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Post by rick3 on Aug 12, 2008 2:33:40 GMT -5
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 12, 2008 10:06:28 GMT -5
Hi Rick, Have you seen the book by Susan Hertog on AML? Need to know.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 12, 2008 15:52:23 GMT -5
Wrong table bases, Rick. But I would heartily encourage you to purchase one so that you may attempt to duplicate the ransom note holes. That should put the Mersman issue to rest for once and for all. And while you may not have a viable template, you will have a nice piece of American Revival furniture to enjoy for years to come!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 12, 2008 20:42:15 GMT -5
Not to mention a wonderful conversation piece for an afternoon get together at a makeshift outdoor cafe in the woods of Mt. Rose. You're right though Kevin, the table brace is as practical for the role of a punch template as one would find using the table itself as a hammer.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 13, 2008 1:35:09 GMT -5
Apparently, noone is going to get rich collecting faux Mersman Duncan Phyfe knockoffs? But thats only because there were so many of them in the 20s and 30s. One article claims that one out of 10 households during the Depression contained at least one Mersman table--of one sort or another. Just the sheer number of them makes them a good candidate for the template--giving them means, motive and opportunity. (2 of 3 aint bad) But clearly the Mystery of the Mersman lives on despite limp-wristed attempts to dismiss it in its entirely as a hoax: - Bollard/Bolliard and the salesman said it was a Mersman--between the two of them they should know. these photos are
pretty close matches to me.
- Its hard to envision how some person could "reverse engineer" the hole pattern that matches perfectly? or Why?
Especially 16 years after the fact?
- We have no shortage of German immigrants with possible association to the NSDAP--including BRH?
- We even have some former upscale residents of Hamburg living in Englewood and working for the Morrows--Margarite and Johannson Junge.
- Werent the Junges riding around with Red Johnson on the nite of March 1st--or did they later recant this alibi? Actually none of Reds 3 alibis held any water--so why should this one be any different?
- didnt Violet Sharpe see Margarite return to Next Day @ 11:15?
Wonder where SHE was all evening? A fateful observation/
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 13, 2008 6:53:07 GMT -5
Don't you think that's a lot of limp-wristed "what if" connections you're throwing at the wall to keep the Mystery of the Mersman alive, Rick? Before you queue the theramin music and angel choir background to surround your contentions, consider the following:
* We know the table was a Mersman * There is a very simple explanation for the precise hole spacing via the detail in Haring's book, which includes an inch scale for measurement and it was published not far from Bolliard's home * There were also no shortage of German immigrants who staunchly supported Hauptmann and could have conceived this. * Kloppenburg also came from Hamburg. Does this automatically throw him and anyone else from there into the pool of suspects? * What does the ride taken by Red Johnson and the Junges on the evening of March 1 have to do with this? Was Red Johnson not grilled to perfection and did he not come up clean as a whistle? * Violet Sharpe whereabouts were confirmed by at least three independent witnesses.
You're well beyond the point of just throwing anything handy at the wall here. Turn the music off.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 13, 2008 6:56:48 GMT -5
C'mon Rick, buy one of those tables and show us all how the holes were made! You keep bringing up the Mersman issue, so it must be something you really believe. Right? Enough talk, just do it! Make an indelible mark on the LKC by proving that the table was used to make the notes. Can you imagine such an achievement? Actually making progress and getting somewhere! You'll be a hero! You'll be exalted! I can't wait.
PS I can get you the proper table, no problem. If you prefer I can send only the support (brace) I'll even pay for the shipping out to you. I just need an address. Let's get going!
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Post by rick3 on Aug 13, 2008 9:35:05 GMT -5
Boy oh boy--you two are really killing me--like throwing Braer Rabbit into the Briar Patch "Oh no, dont throw me into the Briar Patch"? te-hee
Whats all the ruckus about/ dont make a Federal kaze outta it?
I really like the Theory that someone paid a worker at the Mersman factory in Celina, Ohio to drill prearranged holes in "just one table" to fit the holes in the Harring Book? yowza--thats even better than the existing theory! If I would have gone to all that trouble why not add the Secret Symbol as well?
Whats the 1948 motive herabouts for this? BRH died on Easter 1936?
"Doth thee protest too much"?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 13, 2008 11:45:45 GMT -5
If this Mersman table in question was actually manufactured, as well seems to be the case, circa 1940, that would involve one hell of a time warp for it to have been instrumental in the creation of the ransom note holes of 1932. And at a time when the "Bruno Richard Hauptmann" of what is undoubtedly the most limp-wristed of all transvestical of sea shanties, (?) was known simply as "Richard Hauptmann." Cut the losses while you can, Rick. This one's a wienie schnitzel.
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Post by Michael on Aug 13, 2008 16:03:23 GMT -5
I have to agree with Rick. I believe the brace was the template Dr. Souder suggested was used back in 1932 after examining the original note(s). I suppose an argument could be made for a hoax, somehow, but while it doesn't stretch beyond the realm of possibility - it does come close when considering all of the facts. To say a "hoaxster" bought one of the few books Haring actually sold, blew up the photo to scale, and then found a stock piece of furniture which exactly matched the holes seems an incredible feat - especially when all of the Cops and other Law Enforcement Officials (who had the real notes) could not. Now I suppose it could have been used for the spacing only and then something else used afterwards to actually punch the holes....but I am personally in favor of the actual brace as the tool for the holes themselves. I think it important when considering this topic that Mark never discounts it either. He doesn't say it is but he doesn't say it isn't. The newest interview mentions the table again: lindberghkidnap.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=mark&action=display&thread=398
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 13, 2008 16:55:53 GMT -5
I think there comes a time when putting an issue to rest is advantageous. That is, if it can be demonstrably proved one way or another. Luckily the Mersman template issue can be. It's just not possible to make the identical holes found in the notes with the table plinth from a Mersman table. Can't be done. I tried. I encourage anyone who is interested to try as well. The results are obvious and definitive. That's why I encouraged Rick to get a table. They are relatively cheap and easy to find. Or, simply make a replica. Give it a shot and then put this one to bed!
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Post by Michael on Aug 13, 2008 18:11:54 GMT -5
But is the question "how" it was used? For me that is a second tier level question.
I am convinced it was used in some way to create those holes. They are just too perfectly matched with the notes. There were instruments used to perferate the paper but I don't think we will ever be able to exactly identify them - but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or that something else was used. We may never be able to create the holes using them ourselves.
See what I am saying?
So for me, its not that I can't create the same holes with this piece myself, its that I could never find something which would match these holes exactly in all the years I have been actively researching the case. I've tried and I have never been able to do it.
I believe I am in good company since I know all the Police and other Law Enforcement had tried as well from 1932 to 1938 and never did - until this piece was discovered by Bollard.
When looking into those holes it doesn't appear that something sharp jabbed into the sides. To me that means whatever made the holes didn't need to go deep, or only the measurement of these holes were used. But I am still convinced this was the template otherwise I feel the Cops, the Governor's Men, or one of us would have found something similiar nevermind exact.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 13, 2008 19:14:19 GMT -5
The problem is that the holes don't align exactly. That's because the holes in the table plinth are larger. So while they appear to line up, in terms of an exact template the table piece doesn't work. Then there is the issue of how the holes are formed. This is where the Mersman just falls flat. Once again, I highly recommend trying to duplicate the holes. Once you have tried you will understand why the table is inappropriate. It's really not surprising that no one ever found the actual template. It would probably be a small scrap of wood with three small indentations from nails.
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Post by Michael on Aug 14, 2008 5:58:41 GMT -5
From my observations - the holes line up dead center of the holes in that table. The holes in the table are slightly bigger, and I understand the point about the plinth - but for me that should be addressed concerning exactly how the table was used and/or how the holes were formed.
The holes on the notes themselves are perplexing. They were made "cleanly" and showed no evidence of "hanging chads." So it appears a common hole punch may have been used UNTIL the shapes of the holes are examined which reveals at least one item wasn't round at all.
So I suppose my question is if you aren't surprised no one found the template then shouldn't you be even more surprised a Hoaxer did find something equaling the spacing? Why couldn't the Authorities, or anyone else for that matter - have done the same?
If the table can one day be dated I think that should end the discussion... Or am I incorrect? If the table were dated at say.... 1931 .... would you change your mind at all?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 14, 2008 6:53:08 GMT -5
Absolutely not, Michael. In fact I already believe the Mersman in question is from the early to late 30's. It's simply a matter of process and what is required to make the holes in the ransom notes. Btw, the holes on my leather work belt also align perfectly with the ransom holes. I just mention that to show that there are probably many things that have a spacing equal to the note holes.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 14, 2008 13:52:31 GMT -5
There's no need to blow up the photo to scale if you have the ransom note holes and the scale within the same frame as is seen in Haring's book. The added width of the actual plinth holes would easily overcome any accuracy losses in the transfer of measurement from book to plinth.
That the cops never found something to duplicate the actual ransom note hole spacing doesn't surprise me. With the table brace, it's simply not possible to align your paper with the accuracy shown in the series of ransom notes.
As I've mentioned many times previously, I've done it, both the accuracy from page to page and the cleanly punched holes showing the same degree of shape variability. A simple and very disposable piece of cardboard with three holes and aligned in the bottom right hand corner of the paper is all it takes. The inverted head of a common finishing nail can easily do the rest. Weren't some of these found in Hauptmann's cigar box?
I think though what's most important in this entire Mersman affair is determining the actual date of the table's manufacture. Without that, it dearly lacks any proof of authenticity. The best information to date says that took place well after the kidnapping per the time of Bolliard's purchase. Do you have anything better?
I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear someday that this was the handiwork of a German worker at the Mersman factory who had the book, made the conversion, did his routine hand-made holes pattern (only this time "to order") and then penned the script for added effect. I'd also be willing to bet the police who investigated this in 1948 did realize the hole spacing was similar and kept a lid on that observation, deeming this necessary to prevent a media frenzy and public outcry.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 14, 2008 17:06:37 GMT -5
I'd say it's more likely a hoax closer to home, Bollard's home. I grew up in that area and I know it well. The location of the publisher of Haring's book, the furniture store where the table was bought, and Bollard's home are all within a couple of miles. That alone should raise all types of red flags, imho. Also the story of disassembling the table top because of a wobbly leg just doesn't ring true. There's no need to do this to repair a leg and those Mersman table legs rarely loosen ( especially so soon). Someone was having one on here.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 15, 2008 6:03:22 GMT -5
I agree that the geographical locations involved lend a lot of credence to the likelihood of hoax from that angle, but find it difficult to believe the hole spacing just happened to match that of the ransom notes. And the holes don't appear to have been fudged in a re-drilling exercise. The question would then be, if nothing was really wrong with the table and the top did not really have to be removed for a repair, how would the hoaxer have known about this precise hole pattern, which is in effect the centrepiece of this exercise?
On the other hand, would there be any other reasons for the table top's removal - a move perhaps through a narrow doorway? If this were the case during delivery, would the retail location, Bolliard or a serviceman not have noticed the writing previously, if the source had been the Mersman factory?
Lots of questions and considerations both ways here, but the whole thing still comes up smelling Limberger to me.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 15, 2008 14:44:48 GMT -5
I hesitate to say this, but it's possible the holes were just a coincidence. They are about 1" o/c and the holes in the table are larger in diameter. That spacing is certainly not unusual (as I said my tool belt is the same). The investigators at the time never thought of it and it's possible that the writer didn't either. The best way to determine when, and possibly where the writing was applied is unfortunately no longer available. That would be by inspecting the two relative mating surfaces for relative discoloration and marking transfer. You would be able to determine if the writing was done when the table was assembled or at some later point.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 15, 2008 16:01:50 GMT -5
....and I am also just quessing that our mystery hole-driller also "reglued the wood joint below the holes so it would perfectly line up with the bottom of each page too"--amazing coincidence! One ways to figure it is we got ourselves a couple of teams going on here: - Team Lindbergh and his mentors Alexis Carrel & Henry Ford-- Nazi sympathizers, anti-semites and distributors of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
- Team Fisch--smalltime conman, forger and money launderer from Liepsig; may include BRH and Temple of Divine Power?
- Team Nosovitsky--"act accordingly", first intitials J.J.--Master spy and master forger--can't account for 1928-1938? Has a long time grudge for $50k against Senator Morrow's family?
www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/fisch.html
- Now which of these three teams would be more likely to blame Charlies absence on the N.S.D.A.P.?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 15, 2008 16:37:48 GMT -5
I guess you never saw the piece in question, Rick.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 15, 2008 19:26:15 GMT -5
Its PAR for the course for your SWAQs to be wide of the target? NEW EVIDENCE in THE LINDBERGH KIDNAPPING CASESee Photos of New Evidence. NY Times Article June 22, 2003. June 22, 2003 The New York Times Reports On New Evidence. Confession & Translation ... www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/brace.html - 44k - Cached - Similar pages--see glueline in bottom photo/ www.lindberghkidnappinghox.com--NEW EVIDENCE IN THE LINDBERGH KIDNAPPING CASE
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 15, 2008 19:54:44 GMT -5
Damn, another smite! Odd though, most men don't seem to resort to that. Well, ya never know. I guess I should know better than to question or challenge a true hoaxster. Of course you are correct Rick. The Germans at the Mersman factory will now be included in the ever widening pool of conspirators.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 15, 2008 21:11:29 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]Damn, another smite! Odd though, most men don't seem to resort to that. Well, ya never know. I guess I should know better than to question or challenge a true hoaxster. [/glow] Of course you are correct Rick. The Germans at the Mersman factory will now be included in the ever widening pool of conspirators. [/color] you actually watch those silly little numbers? wow/ I always thought they were like the "bling" or "flair" in Office Space?
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Post by Michael on Aug 16, 2008 7:35:26 GMT -5
This, to me, is an important discovery and has me scratching my head as to why the Police & other Authorities couldn't find anything in 7 years to match.
The idea of Bollard himself being the Hoaxster doesn't sit well with me. If he is smart enough to do all of this the least he could do is pre-date the table to the kidnapping when reporting his find to the Police. That, and the Author of this note not pointing out the holes and their relationship to the crime are trouble spots for me as they related to a hoax.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 16, 2008 13:57:38 GMT -5
I would qualify my statement regarding the belt by saying that by aligning exactly I mean with the same degree of tolerance as the Mersman table part. In fact I could find quite a few objects that have holes spaced about 1" o/c. None of these however, are actually identical to the note holes as the diameters of the holes are quite different. And as a template they also fail since the margins are not identical to that of the notes. So to be an exact match or to be a template ( which I personally don't think was used) the holes in the object must be of the very same size ( diameter and shape), have the same spacing, and be located proportionally from the side and bottom so as to align with those found in the notes.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 16, 2008 14:14:13 GMT -5
I would qualify my statement regarding the belt by saying that by aligning exactly I mean with the same degree of tolerance as the Mersman table part. In fact I could find quite a few objects that have holes spaced about 1" o/c. None of these however, are actually identical to the note holes as the diameters of the holes are quite different. And as a template they also fail since the margins are not identical to that of the notes. So to be an exact match or to be a template ( which I personally don't think was used) the holes in the object must be of the very same size ( diameter and shape), have the same spacing, and be located proportionally from the side and bottom so as to align with those found in the notes. Absolutely brilliant--turning a unqualified miss-statement or joke into a new theory? And you are busting me on the Mersman base? Yikes? What you really meant was "fill in the blank"? Whatever? Your credibility is now Bushian logic? "same degree of tolerance" is this double-speak? Means practically nothing/ or less? eg your belt holes DONT really match the ransom note holes? Game and set. Take Joe's advice on this one: "Give it a shot and then put this one to bed! "
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 16, 2008 16:00:08 GMT -5
I can't imagine anyone else who could appreciate that achievement more than you Rick!
Still, I feel I do not deserve to be placed on your level quite yet. I said very clearly that I was using the same degree of tolerance found in the Mersman holes. Isn't that pretty clear? If you want to keep dragging up this relic and giving it credibility then I think you ought to do the same and explain the degree of tolerance involved between the table and the notes. If you are really serious, you might even want to attempt to see how the holes could be made with this "template". That is, if it is really of any matter to you. I would be happy to furnish you with all of the dimensions.
BTW, Why did you quote me as Dave? Was that intentional? Was that meant to be a compliment or an insult? Personally, I'd like to think of it as a compliment, but remembering your encounter with him on that other board makes me wonder if it wasn't meant as an insult. How come you don't post there anymore?
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Post by rick3 on Aug 17, 2008 10:14:10 GMT -5
just hold on for a moment whilst I regain my composure...ha ha! My side aches.....hold onto your pants! Quote:"Btw, the holes on my leather work belt also align perfectly with the ransom holes". (Kevin) I must admit this is some of your very best and imaginative work: No matter how clearly you "say it" this concept does not really contain any inherant meaning within our context? As a matter for reality you could hum it or sing it too? What is "the same degree of tolerance" from what to what over what? sure thats as clear as mud? - at best this bogus comparison is "similar"?
- eg your belt holes which DONT match--somehow resemble the tolerance between the holes? or punch?
- Or between your belt and the paper? or the wood and belt?
- Or between the punch{ which we dont have} and the paper?
- there are alot of punches whose barrel is larger than the tip. But we didnt find any of those? Just nails? In BRHs garage?
- I would say the "tolerances" are pretty exact seeing as how different pages were punched in different batches with different punches YET ALL THE HOLDS STILL LINE UP JUST PERFECTLY WITH THE MERSMAN BRACE!
- apparently that eliminates your belt?
- maybe it our rush to dismiss the Mersman as Hoax we didnt yet discover how the holes were made to match so perfectly? And multiple times as well?
- I totally agree with you that much has been overlooked, including confirmation of the date of the Table brace. Apparently, insufficient interest exists in finding a matching Table?
- Simply logic tells us that if the holes dont match from note to note that the whole (hole?) exercise is in vain? thus, we just dont understand it and thats why it and the symbol remains a Mystery/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 17, 2008 10:27:39 GMT -5
By all means compose yourself!
Ok, So what is the tolerance of the holes in the Mersman relative to the notes? Do you know? I do. Guess what, they are about the same as my now famous tool belt. That is my point. Simple. If you dispute that then please provide the size and spacing of the note and table holes so as I can compare them with the measurements I took with a dial caliper. Hey, I can be wrong. Just show me what dimensions you have.
Why do I have the feeling that that's just not gonna happen?
Just like the insinuations of "planting" the wood evidence .
Whenever you ask for specifics you either get nonsense or silence.
I wonder why?
PS, You didn't answer any of my questions?
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