jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 21, 2016 21:54:43 GMT -5
A very basic crime.
Hauptmann probably had no idea of anything that Lindbergh did. I doubt there was inside help - Hauptmann didn't need it. Only Richard himself would act because of Anna's work hours. Coordinating with Anna's hours, an insider, and Charles' doings is farfetched. Hauptmann just got lucky when the Lindbergs happened to be home on Anna's Tuesday night of working. If Charles or somebody else is there too bad for them if they get in the way.
Englewood wasn't really very secure, especially as far as the Lindbergh wing went, but Hauptmann probably had no idea of things like that. Hopewell was remote and so it was where the crime happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 22:57:28 GMT -5
Hi, Amy. Question. When you went to Highfields, did you go inside? Hi Rebekah, Welcome back to the board! I only looked around the outside of the house. The day I was there I had been in the New Jersey area for other business and decided to take a chance to see if I could see the house. You need to make an appointment to go inside. I am planning another trip for that purpose. I hope that they will allow me to take some pictures of the inside while I am there.
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 21, 2016 22:57:49 GMT -5
Thanks Amy, I agree that Englewood would not be practical. I was just expressing if you had the mind to kidnap Jr back then you would have to consider what location they were at . This is especially so if it was planned a long time as CJ said to Condon.
As for me I never went inside the house. I had wished to. I imagine its not the same being a boys home and all since. The only time I got close was when I went on the Hopewell tour and was able to drive up to the house and at least look in the window and see the stairway then go to the side and look up to the nursery windows. Just that alone was haunting in of itself. I hope someday another opportunity will come around.
"Wouldn't be touched." is kind of chilling isn't it. I wonder who promised her that ? Lindbergh ? I guess Charles really did believe he was going to control the investigation. I suppose he was right.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 23:13:17 GMT -5
A very basic crime. Hauptmann probably had no idea of anything that Lindbergh did. I doubt there was inside help - Hauptmann didn't need it. Only Richard himself would act because of Anna's work hours. Coordinating with Anna's hours, an insider, and Charles' doings is farfetched. Hauptmann just got lucky when the Lindbergs happened to be home on Anna's Tuesday night of working. If Charles or somebody else is there too bad for them if they get in the way. Englewood wasn't really very secure, especially as far as the Lindbergh wing went, but Hauptmann probably had no idea of things like that. Hopewell was remote and so it was where the crime happened. You are wrong, Jack. This crime took planning. It wasn't just dumb luck. Next Day HIll had a night watchman. Highfields did not. Next Day Hill was not curbside like it is today. You had to use a private drive to reach the house. I believe there was also an inside security man in the Englewood house. Highfields had no security except Wahgoosh. It was the softer target.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 21, 2016 23:58:21 GMT -5
I don't think so.
If he'd have planned the crime other than the basics, he wouldn't even have been there on 3/1/32 - he'd have known the Lindberghs wouldn't be there. He left the ladder and possibly chisel behind which tied Hauptmann to the kidnapping crime. He had no plan for actually getting the cash, first using Breckenridge as an intermediary, then Condon when he came along. He used many ransom notes mostly saying and amounting to nothing. He probably used two cab drivers (for sure one) as go-betweens who could possibly identify him. CJ's first meeting at the cemetery was for over an hour and he didn't even collect any money and greatly risked Condon identifying him. His second meeting he got twenty thousand dollars less than he was asking for, and again risked identification.
Charlie's body was eventually found which amounted to a murder charge for Hauptmann. If the body would have disappeared that charge most likely wouldn't have been possible.
There's more, but just considering the above, where's this great planning some are talking about?
There were no guards in Lindbergh's area of Next Day Hill and no guards outside those buildings at night.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 22, 2016 0:28:56 GMT -5
He didn't have the foresight (which would amount to planning on his part) of the investigators so he didn't request "no gold notes" on the ransom note.
He wrote Condon's address and telephone number on a door at his house and didn't erase them when he didn't need them anymore. He admitted doing that under oath.
He spent money which he thought unusual enough to secret away at a gas station where his auto license plate was visible.
Well planned?
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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2016 6:16:29 GMT -5
I don't think so. If he'd have planned the crime other than the basics, he wouldn't even have been there on 3/1/32 - he'd have known the Lindberghs wouldn't be there. He left the ladder and possibly chisel behind which tied Hauptmann to the kidnapping crime. What exactly are the "basics?" There's nothing basic, or simple about this crime. The ladder itself shows planning in more ways then one. To build it to exact specs, not only to reach the window but to fit into the louvers for stability. To build it to "nest" so that it could be easily concealed inside of a car, and then carried from one place to another. Then again the Ransom Note. To create a perfect identifier in the "secret symbol." This is not indicative of an Immigrant Carpenter who just one day said "what the hell" then drove done to Hopewell hoping he'd find the Estate. It was targeted and precise.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 22, 2016 9:19:27 GMT -5
Unfortunately all we've got is an immigrant carpenter - illegal to boot.
Basics are knowing where the victim is, having a few notes prepared, having some idea of a basic variable plan of action and escape route, and having a plan for acquiring the ransom money. Every physical kidnapping would involve all of these.
Regarding TLC, and in addition to the above posts:
He didn't fit the ladder inside the louvers for stability though he could have if the shutters had been mostly open. That probably would have made more noise.
The ladder broke using just two of the three sections. Was testing it under expected weight part of his preplanning?
He risked capture at each of the cemetery meetings, especially since for all that we know, and the evidence we have, the child's body could have been already found at the time of those meetings and CJ was entering into a police trap.
He evidently planned to kill Charley, or, at any rate, the child wound up dead which in the long run turned out to be a very bad plan for Hauptmann.
I don't think the kidnapping was planned much beyond that it was thought to be a quick 50k.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 22, 2016 14:54:28 GMT -5
Jack,
The one thing I have always found true about this case, The Lindbergh Case, is that if you have a theory your working on (Of course it is always based only on the facts, that which is in the record!) when something is introduced outside the known record you simply say, "Thats not true!" An expert, someone who has given years to research and only used the three classic "known" sources (NJSP, NYPD and FBI) I think is limited in their thinking. They don't have the whole picture, just a part of it. Fisher is a prime example, he used the files. The files of the NJSP. I could have exposed him to other aspects of the case, but no, the files it's all there. He told me once that "there is so much in the file that people have missed."Look what he produced. Anyone who spends all there time going back and forth to Trenton does not have and will never have the complete story. I don't care what they think they have found for the first time.
If its not part of the record, NJSP, FBI and NYPD the information is no good. If we're in say, Canada , and challenged the account of the Holocaust you could go to jail. Sometimes I see the same lack of interest and in a sence a chill in the challenge to the treditional story of this case.
Any new book or theory that starts out with, "I want to thank Mark at the NJSP Archives, knows what the files know, and nothing else. Jack, now watch the posts! The question will be asked, "what else is there?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 22, 2016 15:47:37 GMT -5
K. Here's some else:
The third section (top) of the ladder wasn't used, but was carried to the crime scene. Planning? I used to think BRH scouted the Lindbergh's home building ahead of time, but because of that third section ladder fact now I doubt that he even did that. It was obvious from the ground that he didn't need the third section. It would have been easy to figure out what room was the child's was if he didn't know ahead of time, just by being nearby around "lights out." And he proceeded from there.
Interestingly, though the third section of the ladder wasn't even used in the crime, it was left behind and was the one made with a board from Richard's attic, linking him further to TLC.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 22, 2016 16:38:14 GMT -5
How U B Jack?
Hauptmann brought three sections of the ladder to crime scene. Because, he had no idea when leaving the Bronx how high he was going to have to climb. Is that what your saying? . I always believed he knew where the house was located, generally, and where the kid slept, generally, but till he got there he wasn't sure.
Check out where Millard says he saw Hauptmann wandering around. If Hauptmann knew where he was going there's no reason for him to be exploring. When Millard saw him he didn't know the exact location. Therefore, first trip to location maybe? Is that what your saying? Can't wait to see the posts on that concept.
Planning? Yes. Hauptman planed to go to Hopewell, New Jersey and kidnap the Lindbergh Baby. He had no idea going to Hopewell how high the nursery window was. He tried three sections. Too much. Tried two sections. Perfect! Is that what yor saying?
Jack how can we make ths more complicated ?
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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2016 18:30:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately all we've got is an immigrant carpenter - illegal to boot. Basics are knowing where the victim is, having a few notes prepared, having some idea of a basic variable plan of action and escape route, and having a plan for acquiring the ransom money. I guess my question would be how this guy would be able to prepare for what you consider the basics? That would take a lot of work. And if he could do that, then why not more? The third section did fit into those louvers. Now the question appears to be whether or not it was utilized - as designed. Key word here is "design." The theory I've seen is that it was not because the shutters were closed. The Cemetery was a different issue but are you suggesting that too wasn't planned? If someone is acting as if they aren't afraid of being captured why accept only one scenario to explain that when there are multiple choices one could make? It couldn't possibly be about a "quick" 50K when there was nothing quick about it, and, when they had an extra 20K turned it down because they "cared" about Lindbergh's financial situation. Once anyone steps back then looks at everything individually, and once finished then looks at everything as a whole, there are certain things that stand out. First is there is evidence that specific and important things were planned and known about in advance. This is explained by someone driving around and accidentally finding Highfields, or once there, sitting in the woods with a pair of binoculars - then adlibbing their way through each step that must be accomplished with a degree of luck that is just as fantastic as the idea itself. When there is both evidence of planning and then knowledge they could not have gotten themselves then the choice becomes either luck or assistance. Luck can happen. Say if someone "falls" off a ladder but doesn't get injured. Unlikely but not impossible. But when they start to add up, say 9, 10, 11 instances where this level of luck must occur - all in the same night - there is something incorrect with that theory. If its not part of the record, NJSP, FBI and NYPD the information is no good. If we're in say, Canada , and challenged the account of the Holocaust you could go to jail. Sometimes I see the same lack of interest and in a sence a chill in the challenge to the treditional story of this case. Any new book or theory that starts out with, "I want to thank Mark at the NJSP Archives, knows what the files know, and nothing else. Jack, now watch the posts! The question will be asked, "what else is there? Yes and no. If any book doesn't thank Mark there's something wrong somewhere. The NJSP Archive is an absolute must. I've gone religiously for 15 years and continued to learn each and every time I went. However, I do agree that certain people will assume nothing else exists if they haven't seen it. It could be in another Archive, or could be right at the NJSP, but if they haven't seen it then to them it doesn't count - I get that. And so if it really does then they attack the source - because they have no other choice. I been to many Archives and I have sources no one has ever laid eyes on. And so I expect that reaction once I ruin all the other positions with the facts I've assembled.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 22, 2016 18:39:20 GMT -5
OK Dave - Did you decide on a number?
Millard maybe did see him, and it must be that Hauptmann wasn't very experienced with ladders. I've worked with them quite a bit and would know how many feet of ladder I needed to reach a certain window as most guys who've worked on roofs and buildings would. For one thing, at the Lindbergh kidnapping, the ladder base should have been placed closer to the house if possible - probably a foot to two feet would have done it. Then maybe it wouldn't have broken. The only time I've ever seen anything like that kidnap ladder is construction ladders which are actually mounted on a building under construction's wall. That way there's no stress on the center joint which was the fault in Richard's ladder. But if it couldn't go closer to the building you just use what you've got and get the job done.
I think there's an equally good chance though, that he'd never even seen the house so he just brought along what he thought he'd need for a two story. And it worked. Bottom line - IMO Richard had never been to the Lindbergh home before 3/1/32.
Part of his plan was probably if worst came to worst (shooting or fight) he'd throw the baby out the window and jump and scoot with the child.
Anyway, as far as being prepared was concerned, in this case he was prepared to a fault.
"How can we make this more complicated?"
How about if Richard didn't get caught for a while so lots of people think he never did anything wrong except hoard Fisch's gold bills.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 22, 2016 19:24:53 GMT -5
Jack,
Did we just catch it from Michael or what?!?!?!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 22, 2016 19:41:30 GMT -5
Dave:
We sure did!
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 22, 2016 20:45:31 GMT -5
Interesting. From where were those shotguns supposedly recovered? I was only aware of his small Lilliput pistol. Can anyone give us a complete list of all the firearms found by authorities to be in Hauptmann's ownership at the time of his arrest?
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Post by stella7 on Jan 22, 2016 22:34:34 GMT -5
and that drive up to the house is a long one. I cannot see anyone finding this house in 1932, especially at night, unless they had driven to it before and more than once.
I agree Amy, that is one long driveway, I drove up to the house once as well. Who would have driven up that drive , in the dark, in the wind and rain, presumably with their lights off so they wouldn't be seen, unless they knew exactly where they were going or knew that there would be no consequences if they were caught?
Dave, do you think that Hauptmann intended to kill the baby or was it an accident. Also, what are your thoughts about JAFSIE. Was his involvement just a coincidence?
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Post by Michael on Jan 23, 2016 9:48:36 GMT -5
Jack, Did we just catch it from Michael or what?!?!?! Nah, don't take it that way.... just a different perspective that's all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 10:18:14 GMT -5
They don't have the whole picture, just a part of it. Fisher is a prime example, he used the files. The files of the NJSP. I could have exposed him to other aspects of the case, but no, the files it's all there. He told me once that "there is so much in the file that people have missed."Look what he produced. I am reading Fisher's book (for the first time) right now. There are errors in that book that really shouldn't have been in there. I am on chapter 3 right now and he has dates mixed up, events on wrong dates and other things that he is wrong about. He really didn't have a good understanding of this case. He should have spent more time getting the basics clear and working with people who did know the case really well and learned from them. You tried to help him, Dave. Too bad for him he didn't take advantage of your offer of help.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 10:35:40 GMT -5
Englewood wasn't really very secure, especially as far as the Lindbergh wing went, but Hauptmann probably had no idea of things like that. Hopewell was remote and so it was where the crime happened. Hey Jack, Just thought you might be interested in knowing that there was no "Lindbergh wing" at the Englewood house in March of 1932. The Lindberghs started planning this wing in June of 1932 after they decided that they could not live at Highfields and feel secure there. So every kidnapping involves planning. That is what you are describing. They just don't happen without it. The Lindbergh kidnapping required planning too or it would never have happened.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2016 12:05:08 GMT -5
No - my comments are to show it wasn't "well-planned." In some instances, like the undisposal of Charlie's body, hardly or not planned at all.
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2016 12:17:35 GMT -5
And there is at least one book which outlines how the Morrow mansion could have been the original intended kidnapping site including ladder to house measurements, guard movements, etc. I'll look it up for you some day. I'm just like Richard Hauptmann, I know nothing about the "Lindbergh Wing," but you'd think whether there was one or not yet, they'd have an area to themselves in that big house. I remember the nursery window could be gotten to by short ladder from a roof and that was why they thought the ladder was in three sections, and that the security was not really as intense as it sounds like it would have been.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2016 12:38:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure about your credentials anymore anyway, Amy35, after you swiped material and quickly posted it as your own.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 12:55:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure about your credentials anymore anyway, Amy35, after you swiped material and quickly posted it as your own. What are you talking about Jack? I have never claimed to have any credentials. I am just a reader and a poster here. Nothing special. I don't swipe material either.
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 23, 2016 13:03:10 GMT -5
What are the basics of storing or dumping the child? What are the basics of accounting to Anna where you were if the event took past the closing of the bakery?
I suppose the lookout at Woodlawn and St Raymonds suspected was all in their heads. Then you add a servant who couldn't give straight answers yet appears still innocent of anything commits suicide. Schwarzkopf couldn't get passed it was an inside job. Yet I am to believe Hauptmann rolls into Hopewell finds the house and the window and the room Jr was in all in sync to just getting the right breaks?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2016 13:18:44 GMT -5
I'm not going to keep going into it, Amy. If it comes to anything I'll show the posts and the dates to Michael. It was a clear lift.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 13:25:28 GMT -5
I'm not going to keep going into it, Amy. If it comes to anything I'll show the posts and the dates to Michael. It was a clear lift. Feel free to send him whatever you want!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2016 13:25:37 GMT -5
And I only pointed that out because now you're going after me on here. If you're not aware that the Morrow Mansion was considered by investigators as a possible target for the kidnapper you're not as great of a student of TLC as you think you are.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2016 13:31:14 GMT -5
Who sends who what is not your call. Facts matter. You're not involved anymore Amy35.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 13:41:37 GMT -5
I am not going after you Jack. You used the Lindbergh wing in your post about it not being protected. It didn't exist then. I just thought you should know that for future reference. I have certainly had my attention called to things that were in error in my posts. I am glad to know about it because I don't want to continue to make the same mistake and am glad to learn what is correct.
We all post our thoughts and ideas, Jack. We aren't always going to agree with each other. That is how blogs work.
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