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Post by xjd on Jan 6, 2016 16:59:55 GMT -5
hello everyone and happy 2016! to feed my true crime addiction, recently i've been reading several pages on reddit. how very hip of me, i know however, someone started a thread on the LKC and recently posted some pictures from the NJSP museum: imgur.com/a/sZbF8. a little ways down in the image file is a picture of a business letter Hauptmann wrote. i guess i had never seen a picture with a full-view of a piece of Richard's correspondence before. but even a picture of an exhibit through a glass case caused me to say dang if that doesn't look like the ransom notes. i guess i need to complete reading the items in this board's subthread! fwiw i commented on the reddit site directing folks to this excellent board. i look forward to reading more from everyone on the most baffling case in 2016!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 7, 2016 12:03:40 GMT -5
xjd:
I couldn't tell from the attachment which Hauptmann letter you are talking about. Is the letter in a book or posted on here that you know of?
Jack
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Post by Michael on Jan 7, 2016 17:28:31 GMT -5
to feed my true crime addiction, recently i've been reading several pages on reddit. how very hip of me, i know however, someone started a thread on the LKC and recently posted some pictures from the NJSP museum: imgur.com/a/sZbF8. Thanks for posting this. It looks like someone enjoyed their visit! When you walk into the Museum, the Archives are on the right and separate from the area shown in those photos.
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Post by xjd on Jan 7, 2016 21:48:21 GMT -5
hello jack7, the picture i'm referring to is about the 11th or 12th pic down under the photo of the diagram of BRH's attic. see if this link works: i.imgur.com/YH0xeNX.jpg
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 7, 2016 21:57:44 GMT -5
To xjd, jack7, Michael,All:
Please see my recent post regarding the Hauptmann business letter on the sub-thread titled "Did Hauptmann Write This?"
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 8, 2016 4:55:25 GMT -5
That worked, xjd. I think so too (similarities) and have always felt NYPD could have caught BRH earlier by handwriting but it wouldn't have brought Jr. back, and in the end would have just put Richard in jail for another year or so.
Hurtelable - the business letter xjd refers to is the $ 74.89 debit balance one. Yours the same?
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Post by Michael on Jan 8, 2016 6:28:39 GMT -5
To xjd, jack7, Michael,All:Please see my recent post regarding the Hauptmann business letter on the sub-thread titled "Did Hauptmann Write This?"
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 8, 2016 17:33:32 GMT -5
Yes. That short business letter offers an opportunity for handwriting comparison to Ransom Note # 1, since, e.g., both start with "Dear Sir" and both contain dollar signs and numerical digits.
Although a comparison of only those two documents is insufficient to offer a definitive opinion, it seems as if they MAY have been written by the same writer. (This represents a change of opinion for me; previously, I had been confident that Hauptmann didn't write any of the ransom notes.)
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Post by lightningjew on Jan 8, 2016 17:56:29 GMT -5
Michael, What's you view on why the kidnappers didn't simply type a ransom letter and avoid any chance of having anyone's handwriting identified?
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Post by xjd on Jan 8, 2016 18:57:52 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Jan 8, 2016 19:38:39 GMT -5
Michael, that's you view on why the kidnappers didn't simply type a ransom letter and avoid any chance of having anyone's handwriting identified? I'd like to get it on the record what yours is first. That way there's no confusion about who came up with my idea after I post it. here's the latest installment of this reddit poster's series on the LKC: surprise_b1tch: Forgot one! Oops: While no useful, full prints were found in the baby's bedroom, smudges and marks were found. The bedroom, windowsill, etc. had not been wiped clean - there were just no full prints that could be used.After taking a peek I am going to have to stay off of that page for now. However, I've quoted something above that needs to be addressed. My question is this: How does one thing equal the other? Try this at home... Leave fingerprints. Later, wipe down the areas you believe prints were left. Come back in the next day then powder the entire area. What do you get? Answer: Marks and/or Smudges.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 8, 2016 22:17:31 GMT -5
Hey Jack, Been away for a while, but it's always great to see the on going interest in the case. Now, regarding the letter Richard wrote. In April of 1983 Cornel Plebani and I were going through some of the evidence that was still in boxes from the basement were it had been stored since after the trial. I had read in Tony's book "Scapegoat" about Richard saying that his "Big Book" needed to be found. Well I found it in the box I was going through. The book showed how he kept track of every cent he had. You need to check it out! Its a great item to look through. Well in the "Big Book" I found the letter you guys are all talking about. It's a great example of Richard's way of writing a letter.
What do you think Jack? Did he write the ransom notes also?
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Post by lightningjew on Jan 8, 2016 22:34:02 GMT -5
Hey Michael, Honestly, I really don't know. Given that debit note in Hauptmann's handwriting, which I think is real close to the nursery note, maybe Hauptmann was being set up as a fall guy by someone trying to mimic his writing? I mean, even if Hauptmann did pull this whole thing off alone, I still think he would've thought to use a non-traceable method of communication (like typed notes). It doesn't make sense to write them out unless the writing is meant to be traced. I don't see Hauptmann writing the notes voluntarily, since he would've known they'd be traceable. So either he (or someone) was coerced into writing the notes, or someone was trying to forge Hauptmann's writing (at least with the nursery note) to set him up. Anyway, that's my thought on it. What's yours?
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Post by xjd on Jan 8, 2016 22:40:30 GMT -5
it's a really good question as to why the ransom notes where not typed. seems like Richard indulged in every other gadget/toy (fancy radio, binoculars, canoe, etc.) he could buy, so why not a typewriter? especially as a would-be business man & financial stock market player. yeah, i'm not saying the reddit site is all that and a bag of chips but it's entertaining. the poster who started the thread quotes the Cahill book extensively, and unfortunately for me i found that book hard to read. reddit has it's uses tho' which for me has been to follow up on and even discover new unsolved mysteries/crimes.
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Post by Michael on Jan 9, 2016 0:03:25 GMT -5
It doesn't make sense to write them out unless the writing is meant to be traced. I don't see Hauptmann writing the notes voluntarily, since he would've known they'd be traceable. So either he (or someone) was coerced into writing the notes, or someone was trying to forge Hauptmann's writing (at least with the nursery note) to set him up. Anyway, that's my thought on it. What's yours? There are several observations to make. Firstly, they wanted to be identified - the symbol proves that. If you're looking at a typed letter with the symbol then there could be a question as to whether or not someone got a hold of the code, in fact there still is even to this day. The handwriting along with the symbol prevents that (IMO) proving they are the right party. Next, typically only educated people typed - and even some educated people did not. The Bobby Franks ransom notes were typed AND they had killed him. Finally, the notes were written as it was believed they should be in order to indicate this was a real kidnapping. Look at some other examples which predated the LKC: Coughlin Kidnapping, Edward Cudahy, Jr. Kidnapping, and even the Constance Morrow Extortion (I believe all three were remembered in the creation of these notes). But here too look at the Ramsey case - that note was modeled after the Bobby Franks but hand written (by Patsy according to some Handwriting Experts). So even in our life time if someone wanted to make something look legit they used examples to mimic or model after as they believed would have been done had the crime been real. Nothing was done to "set someone up." The idea was that no one was supposed to get caught.
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Post by Michael on Jan 9, 2016 0:09:17 GMT -5
reddit has it's uses tho' which for me has been to follow up on and even discover new unsolved mysteries/crimes. I wasn't putting the site down. It's just me trying not to get distracted - I have to stay here because if I wonder off I might not be able to find my way home.
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Post by lightningjew on Jan 9, 2016 0:54:06 GMT -5
I would agree that the notes were written so the writing could be identified as coming from the right parties, expect that almost all the notes had what at least appeared to be different handwriting. That being the case, how would the handwriting be used as an indicator that all the notes came from the same, authentic parties? In any case, just to sum up, your idea is that the notes were written instead of typed to lend authenticity to the whole thing, since that's how ransom notes were typically composed?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 9, 2016 4:51:54 GMT -5
Dave!:
Been a while.
So you found that debit balance note of Richard's? Good one - important one. You're always surprising me. Remember when I was telling you about a Mafia hit on a guy who'd been outconnected for ten years and you'd been in the guy's driveway?
Seems that note does a lot to confirm handwriting and coupled with everything else points to a one man operation. If more were involved, especially over so many years, somebody would have talked to somebody. This is a dangerous thing to say because I'm sure somebody's going to come back at it but in reality to my knowledge over time there hasn't been a correct peep of other involvement.
Now everybody start gabbin' about Faulkner and footprints, etc., but all of these things are really red herring maybes - not anything like getting caught with money and a ladder rail in your pocket.
You still working on that deal with those guys down south or is that over & done? Seems I remember a lawsuit going down, but could be wrong. Been staying incountry?
Talk to ya, Jack
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 9, 2016 5:45:13 GMT -5
Arbeit Macht Frei!
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Post by xjd on Jan 9, 2016 7:57:17 GMT -5
reddit has it's uses tho' which for me has been to follow up on and even discover new unsolved mysteries/crimes. I wasn't putting the site down. It's just me trying not to get distracted - I have to stay here because if I wonder off I might not be able to find my way home. i agree! it's so easy to fall down into many "rabbit holes" reading threads about other fascinating cases, i start reading just 1 and before i know it the day has come and gone.
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Post by Michael on Jan 9, 2016 9:28:11 GMT -5
I would agree that the notes were written so the writing could be identified as coming from the right parties, expect that almost all the notes almost had what at least appeared to be different handwriting. That being the case, how would the handwriting be used as an indicator that all the notes came from the same, authentic parties? In any case, just to sum up, your idea is that the notes were written instead of typed to lend authenticity to the whole thing, since that's how ransom notes were typically composed? I don't agree about the idea the handwriting was different. The only exception being the "Boad Nelly" note (and that was done on purpose too). The Nursery Note handwriting was "different" then it was clearly demonstrated in the next note to be the same as the Writer transitioned from one "style" to the next in that note. The "kidnapping" was a well thought out plan. The symbol itself proves this. I keep hearing about how Criminals get caught because they "slip up." That may be so but where's the "slip up" here? Hauptmann did not "slip up." He was spending Ransom Money in the same manner time after time. That's not a "slip up" that's a "pattern." So we're supposed to believe the guy who, at the very least, invented the Secret Symbol - is the same person who was spending Ransom Money without disguise or fear of getting caught? Look at everything within it's proper context and this crime clearly has the fingerprints of other people all over it.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 9, 2016 12:31:31 GMT -5
I've read that the German Great War army punched holes in their battlefield messages to confirm them by matching up the holes.
The Secret Symbol may have been as much recall as invention.
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Post by Michael on Jan 9, 2016 13:57:15 GMT -5
I've read that the German Great War army punched holes in their battlefield messages to confirm them by matching up the holes. The Secret Symbol may have been as much recall as invention. The first and most important question would be the source. The second and equally important is whether or not Hauptmann had been a Cryptographer in Germany's Intelligence Section. So the next logical question would then become who made that recollection of this information - if it's true. The answer to the second question proves Hauptmann was not privy to such information.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 9, 2016 14:21:33 GMT -5
That statement sounds a lot like Richard Nixon. "I'll answer the second part of that question third and the first part of that question second and . . ."
I can't source that holes point, but I know I've read it in regards to Lindbergh.
I'm surprised you havn't heard it. I think I've mentioned it before on here and nobody commented.
Kind of like I've mentioned that most of the nails for the kidnap ladder were driven by a professional carpenter (this according to Kohler) and nobody was interested.
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 9, 2016 15:21:43 GMT -5
There are two other theories I've seen or heard regarding the origin or rationale for the particular symbol used on the ransom notes:
(1) The blue, red, and holes used in the symbol could be a cryptic way of Hauptmann "signing" his initials B. R. H. (I believe I may have seen this in Waller's book.) It turns out that in German, blue translates into "blau" and red translates into "rot" (with an umlaut over the "o"). But "holes" may translate into a German word not beginning with "h", or perhaps a word that does begin with "h", according to my German-English dictionary.
(2) The symbol may have been derived from the logo used by the German industrial giant of the time, Krupp Works.
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Post by Michael on Jan 9, 2016 17:41:43 GMT -5
]There are two other theories I've seen or heard regarding the origin or rationale for the particular symbol used on the ransom notes: (1) The blue, red, and holes used in the symbol could be a cryptic way of Hauptmann "signing" his initials B. R. H. (I believe I may have seen this in Waller's book.) It turns out that in German, blue translates into "blau" and red translates into "rot" (with an umlaut over the "o"). But "holes" may translate into a German word not beginning with "h", or perhaps a word that does begin with "h", according to my German-English dictionary. Wilentz said this in Flemington. I can't source that holes point, but I know I've read it in regards to Lindbergh. I'm surprised you havn't heard it. I think I've mentioned it before on here and nobody commented. I've heard of it (check out footnote #6): www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/ripper%20notes.pdf
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 9, 2016 18:02:28 GMT -5
Good Job!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 10, 2016 12:43:10 GMT -5
Agreed, that it was well thought out and that there could well have been some confederates upfront, but the basic accounting exercise here, seems to make it pretty apparent they disappeared into the woodwork, sometime shortly after the ransom payment. Hauptmann's 'signature' is all over this symbol.
It's much simpler than that, Michael. The main reason Hauptmann was actively spending ransom money in the summer of 1934, was that he was essentially broke and had already used up the non-gold certificates. So he basically did what he did best. Being able to look someone squarely in the eye while having a self-imposed gun to his head, addressing the situation on the fly and then coming out thinking he looks like a rose. Like having the nerve to argue with Levitano about paying for an item worth pennies with a $10 gold note and schmoozing Lyle at Warner-Quinlan. Gardner puts it quite well, saying something to the effect he had the ability to hop along to the next fence post without skipping a beat and keeping the chase happening. It's no wonder investigators were left shaking their heads after interrogating the guy who would ultimately put the State of New Jersey though a very costly and unnecessary trial.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 10, 2016 12:56:03 GMT -5
I believe it was Scotland Yard who are credited with this 'conclusion' and that they apparently they did so before Hauptmann was arrested. It's always sounded a bit ludicrous to me, in that anyone would connect a combination of colours and holes to the initials of someone who, in America, didn't really didn't even recognize his birth name of 'Bruno." 'Holes' translates to 'Locher' in German. Why not 'B' for ball, 'R' for rings and 'H' for Holes?? Take your pick. I think of this as little more than the 1930's equivalent to click-baiting and I think someone was having a little fun after the fact. And I think it can be lumped in with the esteemed Mersman Table.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 10, 2016 16:40:11 GMT -5
Where is there any evidence that it was a well planned crime?
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