Ransom Note's Vesica Pisces

[Tah]

Tom Wescott in 2004 made the identification of the Lindbergh ransom note signature as a Vesica Pisces or Piscis which translates as fish bladder. He recognized it from his Jack the Ripper research and the evidence for occultist Roslyn Donston Stephenson as the murderer.
I came to the Lindbergh case from the same avenue via the Lindbergh kidnapping hoax site and have some thoughts of my own to share on this important discovery which links Isadore Fische to the crime and connects the infamous crime of one century to the equally infamous unsolved crimes of the previous. The Lindbergh mystery has shades of the Whitechapel crimes of 1888. As it happens, the Ripper case had a secret child spirited away for mysterious reasons. The child of Mary Jane Kelly and an unknown gentleman friend. This child has been considered a hoax but evidence suggests otherwise. ("Roslyn Hoax" museumofhoaxes.com)
Is the double circle coincidence worthy of some investigation?

[Michael]

I am familiar with Tom Wescott's research - here is a copy of it linked up on Ronelle's site:

www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/ripper%20notes.pdf

I have seen this "fish bladder" translation mentioned in a couple of letters written to Governor Hoffman - one that comes to mind dated 1938. It depends on what you think the symbol is, and since someone named "Fisch" was connected to the case (either directly or indirectly) then I do believe it should cause any LKC Researcher to take notice.

Additionally, anyone interested in this case would naturally be curious about Jack the Ripper.

"The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing."

By all means Tah, please give us your thoughts on the case.....

[Tah]

Tom Wescott suggested that Isadore Fische might not be likely to use the double circle symbol because he was Jewish and the fish is Christian but he was Austrian and anyways the Vesica Pisces, or specifically "fish bladder", which it looks like, is more accurately described as a Grail symbol--and one of the best proponents of the Grail idea is Henry Lincoln, real name Soskin, whom I believe is Jewish. (His partner Richard Leigh was Austrian.)
So whereas I agree, Fische wouldn't have gone for the Christian fish, that doesn't mean he wouldn't go for the generic fish bladder. I think we can make a distinction and ask, How many male Caucasians would use a signature like that?

Roslyn Donston Stephenson did claim to have studied in Austria but it's doubtful and I don't believe the Ripper crimes formed a fish bladder but I think the idea is in the right direction. Donston did change his name to Roslyn and I do believe in the secret child of prostitute Mary Kelly. Her identity was covered-up for 120 years due to the special son.

[kevkon]

I think that one would first have to prove that we have an intentional vesica pisces in the ransom symbol. That might not be so easy to do.
When you look at all of the symbols and holes, does the construction of a vesica pisces seem to be a primary intent of the maker?

[TAH]

Maybe I'm too Freudian but I don't think there had to be a conscious effort on the kidnapper's part to make a Davinci Codish template. I don't believe Jack the Ripper plotted a double circle of Xs on a map to determine his crime scenes. Fische didn't have to plan a Vesica Pisces signature.
Ripperologists like Ivor Edwards feel compelled to make a case of intentional occult ritual planning to impress people in the field who demand hard, mathematical or scientific evidence. I won't go that far out on a limb but I do suggest a subconscious clue and it doesn't have to point to a Jewish person but Jews would be persons of interest.

David Berkowitz used the double circles, inside a cross even, and he's Jewish. The cross when put on it's side like the X in the Chi-Rho conveys the same concepts as the Vesica Pisces without using circles.
Jack the Ripper, according to reports, left two rings and two farthings at the foot of victim number 2. The doctor on the scene who arrived 40 minutes later testified there were no rings or coins but anyone could have taken them. To me this is a major clue pointing to someone Jewish or narrowing it down if it was a Gentile.

[kevkon]

OK, Tah.
But would not a Freudian construction be relative to the specific order in which the symbol was constructed?
In that respect, how do you see the genesis of the LKC "singnature"?

[TAH]

If I had to guess, I'd say the LKC signature is a stamp with holes in it. I think it was most likely a stamp or template made of wood.
The carpenter cannot be eliminated with all due respect to the Lindbergh kidnap hoax folks. I'd have to check which part of Germany he was from first.

Jack Ruby shot Oswald who was Franco-Germanic with Communist sympathies. (I don't doubt a little one-upmanship but that can happen between certain Old World Germans and Germanic Americans too.) Jack Ruby's club was the Carousel.

[kevkon]

So you view the "singnature" as an organic creation from conception to execution?
And if it's not?

[TAH]

There is a good signature thread; I'll read it and see if I have anything to add.
Right now, I just think Fische is more likely than Hauptman to have conceived the signature. Hauptman was from Leipzig and, although I can think of one famous theosophist from that city, I don't think a Gentile from Eastern Saxony is more likely than a German Jew to come up with the overlapping circle sign, unless Hauptman picked it up during the first World War.

[Michael]

To play "devil's advocate" here.....

Who's to say Hauptmann didn't his idea for this symbol while in the U.S.? He was in this country long enough prior to the Ransom Note construction to have adopted an idea or two he picked up after jumping ship (I would think). In fact, if one were to believe he used the J.J. Faulkner alias then he would have had to glean this from someone familiar with that family while he was still in Germany. Or in the alternative, someone else used it in the commission of their role in this crime.

[kevkon]

So everyone is convinced that the "singnature" was "conceived" in it's entirety?

[TAH]

Michael, I wouldn't think Bruno Hauptmann could have picked up the symbol in the US unless he went "to California" or joined the Freemasons.
(Just a correction, Bruno Hauptmann was born in Kamenz which is near Dresden but it's still Saxony.)
The symbol is definitely Kabbhalistic, representative of the Tree of Life which has points outside and inside of the circles. I wonder if it can be overlayed with the signature and be made to line up.

[Michael]

Kevin - my answer is "I don't know" at this point. I believe its possible but I don't have any rock solid conclusions yet.

TAH - I know there were many theosophists, and/or theosophical organizations prior to Hauptmann's arrival or and after - all over NYC. Hauptmann did take a very long trip across the U.S. in '31, and there is a lot about his life that we still don't know about. If one accepts Koehler's investigations, for example, then there's a whole 'nother place Hauptmann went to construct and hide the ladder. Lindbergh was a mason, as was Schwarzkopf. There's nothing that I have found which indicates Hauptmann was but are we sure he didn't have any association with someone who was? This is my point I suppose, that he got the idea of it from somewhere (or someone) else. That is if he was even the person who made it.... Whoever came up with the idea may not have been the one to place it there or write the letters.

If we believe Jafsie then John told him the last note couldn't include the symbol because one of the "gang" took it away. Ergo, if this is true, then I would say its possible that person was the one creating the symbol on those notes and not the Writer. But of course there are scenarios where that might not be the case either - even if John (or Jafsie) were indeed telling the truth.

One thing for sure about Hautpmann - he knew how to keep a secret.

[WWII]

"The Crowley/OTO organizational power trip is contrasted to ill effects with their libertaarian propaganda. The Great Beast himself state that. {***}
" The OTO might-is-right doctirine comes to the fore in the analysis of Crowleys extremely slippery relationship with Nazism. In 1915 Crowley wrote: "the world-head of the OTO is German; and it is up to the OTO to rebuild the civilizations of Europe. It can only be done the German way. The day of the flanneled fool is over>" Although Crowley was an agent of British Intellegence, he savored Hitlers hypnotic charisma and viewed him as marshallling part of the forces that were smashing the old repressive Christian Order--"the Aeon of Osiris".
"The OTO was evetually suppressesd in Nazi Germany, cheifely because the OTO leader Karl Germers connections to Aleister Crowley, who was viewed as a rival. The Germans of the Hitler era had thier own Teutonic occult orders anyways, including the Ordo Novi Templi, or Order of the New Templars, which assisted in the rise of the NSDAP. The Germanic Order, an ONTSociety and may have been the prototype for the Thule Society a pagan occult organization which also lent credence to the NSDAP>
"In the post WWI wreckage that was Germany, it was almost inevitible that occult-pagan revivalism whould grow, and that such elements would attach themselves to any prominent movement, including Natiional Socialism, yet it is also true that one could not be a member of the Nazi party and a Freemason, since Hitler feared the Judaic predominance in the lodges" [Blood on the Altar pp 45-46]

[TAH]

The Kabbhalistic tree of life is attached. See the similarity?
This symbol is a real geometric feature of Canada's great unsolved, Oak Island.
There seems to be a connection with almost all of the West's great mysteries. The Harry Oakes murder case involves Nazis too.
These mysteries are perpetuated even after resolution, just look at the Jack the Ripper case with the secret son revealed connected to the Rothschilds through his freemason father Arthur Sullivan and through his wife who came from a family of Rothschild servants. Perhaps this is a good forum for discussing this conspiracy.

Jan 15, 2009 7:44:04 GMT -5 @WWII said:

The OTO was evetually suppressed in Nazi Germany

Nazi's also suppressed Karl Willigut and killed Eric Hanussen, betraying the beliefs that empowered them. Loyalty to an ideology doesn't really exist once in power.
Disloyalty like this, and perhaps embarassment, is why most true master criminals if they work alone will abandon occult ritual. Ramirez never joined a Satanic cult. He didn't need to. The Nazis still kept the swastika but that was just a party symbol.
Any mystical symbol like the double circle used in most any major crime would indicate a group and all indications I see point to Son of Sam and Zodiac being more than one person. The same for the LKC.
So I can't say for sure from the signature who made the signature but I can bet by the symbol more than one person was likely involved in the commission of the crime. Reinforcing what is already known?

[TAH]

Khabbalistic Tree of Life.

[TAH]

halexandria.org/dward097.htm

[kevkon]

What I find most interesting about all of this is that everyone seems to gravitate toward a mystical/ philosophical explanation for the ransom symbol. Yet not a word on the symbol's more practical and mathematical significance. I know, it's not as exciting and exotic. Then again, look who created it.
BTW, regarding the zodiac killer, have you ever seen a USN Signal Corps manual? Not very exciting either, but perhaps insightful.

[Michael]

For me, I am open to anything. First of all, I don't know who created it. I know that we have a suspect but that's as far as I am willing to go. Next, I'd say that even if it is proven someone created it then I'd say we don't know who placed in on the notes.

I know what Siglinde recently showed us is very interesting, yet, David Sims once said in his opinion it meant absolutely nothing and was a "random" creation. This seems to be supported by a Police Report I found which had the Cops interested in what they believed was the symbol being created accidentally by a cup being placed on a bill twice - with its wet based leaving behind what they felt was the symbol.

[kevkon]

We often tend to let our egos get he better of us, it's human nature.
I think that is what leads to a bias toward over-complication. Sometimes you have to reign in that ego and look at the simple explanation.
And yes, that most definitely includes an accidental construction of the symbol. Hauptmann may just have been trying to make something out of a mistake. That's often what happens in life.

[rick3]

I'm certain you all wont mind if I play Devil's Advocate and respectfully disagree 100%? Take a careful look at the symbol on the cover of Marks new book....its blown up and in color from the "original". Now explain and account for the following:

• two BLUE ink circles forming the VP?
  
• one big RED ink dot smack in the center of the VP?
  
• two BLACK ink "snakes" at the center of the two VP circles?
  
• three HOLES punched--one smack dab in the center of the RED dot? (and 2 outside the VP)
  
• Now, how could we calculate mathematically the chance or probablity of all this coming out merely by RANDOM setting down of a coffee cup? on 10 of the 14 notes no less?
  
• Using exponents or stats? like for instance the method that Arthur Koehler came up with to get to a 1:10,000,000,000,000 chance for the 4 nail holes pattern in S-226? [Who Made that Ladder? 1935]
  
• Or, using the Infinite Monkey Theorem: The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespear!
  
• If I recall correctly, AG Wilintz's mystical note said the symbol was "copied"? but from what?
  

[kevkon]

OK, I'm game.
What note is Mark using on his cover?
Look at the Nursery Note.
Why is it so ill formed?
Why do the circles not conform to the holes?
Why if the Vesica Pisces is so damn important is it barely distinguishable in this all important first note? If that is the geometric form you are after, wouldn't you make sure you formed it? Then why obliterate it with the red sphere?
In short, the evidence clearly shows an improvement in the symbol from the very first note. Based on that alone, I would say that there is a good chance that the symbol was not conceived or adapted as a mystical identifier or code, but rather was an improvised device added as a flourish or to hide a mistake.
That first note is just too important to ignore.

[TAH]

Jan 16, 2009 12:55:04 GMT -5 rick3 said:

[/li][li] two BLACK ink "snakes" at the center of the two VP circles? [/quote]
Serpents that represent chaos. Two for duality?
Isadore means gift of Isis. Isis became a great fish when she swallowed the penis of Osiris (www.filomuse.com).
The fish or mandorla (almond) part represents the bridge or the doorway. Fisch is a door?

[rick3]

Jan 16, 2009 16:55:19 GMT -5 @TAH said:

Jan 16, 2009 12:55:04 GMT -5 rick3 said:

[/li][li] two BLACK ink "snakes" at the center of the two VP circles? [/quote]
Serpents that represent chaos. Two for duality?
Isadore means gift of Isis. Isis became a great fish when she swallowed the penis of Osiris (www.filomuse.com).
[/quote]

Good call! Maybe they are spermatazoa? Good swimmers for the Divine Union of Opposites? Weve got a lil Horus to hatch.

www.philomuse.com/kingfisher/central/vpintro.htm

[TAH]

I just read about Mary Cerrita and the Temple of Divine Power and the table brace confession pointing to someone interested in Hamburg (Lower Saxony). This is getting more and more interesting.

However, at this point in my research, I'm beginning to suspect the squiggles are pie crust slits!

[WWII]

Im leaning towards the dual serpents of the Caduceus?

[Michael]

You guys are starting to lose me.....

Is it meant to divert attention to someone else or from someone else? Is it meant to make a statement? How does the murder and collection of a meager $50,000 crime further the cause?

What is the motive? Why would someone spend more time creating a symbol that no one is supposed to see? And that no one will (or ever) understand its true meaning?

Take Kevin's example of the Zodiac... This guy is giving clues on purpose. He is looking for attention and identity which continues after the crime which leads into another one. Here we have a goal in which the symbol is a means to an end. Once the delivery is made the communication is over.

[kevkon]

You guys are starting to lose me..... Michael

I suspect that's the point of these circular exchanges!

Before one gets to wrapped up in the whole complex vesica pisces agenda, you have to take a good look at allof the notes and especially the first. Where does one see a primary objective of rendering the vesica pisces ? Had that been the primary geometric form meant to convey, would it not have been consistently well formed? Why is it not?
You can't take the ransom symbol/signature piecemeal if you believe it is integral form. And you can't overlook the obvious inconsistency in it's rendering. These are tangibles which must be taken into account. The same goes for the methodology employed in the construction, ie the sequence of making the holes and geometric forms.

[TAH]

You may be right about paying special attention to the first ransom note, Kevkon and I think the prosecutors were on the right track with the Blue, Red, Holes idea. Was the signature originally meant to add initials disguised by elongation? How about CS?
What we do know is that the symbol is suggestive of someone who might be predisposed to support the Nazis if he's a gentile, and the table brace confession bears this out. It was a little axis of crime. Sign of the times.
The idea that nobody would take such risks without it being an inside job are just wrong when it comes to people who like it the riskier the better....And therefore the more spectacular the crime the better....Group dynamics makes people even bolder....

[rick3]

I distinctly remember someone, likely Ellis Parker, that opined that the Nursery note was written by someone other that the last 13 series? You can tell that easily yourself from Page 161 of Scadutos Scapegoat (1976--this should not be news?)

• Check out the Dear Sir between Nursery note and notes 2-3; not even close? So why disquise your own handwriting--it does not match? Two syles--two writers.
  
• Maybe the first note was composed and written by the mysterious insider--over the phone? Or they didnt understand the instructions as to what they were makeing--an ancient and well-known occult symbol?
  
• The great team of handwriting experts, you know the Howard Hughes twins, said they never compared the handwriting between notes? Good out on that score--always CYA?
  
• The only word ever "snatched" from the Nursery Note was one measly "IS"? All the other words didnt match?
  
• Knowing the paper matches does not cure the insider--of course the insider has both sides of the paper. Thats just a red herring.
  
• Two writers--one piece of paper. One-half piece jumps onto the window sill>>>>exit here! Go find ladder & chisel!