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Post by Michael on Feb 24, 2006 6:44:43 GMT -5
Lindbergh's Statement concerning events at St. Raymond's which turned up "missing" during the NJSP 1977 review of the evidence. This statement turned up again when a copy was discovered in the Hoffman Collection....Mis-spellings in the statement will be corrected by this boards "spell check" feature.
...Several people had passed by on the sidewalk when a man appeared walking along the sidewalk opposite to the direction i which the car was stationed. He walked with an unusual gait rather awkwardly and with a pronounced stoop. his hat was pulled down over his eyes. As he passed the car he covered his mouth and the lower part of his face with a handkerchief, and looked at Doctor Condon and at me. He continued along Tremont and passed out of sight. This man wore a brown suit and a brown felt hat. He was about 5'8" or 9" tall, weight about 150 to 160 lbs. I am unable to give a more detailed description with any degree of accuracy. I formed the impression, however, that this many was not over 30 years of age and that his complexion was dark. He wore no topcoat. he was averagely well dressed.
Further in this statement...
Doctor Condon walked across Tremont to the corner of Tremont and Whittemore opposite the cemetery. He did not take the money with him. He spoke to a man who was standing on the corner with a little girl, then walked across Whittemore to the corner of the cemetery. He stood there a few moments then started back when he had taken several steps and was half way across Whittemore, a voice from the cemetery called "Ay Doctor." I could hear the call distinctly and the Doctor was pronounced with a definite accent. Doctor Condon turned around, walked to the corner of the cemetery, then out of sight down Whittemore Avenue on the cemetery side. This was approximately 9 o'clock. A few minutes later he returned to the car and told me to take out of the box the $20,000. He said that "john" had agreed to take $50,000. instead of $70,000. I removed the package containing the $20,000. and gave Doctor Condon the box containing $50,000. He walked across Tremont and Whittemore to the corner of the cemetery then along the cemetery side of Tremont and passed out of sight. A few minutes later he came into view walking back along Tremont on the cemetery side and turned down Whittemore and again passed out of sight. Approximately 15 minutes after this the same man whom I have described appeared on the cemetery side of Tremont running in the direction of Whittemore. When he came to Whittemore he stopped running and when midway across Whittemore he hesitated, looked down Whittemore back along Tremont and then continued in a walk along Tremont passed the car on the opposite side of Tremont. As he passed the care he covered his face with a handkerchief and blew his nose so loudly that it could be distinctly heard across the street where I was parked and undoubtedly a considerably greater distance. At this time Doctor Condon reappeared walking up Whittemore. After blowing his nose the man who I described brought his left hand down quickly and instead of placing his handkerchief in his pocket threw it down beside the sidewalk. Doctor Condon returned to the car and told me that he had persuaded "John" to give him directions as to where the baby would be found. He said these directions were given him on his promise not to open them for two hours.
When the voice called from the cemetery the man with the little girl previously mentioned turned quickly, watched Doctor Condon pass down Whittemore and then walked rapidly out of sight along the cemetery side of Tremont Avenue.
I think every aspect of this statement should be carefully examined. I personally find some very important information contained in it.
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Post by kathy for michael on Feb 24, 2006 7:27:51 GMT -5
I know this is lazy and I could probably look it up but did CAL know the other $20,000 was marked? WHY when he was so careful about following the demands to the letter in some aspects did he allow that money to be removed? they still had the BABY! Didn't all those peoople milling about the cemetary know CAL could of shot them?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 24, 2006 7:55:23 GMT -5
There is a very good photo of the cemetery taken after the payoff which shows the locations in that testimony. Perhaps you or I could post it on this site. Pictures speak a thousand words. Also you can go to google local for a satellite view of the present site www.google.com/local?f=q&hl=en&q=3225+tremont+ave.+,nyc&t=h&ll=40.835178,-73.831934&spn=0.001847,0.003503&t=h
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When Condon talked to John
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Post by When Condon talked to John on Feb 24, 2006 12:53:40 GMT -5
Here is a cartoonhttp://www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/cemeterymap.jpg type diagram of Condon meeting CJ in Woodlawn from Ronelles Board. It will take some study to see if it is a match for Lindberghs statement above? www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/cemeterymap.jpg
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 24, 2006 13:02:20 GMT -5
Wrong meeting and cemetery
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Post by rick on Feb 24, 2006 15:08:22 GMT -5
At least I got Condon and Cemetary John right?
Maybe we can construct a similar map for meeting #2.
Oopps/
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Post by rick for michael on Feb 24, 2006 16:04:40 GMT -5
Michael--this is fascinating testimony by CAL!
1. It may have been a Freudian Slip on my part but the meeting cartoon with CJ at Woodlawn is in fact very similar. A person walks past the car in the opposite direction and then disappears out-of-site?
2. In both cases the seeminly extra guy walks past Condons car? Reich called him "John" at Woodlawn.
3. Is the person seen by Reich and CAL the lookout or CJ? Does this person go up the street and then cut back through the cemetary to meet Condon?
4. Does the signal on the way back, eg dropping the hankerchief, signal "money is paid/OK" to CAL?
5. Why is lookout or CJ signalling to CAL? Does CAL suspect Jafsie of a double cross? Both times? Cool/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 24, 2006 16:40:31 GMT -5
The photo of St Raymonds from the period shows the path taken by Jafsie. I am having trouble posting it for all to see. If, though you go to the Google satellite view you can get a good idea of the layout. The interesting thing about this to me is, where exactly would CJ/Hauptmann go to write or retrieve the final "boad Nelli" note? Would he have risked parking his car in or next to the cemetery? Could he have crossed Tremont without being seen by Lindbergh or Condon? There might have been some sort of structure on the South or West side of the cemetery that no longer exists, I can't tell. Obviously there must have been an "escape plan" in case the police showed.
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Post by rita on Feb 25, 2006 1:28:01 GMT -5
To Michael If CAL and Condon can be believed, they give a shell game story of St. Raymond"s, as Condon comes back to car from Whitmore with CJ story to accept $50,000.00, then takes the 50K back down Tremount, then back around to Whitemore. The suspicious man in Brown suit runs up Tremount passing by CAL with a hankercief signal, then Condon returns with a story of promising not to open the note of the childs location for two hours reminiscent of the nursery not two hour question mark. After the ransom is paid why should anyone care for giving a two hour break to open the note detailing his childs where abouts? I suppose no one actualy thought to question Condon seperatly against the Hero CAL?
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Post by rick on Feb 25, 2006 2:31:50 GMT -5
Rita is getting closer with her shell game suspicions! Who is the extra person? Both at Woodlawn and St. Raymonds the person is acting like a cop/agent than a conspirator by showing themselves so openly? If it were really a "lookout" then they too would be subject to arrest if Charlie had already been found. Are they protecting Condon? Are they protecting CAL? Are they protecting the money? They are making themselves vislble and known to somebody? But who? My only additional thought is that there is No Cemetary John? CAl never says he actually sees Cemetary John? Is it a figment of Jafsies imagination? Isnt his name John too? The two cemetery encounters are very similar with looping back.
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Post by steve for mike on Feb 25, 2006 7:30:07 GMT -5
i think what lindbergh saw was hauptmann/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 25, 2006 7:30:30 GMT -5
Have you seen a photo of that area at the time of the LKC? Unlike today, it was a very residential area so there would nothing too unusual about encountering people out for a walk. Another thing, St Raymonds and the area did not have some of the visual obstructions at that time that exist today. In fact it was an excellent choice on Hauptmann's part. One person could look out from the diagionally orientated gate with a clear view of Tremont and the florist. There really would be no need for any additional "lookouts".
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2006 9:17:53 GMT -5
Kathy, Yes CAL knew all the bills had their serial numbers recorded. He was the one refusing to allow this until Frank Wilson threatened to withdrawal from the case. As I'm sure you know this $20,000 that was removed were the $50's and the Authorities knew these larger bills would be easily spotted so when they were removed - although always under suspicion - the Police thought Condon was definitely in on this thing either having tipped off those involved or simply making it up so Lindbergh would remove them. Steve, If you study the statement closely this "look-out" is seen while Condon is with "John." People can't be in two places at the same time. Additionally, this lookout doesn't fit Hauptmann - he was heavier, had a dark complexion, and walked with an unusual gait. Rick, I don't think it unreasonable to assume its the same lookout as the one at Woodlawn. It appears from CAL's statement that he believed it was a signal. Kevin, Once Condon supposedly demanded a "receipt" we have two versions.... 1. One is that he walked off "somewhere" and came back with it. We are to believe he wrote it then. 2. Another is that John had walked back into the Cemetery and consulted with (2) Confederates and possibly they wrote it. Both are bogus as far as the note goes if you ask me. It looks as though it had already been written. Did CJ know what Condon was going to ask him? Did Condon make it up? Now pay careful attention to: 1. Your map and ask yourself where and why Condon keeps walking out of sight in relationship to where the payoff was supposed to occur. 2. What Lindbergh "heard." 3. All the money being in the box. Now you are right that this area wasn't like it is today, however, ask yourself this: If they couldn't see the Kidnappers then they were probably keeping an eye out for those doing the same on the other side. Lindbergh saw other people: Several people had passed on the sidewalk when a man appeared walking along the sidewalk opposite to the direction in which the car was situated. So Lindy sees several people who aren't acting like this lookout but normally. Here are some excerpts from his Grand Jury testimony to highlight and compliment his statement (9-26-34): Shortly after we first stopped the car out opposite the florist shop, a man walked by who I feel sure was one of the actual group of kidnapers or connected with them. And It undoubtedly was it was a very distinct foreign accent, the voice simply called to Dr. Condon, saying, "hey doc" but there was every distinct accent. And Just before Dr. Condon returned from having met the man and made the payment this same man came running back on the other side of the street on the cemetery side, he stopped or paused then as he crossed Whittemore Street looking first backward at the car and then around and then in all directions. He then began walking rapidly so he passed the car again this time on the other side of the street going in the other direction covering his face with the handkerchief and he blew his nose very loudly after he had passed far enough.... ***I don't know... If you conclude this wasn't a Confederate then in my opinion you have only two other choices: 1. He was an independent criminal thinking about robbing CAL without knowing the situation or what was going on. 2. CAL was making this up.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 25, 2006 9:37:00 GMT -5
Michael, who the hell knows when it comes to Condon? This guy is undoubtedly the king of obfuscation. Does he ever actually repeat any story twice in the same way? As for the "lookouts", I don't dismiss that possibility although it seems unnecessary here. Also , put yourself in that car under those circumstances. I think it would be quite normal to view anyone with heightened suspicion. I don't know what to think about Hauptmann's/CJ's disappearance to retrieve the note. I do believe that there must have been someplace in that immediate vicinity to retreat to.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 25, 2006 10:42:04 GMT -5
The presence of the perceived lookout at both cemeteries and the independent account given, remains, in my opinion, the strongest direct evidence of others involvement. Michael, the account you've provided is the most detailed one I've seen, great work!
I think it's possible that the lookout itself was probably unnecessary and you have to wonder a bit how any reconnaissance between CJ and lookout actually took place, other than perhaps the loud nose blowing.
As well, perhaps the lookout's presence was in part, to portray the impression of efficiency, organization and strength in numbers during such a critical stage in the ransom exchange.
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Post by kanneedwards on Feb 25, 2006 10:56:43 GMT -5
I think the look-outs were there to ascertain whether cops came along. Those were pretty miserable nights to be out for a walk not to mention late. why did cal come along the second trip unless he didn't trust condon? did he think they would turn over the baby then?
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2006 11:26:20 GMT -5
One thing also I wanted to throw out there.....
Rab's March 7th research (which I hope to post in our historical section of this board someday) seemed to indicate that someone other then Hauptmann probably mailed that ransom note. Now one of Rab's suggestions was that maybe Hauptmann paid someone else to mail it for him..... in other words.... an indirect participant.
I realize this ransom payoff and look-out situation seems a bit more complex, so I don't think this is the case here, but I wanted to throw out this variable.
For example, the man with the little girl could also have been involved. He could have been approached with a $5 and told to stand there until something in particular happened and then walk away when it did. I think when we consider Perrone's help being enlisted to drop off the note to Condon's house then we must factor in this possiblity to all situations for consideration.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 25, 2006 12:32:36 GMT -5
Mmm... I haven't yet seen any clear evidence to date that it wasn't Hauptmann who mailed the March 7 note. I followed (as best I could) what turned into a real marathon between Rab and Allen on this point at LindyKidnap a few years ago. What I can't reconcile is whether Hauptmann worked the full day for Hirsch or just had some piece work to do. Do we know where the work took him, or could he have even done it in his own garage? I look forward to the post.
I tend to think the man with the little girl could have simply been enroute somewhere and just happened to become innocently "involved." The question being would the kidnappers have risked exposing themselves unnecessarily to two other people, who may be able to come forward later and identify them? I can imagine many people would have taken off after hearing a firm voice suddenly coming out of a cemetery in the dark. Did the man ever come forward to explain his own movements?
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Post by rick on Feb 25, 2006 12:41:59 GMT -5
This ransom drop off is somewhat complicated--yet similar in plan to Woodlawn. Reich on the one hand says "he sees CJ"? Is that because Cj is headed out past him and then doubles back inside the cemetery to meet Condon? Thats assuming it is a one man job. At St. Raymonds, who do we know that is 5'9" tall, 150-160, less 30years olde? Only BRH? Its not Fisch, its not Wendel and its not Schleser, Gorch, Reich or Digrassi. Why is anyone signalling to anyone....as if to say "the coast is clear:"? Are they checking out for cops for the CAL/JFC team? Dont CAL/JFC ever compare notes? Or is that too normal? If there is only one person picking up the money then they have the money when they pass the car the second time and are just tipping thier hat.
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2006 12:53:16 GMT -5
I am looking forward to all of his research being posted in one spot for future reference. He's done a ton, and often its been muddied by Allen with arguments which seem to have originated from his overactive imagination rather from the facts located in the source documentation. That's why it needs to be here so that we can debate it in good faith.
You could be correct in your observation concerning the man and the child. There's certainly not enough to say for sure so consider it just as an example. I have never seen anything in the source material where this man was identified....
We could also say the Needle Salesman and Scissors Grinder are suspicious as well. And of course if one chooses to believe Condon then we have the Lady at Tuckahoe to consider as well.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 25, 2006 15:48:03 GMT -5
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Post by rick on Feb 26, 2006 16:18:01 GMT -5
Kevin...good photos Somewhere in my readings I found that either Reich or Condon identified the "lookout' at Woodlawn as "Italian"? In another reference, maybe Gardner, the same lookout at Woodlawn was thought by one of the two to be "Fisch"? Does Fisch look Italian to anyone? Some of Fisch's buddys are in fact Italian as is Joe Digrasi or Peter Biratella--but BRH is more on the Scandanavian side? Condon does not help us out much here. If in either meeting the so called lookout circles around through the tombstones to play Cemetary John then Condon should reveal thier similarities. Condons Ids are all over the place but include "hacking cough" and "lumpy thumb"?
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2006 20:37:25 GMT -5
I think if you look at Kevin's photo you'll see why it was strange that Condon, on both occasions, walked past where he was supposed to hand over the ransom and out of sight.
I do not think the money was exchanged at that place but was probably given away during that time he "disappeared."
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Post by rita on Feb 26, 2006 21:27:42 GMT -5
I'm surprised CAL acknowledged the man in the brown suit signaled, as that has them acting in concert with with each other, for the benefit of whoever they feel might be watching them.
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Post by gary on Mar 4, 2006 11:05:46 GMT -5
How Many involved is a good question. Hauptmann being found found with nearly one third of the money can shorten the list. This is only if you believe the extortion was made by the same group that committed the crime. The lookouts, J.J. Faulkner deposit, Condon's version of three men in the background at St Raymond's cemetary can make you think atleast three. Then if you add an inside source and someone to take care of the baby once he is kidnapped you can ssume many. All for $50,000 and possibly $20,000 more that one (CJ) could say thats allright fifty ok). I believe if we look at this possibly the extortion circle of accomplises could be different than the kidnapping group with perhaps one or two bridging the gap betweeen the two.
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Post by kanneedwards on Mar 4, 2006 11:09:26 GMT -5
GAry, maybe only one and i don't think it was Hauptman
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Post by rita on Mar 4, 2006 23:20:10 GMT -5
Someone argued the point that 50k back then would equate to 500-600k today, which does seem like a lot of zeros, but think about todays costs? If you operated alone you might be able to buy a house and a car, but then that might only leave a 200-300k balance, and the upkeep and taxes would necessitate investing that sum just to keep one step ahead of bankruptcy. I think 50k would have been too cheap back then especialy when you consider possible jail time and lawyer fees. Back then 50k would not have paid for an accomplice plus the cost of hideing t he victem. Realizing 50k was an un-relistic figure, and considering the un-believable kidnap, it seems the 50k was an ill thought figure that someone hastily put into a ransom note before the police arrived.
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Post by Michael on Mar 5, 2006 22:34:40 GMT -5
There were several interviews with this Special Officer the first being on 4-14-32. I am going to give you the "nut-shell" version of all of them.
That on "payday" which was either March 31st or April 1st, 1932 whichever did not fall on Sunday because he was never paid on Sunday - Uebel saw a Maroon Car. Condon had been in the car and got out and walked over to a green touring car which had just pulled up there.
Just the day before Uebel had seen this green touring car parked there waiting for about 2 to 3 hours for someone. A couple of the men had gotten out and walked around as if looking for something.
Condon walked over to the car and when he left - the car started and drove away. Condon and his companion then walked around St. Raymond's in the area very near where the money had been passed. Once back at the car, Condon's companion got in but Condon walked back to the green touring car which had returned. Condon reached into his pocket and took out a white envelop and handed it to someone in the car.
Uebel claims that on Monday, April 11th, in one version it was the "Maroon" car but another says it was the green "touring" car - pulled up on Wittemore Ave. He observed a dark complexion man walk to a box-wood bush in the rear of 3254 E. Tremont Ave. which is about 75 feet west of Whittemore Ave., reach into the bush, take out a box and place it under his coat get back into the car and drove away.
On April 18th Uebel wrote down the license plate of a maroon car he saw at the cemetery and believing it was the same car of the previous mentioned storie(s) wrote down the license plate. This plate was traced back to Gregory Coleman - Asst. Editor of the Bronx Home News.
No one questions Uebel's integrity. He certainly wasn't looking for publicity. I have communicated with his Grand-Daughter and she and her family had absolutely no idea he had any connection to this case.
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Post by rick on Mar 7, 2006 15:30:20 GMT -5
Michael....I discovered that Bernard F. Uebel was discontinued as a Special Police Officer at St. Raymonds on 20 March 1935 (NYT)--his only claim to fame?
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Post by Michael on Mar 7, 2006 18:38:31 GMT -5
I didn't know this Rick. Does it say why? He gave interviews at St. Raymond's in '36. I think maybe he changed jobs there from Special Officer to Blacksmith because in one interview he states this is his current position.
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