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Post by sue75 on May 16, 2007 10:54:19 GMT -5
Betty's husband's name was David Gow?
Betty's rival for Red Johnson's love was Dorothy Thompson?
A bullet for Red and Betty both if they didn't cooperate?
Betty insisted that the kidnap occur at Next Day Hill because there was a woman there (Sharpe maybe or Sister Elisabeth)blackmailing Lindbergh?
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Post by Michael on May 16, 2007 16:09:34 GMT -5
I definitely know I don't have the "blackmailing" allegation or a "bullet" for Betty & Red. Those two are new to me. I may have something on the other two though....You'll have to help me out here Sue... Where are you getting this from? I may have some stuff in my files but I will need a little more in order to find it.
There was a lot of stuff flooding Schwarzkopf early on about Betty but most of it didn't pan out.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 3, 2007 19:46:16 GMT -5
Just a thought on Betty Gow: Had she handed off the baby to kidnapper, I think if nothing else but reflexively, she would have unpinned at least one side of the blanket to lift the child. Can't see any reason for her to drag the child out from under the foot of the blanket. It seems to me it would have to be someone not seeing the pins in the dark and not knowing why they couldn't get the child lifted up. And too, doubt Betty would have sent the child out without the blanket.
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Post by rmc1971 on Aug 20, 2007 18:06:04 GMT -5
It's hard for me to see Betty being involved on one level, b/c no one was closer to Charlie than her - not even his parents. But the fact that she is known to have contacted outsiders on the day of the kidnapping about the Lindbergh's whereabouts (even if it was not malicious) and the fact that she was the last person other than the the kidnappers known to have seen Charlie, will always leave a little doubt in the back of my mind. Even if that's unfair. In all honesty, if this happened today instead of back then, those 2 facts would put her high on the list of suspects.
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Post by rita on Aug 20, 2007 22:01:40 GMT -5
Think about the case details, for some reason (hero worship) everyone excuses, unreasonable actions in this case. If a maid in Jon Benets house had commit suicide what would the headlines have said, but we cannot even be certain Violet really commit suicide, and other employees also died that could have given pertinent information like Whatley.
Bette Gow was suspected of connection to Purple Gang, and even Reily brought that up in his defense case.
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Post by gary on Nov 15, 2007 10:07:35 GMT -5
#1. I always thought the primary location of Betty between 8 pm and 10:05 was from the nursery to getting a bite to eat, then from the phone call to Elsie's bedroom to look at the dress. It seems to me the majority of the time might have been in a sitting room listening to the radio. This is based on her statements. Matter in fact listening to the radio in the sitting room (alone) was done prior to Johnson's phone call and then 5 minutes or so after the phone call. I don't have the first page of the interview so I am not sure who wrote down this account but it seemed he thought it strange also because she specifically left it out when Betty accounted her wherabouts in the first portion of the questions. I just thought this was important because there seems to be time where she actually was not accounted for that night by others in the house. Who is to say she didn't turned the radio on to make a distraction and then moved on to whatever . Its not that I have any suspicions about her but I think upon investigating where everyone is why this is not considered an opportune time by those who want to subscribe possible guilt to her. Especially so when this was about 8:30- 9:15 (prime time). Keep in mind she left the radio on when she left to answer the phone.
#2. Betty Gow states the first I saw the colonel that night was when I went down and told them the baby was not in the crib. First of all who is them ? I thought Anne was in or near the bath at the time. Is it not strange the first words spoken betwen the two were that moment?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 15, 2007 17:10:49 GMT -5
Hi Gary~~Good tracking on Betty's movements. Can't recall the source, but add to those times washing out the baby's first sleeping clothes. He had spit up on them. Then she hung them up to dry in the basement. And however long she took to have her own supper.
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Post by Michael on Nov 16, 2007 6:34:51 GMT -5
I like the approach you are taking here....
Leon Ho-age had a similar technique at looking at things . Although his conclusions at times have been questioned - his methodologies were sound. I'll have to check his file when I get a chance to see if he ever made a comparison.
Something else I like to do, and you may be getting to that, is comparing all of Gow's claimed movements with those others she claimed to have been in contact with - namely Mrs. Whateley. The two should be very close in timing. I know that it was 1932 but Betty claimed to have a wrist watch, the radio was important entertainment back then, and Lindbergh was a stickler concerning what should happen when.
Here are some para-phrased facts from various sources
From her March 3rd statement:
Betty claimed to have eaten between 8 - 8:20 with the 'help.'
She claimed Mrs. Lindbergh was in the sitting room w/ Lindbergh who came in alone from NY at about 8:20.
She claims the first she saw Lindbergh was at 10:00 to tell him the baby was not in the crib.
She claimed she was in the sitting room listening to the radio when the call from Red came in around 9 or 8:50. She claimed Mrs. Whateley was in the kitchen during this time.
Claimed she went from dinner to sitting room then to the phone then back to the sitting room for about another 5 to 10 minutes until Mr. Whateley came in with her.
Went upstairs with Mrs. Whateley at about 8:45 [9:45?] and stayed until 3 minutes to 10.
Upon discovering child was missing went to Mrs. Lindbergh's room to ask her then down to Lindbergh at Anne's suggestion who was in the Library.
From her Handwritten Statement:
Thought it was a joke because she was aware of Lindbergh having the reputation of hiding the infant and pretending he was kidnapped. Miss Cummings & Anne would then search the house and find him.
From her 1935 Statement:
The dog was with me in the sitting room. Mrs. Whately joined her after serving Lindbergh dinner and suggested they go up to her room.
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Post by Michael on Nov 17, 2007 12:11:28 GMT -5
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Nov 18, 2007 8:21:13 GMT -5
If you think that some one inside the house was an accomplice that night then the absolute best method of discovery would be to combine Mark's time line with a 3-d model of Highfields. The model could be a very simple 2 floor physical model of foam core or a computer model. Once you have a model you can "plug in" the various characters and plot their movements. It should be readily apparent as to the viability of their claims and their relative positions within the house to one another and the Nursery. An added bonus would be sight lines, especially through the library window.
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Post by gary on Nov 19, 2007 1:15:25 GMT -5
I had a chance to look at Marguerite Junge's diary and police statements. Its always neat to gain a perspective of the events of this time from someone this close. She mentions Betty was very unhappy that the Lindberghs took Charlie to Hopewell. When the call came in the child was sick Betty was very upset and told MJ " you see, the poor little fellow caught a cold again over the weekend."
My question is how many times was Charlie sick at Hopewell?
Marguerite Junge mentions when Betty was in Maine a gentlemen caller approached the Morrow home and asked for Betty. He was 18 years old. The age here caught my attention. Marguerite mentions this to Betty and explains that she met him at a dance. That he was a nice fellow. Isn't this a little young Betty ? No importance here I guess but it seemed startling enough that she mentioned this to a police interview.
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Post by Michael on Nov 19, 2007 6:22:30 GMT -5
I think this is a great idea regardless of the suggestion of "inside" help because it could give a better idea about everything that happened due to the placement of those in the house. The problem would be getting the software and/or having someone build such a replica. If an actual model - we could use different colors to represent different people/times they were where they said they were.
Excellent question! My guess is he would get sick all the time. She was probably annoyed that he was being brought down there under those circumstances (knowing he was going to probably get sick again).
This is the misconception based upon Betty's demeanor with the Police and overall reputation for being "uppity." She got on the wrong side of her fellow employees for refusing to do certain things she claimed weren't her job. Perhaps certain people would attach this to her being Scotch, or otherwise, but that seems to be where her snobbishness ended. Red Johnson was certainly no prize - and remember that she was caught by Police with him with her pants down (no pun intended). Maine for her was probably boring and lonely.
This too is why I would never simply dismiss the rumors that she and Lindbergh were intimate.
It is very important and I wish this diary was completed. It's valuable to see the things people said once they were away from the situation. Being candid, certain facts are revealed which otherwise were concealed. While we do have to be careful not to attach every secret directly to the crime, I think it is critical to have these things available to consider.
For instance, Betty predicted a kidnapping. Maybe this is important, then again - maybe its not.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Nov 19, 2007 7:28:44 GMT -5
A model would also be a great addition to the NJSP Museum exhibit as well (Hint, Mark).
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Post by sue75 on Dec 1, 2007 22:35:08 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on May 17, 2008 20:54:51 GMT -5
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2008 0:37:17 GMT -5
For Sue 75: Are you 75 years old? Did you notice that as soon as you bring up something interesting on this board several (used to be two now three) immediately refute it? I brought up Betty a while back but was concerned about going into it because of the way I was riled already. I'm near to giving up here, and my main issue still isn't resolved (meaning people won't accept facts.) Re: Betty - Remember I said she was caught with her pants down? So that was glossed over - but that could be a big thing if she was caught on camera with her pants down! Also I commented how Red had VD and that wasn't even mentioned again by these guys. I believe Betty was the insider, and escaped to England or Scotland with her honor - never to see Red again - perhaps some kind of set-up. With her honor is probably the important issue here - as far as we know she never got much money, but perhaps something more importantly.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2008 1:04:50 GMT -5
For Michael: Duh? Does it take a computer analysis to figure out where five people were within two hours? Lets get it down right now. Is there a liar? Who is the drifter? The ones unsubstantiated and we really don't know about are Anne and Charles. But others would have been watching them to wait on them and such. That really leaves Betty being the unknown - did Ollie's wife say that it was true they looked at her dress for an hour - sound strange? If she was so aloof why would she relate to Ollie's wife? The reason Lindbergh hasn't been figured out is that it's an organized crime crime and it probably never will be figured out for that reason. Why? Because they are smarter than mez, says Popeye.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 18, 2008 6:15:22 GMT -5
Careful Jackie
This isn't the hoax board where pigs fly. Say what you want, post what you will. As long as you have the integrity and guts to stand behind it.
Do you have what it takes Jack?
Rather bitch and whine? Make unsupported claims? Have a hissy fit when challenged? If so, Conspiracy Air always has room for a few more pilots. Nice and comfy there, plenty of nuts to go around as well. Promise, I'll respect your airspace.
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Post by Michael on May 18, 2008 7:09:34 GMT -5
One thing it does prove (caught with her pants down) is while Betty is "up-idy" she certainly wasn't on the level of high moral standards one would expect from someone who portrays themselves in this way. Next, I've always wondered if Betty was infected if Red was (and he was as you've said) then was Betty? I've found nothing which reveals the answer to this.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2008 16:03:44 GMT -5
For Michael: As far as I know Betty never married, and certainly she even said she never saw Red again after they both were back across the pond, although he seemed a little lowlife compared to her. Brings up questions - she was pretty cute. If she is looked at not innocently, the first thing she did after the discovery was to question Anne about the baby's whereabouts, and the second thing was to ACCUSE Charles of having him. Shifting blame? More than once? According to testimony, her accusation of Charles sounds like more than just a question. She was stuck having to find the child missing because of her duty roster, but she was also alone in the proximity of the child during at least some of the time when he could have been taken. It could have been pretty easily timed with the light while she was washing out things in her bathroom. If there was a larger element to the crime which she was involved with (involuntarily I'm sure) one thing that has to be remembered is that crooks don't play fair.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 18, 2008 18:40:06 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me exactly what connects Betty Gow to this crime other than the fact she was the baby's nanny? I'm talking about true and verifiable criminal intent here, not individually collected accounts from still-shellshocked witnesses that didn't click with each others like Swiss clockwork.
What's her connection to Hauptmann, who built the ladder, wrote the notes and had Lindbergh money in his garage, among other incriminating evidence? What connects these two individuals? Nothing that I've ever seen unless you believe Reilly' clumsy courtroom attempt to hang her by her thumbs.
She died 60 plus years after the crime, still believing because of an unanswered letter that the Lindberghs blamed her in part for their child's death. Probably the most innocent case principal who paid the largest price for her "guilt by association." A real shame.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 18, 2008 20:14:22 GMT -5
Well we now know that, like Violet, Betty was a slut. Isn't that proof enough? Remember Joe, never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy! And NO refutin!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 18, 2008 21:07:38 GMT -5
You're right Kevin, thanks for the wake up call. And I'm sure there's little doubt J. Edgar Hoover, cross-dresser that he was, was the source of the lipstick and makeup found on some of the ransom bills. I temporarily misplaced my objectivity.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 19, 2008 7:03:24 GMT -5
And to think some say nothing ever gets resolved! Betty Gow - Attractive spinster with loose morals
- Attracted to men of questionable means and breeding
- Probably syphilitic
- Liked toasted sandwiches and men (together?)
- Wears pants
- Shifty
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 19, 2008 7:23:08 GMT -5
And don't forget - likes to knit in the courtroom while chatting to reporters.
This, most certainly is proof she was of the same ilk as the depraved wenches who calmly knitted and gossiped while cackling their approval of the lopped heads being held up during those halcyon days of the French Revolution.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 19, 2008 8:58:22 GMT -5
Good point Joe. Does anyone know exactly what type of toasted sandwiches she consumed at the Amwell Farms lunch stand during her trysts? It could prove to be a valuable key here to her persona and reveal a lot about her role in the kidnapping. I think most kidnappers prefer cheese on plain toasted bread. The absence of any condiments or meat displays a kind of ruthless single minded determination and is best suited for quick get aways. I'm sure an FBI profiler would love to get a hold of her dinner menu. Wow, we're really cookin now!
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Post by Michael on May 19, 2008 18:25:49 GMT -5
I just think if you believe, like I do, that someone on the inside gave and/or assisted with information or otherwise then you have only a limited amount of suspects to choose from.
Gow would be one of those suspects would she not?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 19, 2008 20:57:50 GMT -5
Sure. If I were convinced that someone on the inside assisted in the crime, I would probably focus on Gow or Anne. However, I wouldn't do so through character assassination. Betty Gow's private sexual life is as relevant here as her taste in toasted sandwiches. I prefer to avoid innuendo driven claims. They are usually made as a shortcut in lieu of factual evidence.
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Post by rmc1971 on May 20, 2008 6:30:20 GMT -5
It is circumstantial, but the thing that concerns me most about Betty and her potetial involvement is her finding the thumb guard in the driveway. It could just be bad luck that she was the one who happened to find it. But I would be surprised if the thumb guard was in the driveway since the night of the kidnapping, and somehow did not manage to get ran over, trampled, or found earlier.
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Post by Michael on May 21, 2008 5:49:51 GMT -5
The discovery of that thumb-guard seems to throw a wrench into many of the accepted facts regarding what happened. In attempts to explain its discovery I think it a viable option to apply the accusation that it was planted after the fact and pin it on Gow. However, there are so many other options which could equally explain it - but - none fit in with the Culprit(s) hightailing it to Featherbed Lane as their methods of escape AND without any inside help.
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