week a woman shot husband in bed, dragged him into a pickup, and dumped him down the road a piece. But when CSI checked the bedroom with Lumenol it lit up like a Xmas tree! CONCLUSION: Only "insiders" clean and scrub a crime scene to alter the forensic evidence--not any outsiders. The Nursery was Spic and Span with everything in its proper place. Its a "dead giveaway". [You could also add that only "insiders" would dump a body down the road a piece to be found later? Its all part of modifying the crime scene to avoid arrest and prosecution] I assume a kidnapper would just wear some gloves. Someone who lived there would be worried also about 'incidental' fingerprints. Who knows how many times they have opened the window, for example? A kidnapper is not likely to move the toy box back either, even if he is dextrous enough to get out of the window with the baby in the first place. So it seems highly unlikely someone actually climbed in through that window.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 26, 2018 16:30:39 GMT -5
That's really all true, but junk happens. Murders occur with no fingerprints left behind all the time. Unusual crime scenes that don't look like a crime has occurred are quite common so this Lindbergh crime is not at all unusual.. Only on a site like this would it be questioned for eighty years.
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Post by mufti on Jan 26, 2018 17:18:14 GMT -5
Logic works, but people, and most especially criminal minds are illogical. In the general population people are about 30% illogical. They buy things they don't need, and do things unnecessarily about 30% of the time. The more unsound your behavior is, the greater that number increases. If the prison population is considered about 80% feel that they have done nothing wrong, even though they've clearly stolen or embezzled or even murdered, thay can justify their actions to their own mind. "I had to hit that store because I was broke and that dick got in my way so I shot him." You get the point. To the crook there is nothing wrong with what he did, and others with the same mentality support him doing his twenty years so when he gets out he's just another time bomb. Deportation and isolationism is really the only answer to our crime and economic problems and since the Libertarians have selected Bob Barr (who looks like something out of a Batman video) he'll never get in, so as you said before - it's over. To my mind we should just default on all debts by changing to Euro and legally stamp ALL dollars and dollar debt as legally invalid, and if China says, well you owe us 12 trillion dollars - say, oh well. Then charge massive tax on Jap cars and Chink sweaters (this could be done reciprocatively depending on how much other countries buy our goods - China buys nill) and close our borders with rifles and the U.S. would be self-sufficient and we'd all be millionaires. But, of course, the politicians would screw it up somehow. I had a piece of mail lost not too long ago. It was a check and a lucky Irish penny. I tried to report it "lost mail," not too difficult, you'd think. Well, I poked at the internet trying to find lost mail, stolen mail, etc. and got nowhere. So I went to the Post Office and was directed to an interior office that smelled pretty bad and a woman gave me some instructions for reporting on a little slip of paper. I thought cool, now I can get it done. So I got back on the puter and followed the instructions and they didn't work so finally gave up. I had like four hours and twenty miles trying just to report a lost envelope. Ever read Jonah Goldberg? Editorialist - Washington Post maybe. He looked into the USPS and found it would be cheaper (and far more efficient) for the U.S. government to mail packages by FedEx than by their own system. Of course my verbage (ever think that verb is a noun) doesn't solve anything and people like me have been strongly bitching in print since 68 A.D. and somewhat before, and humor is the one thing we all have in common - so lets keep that rockin'. Jun 28, 2008 18:15:19 GMT -8 jack7 said: Joe: logically no one would do that crime. Absolutely no one. Lindbergh was a hero as no other hero has ever been. The only possibility out there is that there are criminals who will cut your throat for five dollars, and it would simply be a job or a problem. If BRH was involved (and of course in some way he was) it seems he almost had to have had someone telling him what to do, or he would have shown gross criminal insanity long before while in the U.S. That pin is a nice touch - Bunny says, "OMG, wasn't that Crater president a few years ago?" Like communism libertarianism could only possibly work if you completely eliminate immigration (or else everything in the country will just be sold off internationally and everyone who actually lives here would be dispossessed) but I am not holding my breath on that. And yeah, attacking Lindbergh is a lot like a crime on the President. You don't do that unless you are basically crazy or have an overriding political motivation, or it's a hoax. Hauptmann does not seem crazy or like a political martyr to me so I think there is something bigger at work and he is just the hired help who's meant to take the fall.
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Post by mufti on Jan 26, 2018 17:23:40 GMT -5
You might add that Germany was by WB standards technically quite illegal and the USA couldn't get away with that. What do you mean illegal? You mean banking or something else? I think that every country used to have a national banking system like germany under hitler, it was only recently that USA moved to a weird international, global banking system we still have today.
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