jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 7, 2008 21:58:11 GMT -5
For Kevkon: No, nothing particularly frustrates me - oh wait, one thing did frustrate me recently. Did you see the AP Washington story from an unnamed souce (I'm sure that's a typo - SB: source) that "Barack Obama, now cast as the Democrat's standard bearer moved quickly to put his imprint on the national party Thursday, eager to reinforce it's fundraising operation and pursue it's general election campaign. Howard Dean, long-time chairman of the Democratic National Committee will be replaced by Aunt Jemima - and when asked about the appointment Senator Obama said, "will be some great breakfasts at Committee meetings - slide man!" Sometimes I just can't understand what things are coming to. Jack
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 8, 2008 6:52:18 GMT -5
Coming to?? Hey man we're long past the "coming to stage", just take a look around. We're in the (bleep) up to our necks and I doubt anyone can undo it. Aunt Jemima Watch out for the PC cops Jack!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 8, 2008 9:40:39 GMT -5
You're right Kev, I forgot about the Aunt Jemima satellite watch. Well, there's a lot more Irish jokes (and mostly much cruder) than Aunt Jemima jokes, and I laugh right along. Regarding the PC Patrol I used to go in this chat room once in a while, and I usually make some funny (?) references to ridicualness, and I was making a few CIA comments and I started getting strange messages. Not threats, but encoded stuff - ununderstandable. I decided to lay off the CIA and they seem happy about that.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 8, 2008 9:49:36 GMT -5
Oops - ridicualesness. The patrol is fiddling with my typing.
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Post by rick3 on Jun 17, 2008 15:23:44 GMT -5
Here is another classic post from MM: It would appear that AML shares the Nazi love of CAL and Carrell: II. As stated above by Dena (More than you ever wanted to know about theosophy/ April 4th, #17) , there is a certain odd connection between Theosophy, Freemasonry, Nazism and the AFC--Note even the stiff-armed salute: rexcurry.net/theosophy-madame-blavatsky-theosophical-society.htmlIII. I don't see the Symbol- Squiggles as NSDAP sigrunes.
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Post by Michael on Jun 17, 2008 22:21:49 GMT -5
She strikes me, at this stage of her life, as echoing her husband's sentiments in order to please him.
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Post by rick3 on Jun 18, 2008 1:05:17 GMT -5
Maybe from a position of weakness AML has always had to go-along to get-along with America's Hero?
As regards the not-So-Secret Symbol, even in its bastardized form without the S-S Squiggles, it should have been recognized by a variety of occult theosophists. Therefore we can only conclude that all were Sworn to Secrecy as to its origins?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 18, 2008 13:28:54 GMT -5
Hi Rick,
Do you or Dena have The Temple of Divine Power hooked up with Theosophy? Googling did bring up a ref or two about India-as was in the article you posted.
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Post by rick3 on Jun 19, 2008 10:24:47 GMT -5
Hi Rick, Do you or Dena have The Temple of Divine Power hooked up with Theosophy? Googling did bring up a ref or two about India-as was in the article you posted. Hi Mairi-- we already had a substantial number of circumstantial connections between Violet Sharpe, Septimus Banks, Oliver Whateley, Dr. Condon and isadore Fisch to the Temple of Divine Power prior to the question asked about "20 years teaching Theosophy" by Reilly to CAl and JFC during the Trial. (See Gardner, Wright and Dunninger, Frederick Collins) The connection between what little we know about TTDP and Theosophy has been substantiated by the symbol and its likely occult origins. This could lead to a further confirmation of the Extortion in the Bronx theory? If it walks like a duck....etc?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 19, 2008 19:52:27 GMT -5
Isn't it more like "speculative connections," Rick that have been walking like a duck for years here? Where's the actual proof?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 20, 2008 6:37:28 GMT -5
All right, why a duck? Why a duck, why-a no chicken?
[Chico Marx, The Cocoanuts 1925]
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Post by Michael on Jun 20, 2008 13:10:59 GMT -5
Does anyone see any possibility in Gustave Manke's and his wife Sophie's account of when they said they saw Whateley, Sharpe, and Fisch together on 3 or 4 occasions at their ice cream store in New Rochelle?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 20, 2008 20:17:54 GMT -5
Hi Michael- I think we are definitely on the same wave length! Am sure I have nothing significant to add, but i was just reading about that threesome last night and have been thinking about it all day. The thing that sticks in my mind is the description of Violet as being irritable and hard to please. I think we can all see that she was a feisty thing and it just somehow rang true to me.
And Fisch does look like Eddie Cantor
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 0:29:30 GMT -5
The investigators Howells and Skinner use street logic to come up with conclusions (CONCLUSIONS) about various claims in true crime cases. I don't know that they've looked at Lindbergh - probably not, or at least havn't written about the crime. Their take on three principals of a major crime meeting in an ice cream restaurant and - as implied somehow discussing or planning the crime , and probably being seen by many witnesses would be an immediate X. Kevkon's approach is soo good because it is a filtering. Some people are mad or simlly trying to get attention or just bogus people with no motive, or trying to protect people they like or are of their kind. Just personally I believe that if you could accurately timeline the three you'd probably find they could never have hung together. For Rick: I thought they were going over a viaduct and Chico said "viaduct" (as kind of a Marx Brothers warning) and Groucho said "vy not a duck." I havn't seen those movies in soo long - miss them and Fields and Larry Moe and Curly!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 6:48:33 GMT -5
Oops - viaduct should have been for Kevkon. My favorite is in the "Bank Dick" when W.C. Fields starts strangling the little kid with the capgun and his Mother breaks it up and Fields says, "might have been a midget," and the Mom looks at Fields and says to her son, "don't you wish you had a nose like that full of nickles."
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 21, 2008 7:19:07 GMT -5
Classic Jack. How bout the blind man with the cane in the store! Why a duct/ viaduct comes about when Groucho tries to explain a site plan to Chico. Kinda reminds me of this case.
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Post by Michael on Jun 21, 2008 8:56:02 GMT -5
He does, and a source close to me who spoke to a someone who knew Fisch said when this came out they all agreed that he did. But, I wonder if this couldn't have come after seeing his picture? However, I do believe its less likely for someone to make something up which could help Hauptmann and hurt the Morrow/Lindbergh help.
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Post by rick3 on Jun 21, 2008 11:54:50 GMT -5
Michael--Gustave and sophie mancke seem to comfirm reports about Violet and Ollie hanging over at the Temple of Divine Power--at least according to Theone Wright (p90-92) A Prof. Victor/Hector confirms the same notion. But a couple things bother me: - How do Whately and Sharpe travel to NYC/Harlem 2 nites a week without anyone else noticing? Like Elsie for starters? Does CaL send them?
- Violet swears to Walsh that she never goes out with anyone but her sister? Everyone supposes that the butler from the Morrow household is Septimus Banks? But it always turns out to be Ollie Whateley? Is someone lying about this to CYA?
- Does Whately ask CAL/AML to borrow the car to drive to NYC or New Rochelle? And pick up Violet at Next Day Hill on the fly?
- Is New Rochelle anywheres near where Ernie Brinkert lives? Or where Condon teaches at Fordam?
- Vincent Burns in his book may have mentioned Condon being an attender at Mancke's resturant teas as well?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 21, 2008 20:10:05 GMT -5
WHAT? Source???
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 21:19:27 GMT -5
Usually I've found with discrepencies that "Joe knows" and if you wait a while he shows up and straightens things out. For my mind, Rick, I can't see Violet with either man, especially Septimus, because she was pretty much of a swinger, but who knows. If the crime had been so intricate to involve many many people it probably would have been figured out by now. Even involving Al Capone or the Purple Gang is a monster risk for whoever did it because just too many people would know of the "crime of the century," and there would be too many more reasons to squalk.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 22:00:53 GMT -5
For Kevkon: Ollie Whateley? Gawd - where is Blind Bill to analyze this stuff? Jack
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 22:35:25 GMT -5
Well, you're certainly right, Kev (earlier post), things really are all messed up. One thing that very makes me mad is that I see in the paper every morning about a few men killed in Iraq or Afghanistan and I never hear of any women killed. Equal rights? If that's your motto get in the Hummer. If as many women were killed in Iraq as men the war would be over in a few days! Junk Junk, Jack
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Post by gary on Jun 21, 2008 23:57:33 GMT -5
Michael
I have often wondered about Manke's claim of a Fisch/Whately/Sharp meeting. Many and most here will consider such another tall tell. I can understand that. I think we both consider the Fisch and Breckinridge meeting a high possibility so why couldn't Fisch be so daring to seek such an acquaintance. My theory all along has been if there was STRONG inside help Whately would be my suspect and for several reasons.
The big question like any other suspect is motive. I have none to mention. I believe if anyone placed he thumb guard where it was found my suspicion would be O. Whately (when he drove out to get flashlights). If anyone could move about the house so freely I would consider O. Whately. Ollie probably knew the home's strengths and weakness for such a snatch.
What do you think? Whats makes Manke's claim one to consider ?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 22, 2008 8:02:28 GMT -5
You have to be careful with the "insider" approach. Once you take this turn you may never get back. It can blind you to other possibilities and cause you to seriously consider the many false claims circulating around at the expense of actual evidence. Besides the many problems with having a household "insider", one has to consider that this person would not be the accomplice, but rather the primary participant. Think about it. The guy on the ladder has the easy job. That certainly changes the the chemistry of this collaboration.
Off-Topic; Jack, the only way to end the war(s) is to institute the draft. That's when the war will really hit home, when we stop relying on middle aged IR's doing multiple tours and start calling up everyone's kids.
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Post by Michael on Jun 22, 2008 8:21:59 GMT -5
Mancke seems to tie him into this as well.
I find him to be one of the usual suspects. It seems most people never consider Mrs. Whateley or Mrs. Lindbergh, otherwise, everyone else seems to be fair game (in both households).
I think the Breckenridge account is so important because its coming from Breck. If it were anyone else we probably would be up in the air and falling on the side of disregard.
Manke's claim seems to be something of interest because of what I said previously, however, I don't see much interest in them coming from the Hoffman Investigation. I wonder why, and usually if he shows no interest there's probably a reason - but that's also a huge assumption on my part. I don't know. I plan on searching for more on them and Mrs. Bonesteel from the Hoffman investigation perspective and I'll see if I missed anything and get back to you.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 22, 2008 21:26:01 GMT -5
For Kevkon: You're right (about the draft) and it will happen. I live just a few miles from Ellsworth AFB (home of the stealth bombers) and you should see the helicopters zooming and lumbering around here nowdays. Same thing happened before Afghanistan and Iraq (I wasn't here for Kuwait - so not sure). The U.S. Airforce can totally knock out a desert countries communications in about two hours - duh, who's gonna win? - but then that country has to be manned by loyal people in an extremely hostile environment - aka Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran. Invasion of Iran is on the horizon, and the draft certainly is too as you pointed out. Obama reminds me a lot of Hitler who got the job (leader of a very large country) entirely vocally! Hitler's first act was to implement the draft . Obama is gonna win unless he gets shot (and hey satellite sweep I ain't gonna do it - I don't do that junk no more) and he'll have no choice but to implement the draft by my reckoning, because I think Bush will either invade as a lame duck or plant the invasion right on his lap similarly to the way all was planted on Bush with 911. Hey Bush haters - anybody happy about not being invaded in seven years?
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Post by Michael on Jun 23, 2008 9:43:47 GMT -5
A New York American clip stated that it was said that Violet Sharpe and Isadore Fisch had attended at a spiritualistic "church" in Harlem located at 30 West 125th Street (unreadable) by Birratella. Isadore Fisch lived at 149 East 127 th Street. Birratella lived at 324 West 114th St. Telephone Lehigh4 - 4839. Isadore Fisch lived with a party named George Kohl at the East 127th street address. (R#14, P#1) [Det George Foster, Bergen County Police, 1-24-36]
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2008 15:06:14 GMT -5
For Kevkon: It seemed to me that Chico and Groucho were riding in a horse drawn wagon with Chico at the reins when that viaduct came up but I'm sure you're right - I remember them bending over the plans for a hotel. Seems Groucho moved good in that one - didn't he have an older aristocratic lover - not so dumb, Groucho. I had, I think, all of the Stooges on VHS and lost them in a divorce to someone who never even giggled at them. Stooges had tons of film - and Marx brothers certainly not enough, as well as the others - could have gone on zaney forever. Remember "Hellzapoppin" where the delivery man is carrying a little plant to start out with and looking for Mrs. Jones, and the plant keeps getting bigger until he's carrying around a tree and still looking for Mrs. Jones. To the Lindbergh point, I doubt any experienced criminal would have considered TLC as viable without inside help, and BRH was a quite experienced criminal. Many things should be considered which the outsider would have no or little knowledge of such as: Ollie was sent around to lock all the house windows but they weren't all locked, so of course knowing the correct window. Most likely some were later unlocked rather than being locked, because to be involved Ollie would have had to have done a lot of drifting around the house with the dog in tow. If he signaled someone for entry the dog would be right there, active, and alert. Lindbergh was not supposed to be home that night. The wipe-down has to do with Ollie's wandering, but somebody did wipe as has been proven by Michael. There are other issues as well - why didn't the baby cry? Silencing CALIII would make noise no matter how they did it, and people were possibly ten feet away. Entry (which quite possibly didn't happen) into a dark atmosphere - it would take two hands to get in so the kidnapper couldn't hold a flashlight - could have made lots of noise as well as exit (more noise) with the baby. The insider would have had to be at the scene of the crime. Possibly there were two insiders, Violet and Betty( to cover each location), but more likely just Betty because she could be at either site. No matter what those antagonistic to the insider theory say, the more Betty is looked at the more suspicious she becomes.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2008 16:06:19 GMT -5
There's the KEY! Ollie was sent around to lock all the windows and Betty opened one (French Window), but supposedly not the entry window. So either Oliver didn't lock the entry window - HMM, why not....... - or Betty unlocked it. Oliver could never have wiped (window lock was clean on an excellent surface for prints) because of his never being seen upstairs (remember the dog would tag - there'd really be two to see) - so Betty opened, or unlocked the entry window! Crime Solved - Insider - Betty! On to Jack The Ripper - do you know the significance of the nickname "Jem"?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 23, 2008 16:25:43 GMT -5
Jack, You may doubt an experienced criminal would attempt an entry without an inside accomplice, but the fact of the matter is that it happens all the time. Granted we are talking about the LKC, but still one has to admit that criminals have performed equally brazen acts. Regarding Michael proving that the Nursery was "wiped down", I can't agree. Lack of identifiable latents or the ability to reveal and lift them does not equate to an erasure of prints. It may, but it also may be the result of many factors. Once again, consult a forensic technician. As for the darkness in that room, here we are again confronted with a similar situation as that regarding the mud. That is to say that there is a range of conditions. Just how dark was it? Can anyone say for certain? I think not. Everyone will form an opinion on these matters and I am sure that these opinions will be partly based on the particular view of the crime held by the individual. Silencing the baby is problematic no matter how one looks at it and an insider really doesn't bring that much of an advantage here. I would also point out that a single momentary cry might easily be dismissed by anyone hearing it. You are naturally conditioned to respond to continuous crying. As for the window locks, do you really think anyone intent on entering a second floor window wouldn't be prepared to overcome this? Homes are broken into all of the time despite locks and security systems. Now look at the incredible risk posed by having an inside accomplice. A risk shared by both the insider and the outsider. it's the weakest link in the chain. You would do everything in your power as the outsider to minimize that risk and that means undertaking the crime in a manner which leaves no suspicion of the assistance of an insider.
Jack, my buddy and I were regulars at a local bar and we enjoyed the privilege of the remote for the tv. We would always put on the Stooges and watched as the other patrons would first get pissed then soon start laughing along. How can't you?
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