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Post by Michael on Jul 1, 2006 20:00:09 GMT -5
Much has been made of the fact that no one was supposed to have noticed the ransom upon noticing Charles Jr. was missing. Is it significant?
Here is the record of events as told by the Reports:
Williamson, Hopewell PD sees it at 10:30PM on the window sill.
Wolf see note on window sill.
Bornmann sees note on window sill.
DeGaetano sees note on window sill at about 11:00ish
Kelly sees note on right side of window sill.
Kelly arrived at about 12:05AM. Lindbergh was supposed to have left that note lie on the window sill for 2 hours and 5 minutes after he saw the note. CAL testifies that he isn't sure if he saw the note when he first entered the nursery. Lindy also testifies that Trooper Wolf removed the note from the window sill to the mantel but all other Officers who arrived after Wolf saw it on the sill.
Cemetery John told Condon the note was left in the crib. Now is Condon lying, and if so why? If CJ did tell Condon this, it could mean he either wasn't in the Nursery that night, or someone in the house moved the note to the window sill.
I am anxious to hear what everyone thinks.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jul 2, 2006 6:37:02 GMT -5
I think we have about the usual accuracy and consistency in recording evidence found throughout the investigation coupled with the usual bulls**t from Condon.
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Post by Michael on Jul 2, 2006 8:03:08 GMT -5
I am kind of on the same page as you when it comes to Condon. I believe he lied - but why?
As to the note....
It's possible in the confusion no one saw it at first. I don't buy the theory (as I have heard in the past on the discussion boards) that in the confusion someone moved it by accident.
Because if they did they were wearing gloves.
I struggle with both Lindbergh's testimony and his decision not to open that note for over 2 hours. I put myself in his shoes and I would want as much information as soon as I could get it.
It's almost as though he didn't want his prints on it so he left it alone.
I believe he could have misidentified Wolf as being the person who moved it. We know Kelly did that. But, how does this happen? Did he simply forget Kelly's name or Kelly himself?
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Post by rick3 on Jul 2, 2006 11:57:39 GMT -5
Hi Michael--I cant speak for everyone/ just Kevin and me:
I think everything CAL says is BS--exactly like Condon....they are like two peas in a pod.
I think the Note was moved during the wipedown and staging of the crimescene. Then forgotten.
Maybe it was in the crib originally ....but not sealed? CAL reads the note and either puts into envelope or seals it. For the entire Two Hours or more CAL knows exactly what the note reads. Maybe he composed it. CAL knows what it says period! Noone is that disciplined for no apparent reason or good sense/ unless they are Not Human?
Condon later says: he saw some blood on the crib one week later. Is he dellusional....sure....but he does speak in half-truths and half-riddles. Maybe he "heard" there was some blood there at one time, and then "thinks he saw it"too?
Maybe there was some other reason to wipe the entire nursey down that did not aim or target all the fingerpirnts? An injury to Charlie, or a seizure, or some blood from somewhere--to rid the crime scene of blood evidence?
Some person or persons had an "order" in for the makings of a kidnap ladder and ransom note before 20 Feb 1932.....at ASs shope, and the order was called COD on the 1st of March.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
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Post by kevkon on Jul 2, 2006 15:06:13 GMT -5
I don't claim to know what makes this guy tick, but do I see him as a very "needy" person. A lot of things that he does and says seem to me to be made with the intention of being on center stage. Embellishment is his forte.
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Post by gary on Jul 10, 2006 9:17:08 GMT -5
In regards to Condon lying. I believe Condon tried to independently solve the case. His trip to Florida is a real key to his mind set. Perhaps he had hunches that were made into assumptions that eventually caused him to accept certain things that were just not true.
I'd like to ask if anyone can figure these puzzles of Condon.
1. On his trip Condon seems to hint Hauptmann lead him on a goose chase there. What did Hauptmann do to make him believe that?
2. Why on earth did Hauptmann visit Capone's wife in Florida?
3. What is this story he later denied that he was telling the truth that he was blindfolded onto a boat to visit 5 members of a gang?
Regarding the ransom note found in the crib. It appears Lindbergh secretly admitted to Condon the note was there. This is a serious event if this would be true. For if so what else is incorrectly described in the room ?
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Post by mjrichmond on Jul 11, 2006 7:55:57 GMT -5
<<<I struggle with both Lindbergh's testimony and his decision not to open that note for over 2 hours. I put myself in his shoes and I would want as much information as soon as I could get it. >>>
Michael - I, too would have opened it myself, right away.
The question, however, is not really what you or I would have done. The question is whether what Lindbergh did is consistent with the personality of Charles Lindbergh. From what I have read of him, leaving that note untouched was very much the kind of thing HE would have done. As was "taking over" the ransom negotiations.
<<<It's almost as though he didn't want his prints on it so he left it alone.>>>
Exactly what I would expect if he had nothing to do with the crime.
Had he written the note, on the other hand, I think he would have picked up the note, opened it and gotten as many of his prints on it as possible just in case he missed some when he wrote it. I think he would have done the same with the window, the crib and the ladder. If I were he and I was involved, I would have found a way to leave my prints all over the scene to explain any I left when I committed the crime.
Mjr
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
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Post by Joe on Jul 11, 2006 8:35:40 GMT -5
Lindbergh also decided right away, to call in the police. If he had had any part in setting up the kidnapping, I believe he would have been loathe to do this and also invite the press which he generally held in contempt, as well as the focussed attention of the entire world to his doorstep. It seems more likely to me he would have opened the note and quietly "do as he was directed," or perhaps set up a discreet line of negotiation in conjunction with the police.
In his critical moment of realization that his son was in great possible danger, I believe he rationalized that the more people and forces that could be mobilized right way would help to cut off the kidnappers escape in the critical early stage. Perhaps his military experience came into play here but I think he would have also almost egotistically, expected everyone who could help, to respond in unison to his distress.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 11, 2006 11:42:58 GMT -5
Gary....can you say where you found that BRH led Condon to Florida? I thought Condon visited Al-scarface's wife on his own volition? Gary.....Do you mean Condon ???I always assumed that Mrs. Capone was the "one good woman in a rotten family" that Condon was keeping as a secret upon her request? Since Al Capone was at first suspected of Charlies kidnap, later on no evidence supported this jump to conclusion? Condon was contacted by her early on his go-between role. Gary--I found this story twice to be quite honest. Its nearly a crazy storey. Condon was making secretive trips in the evenings with suitcases and out-witting the Keystone BOI agents acrossed the street. Anyways, he claimed he was taken on board a ship or yacht in Long island Sound by the "gang". There he meets 5 persons including "john" and "doc" (nosovitsky?)and 3 others. This account appears in newspapers and one book. Anyways, it has "hoax" and "Curtis" written all over it. Its almost as if Condon was fearful of being upstaged in the Press by Curtis and his trips to Newark, Cape May NJ and etc. Any storey of Condons is up for grabs any way you look at it--especially if he goes alone? What I find so intriquing is that no matter what you hear, both Condon and Curtis got off scot free without every turning up Charlie. They should call this the "Yacht Club Kidnappings" Well, if we are to believe Kevins accounts, the Perp forgot to bring the Ransom Note up the ladder the first trip so he then added the third section of the ladder, put it back up against the Library Wall, scrambled up a second time and closed the window. If this isnt the Staged Crimescene to beat all then Im a Monkeys Uncle? Do you believe that? DYBT? [The staged crimescene to match the staged ransom negotiations]
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Post by Michael on Jul 11, 2006 17:39:59 GMT -5
I can't accept this Gary. He played dumb at times, feigned forgetfulness, and outright lied. One only needs to read his book, Jafsie Tells All to see this. Take his position on the Samuelsohn encounter (page 207) he completely lies about this in order to neutralize the true version of events.
This is how his brain worked...
Another perfect example was his failure to identify Hauptmann. I think he was attempting to protect him. Now earlier when Condon seemed to be implicating Simek, it was later determined through solid investigation that Simek had an alibi. It was suggested to Condon that possibly it was one of Simek's brothers because, in essence, they all looked similar. Obviously Condon remembered this comment and applied it to his failure to identify Hauptmann - who by the way - looked absolutely nothing like Hauptmann.
I believe Condon's job was to muddy the waters and he did a damn good job of it.
I am going to start to research your points 1 - 3 (4) but it would be helpful to know exactly what sources you are relying on.
You could be right MJR but I am not sold on it. From my observations, at times, Lindbergh seems "matter of factly" and/or calculated while at other times seems quite odd or strange. One attribute that seems consistent however was his need to control and if not in control to take it.
Again, you could be right. But I think you are arriving at this conclusion as if it wasn't HIS son who had just been stolen. He's acting like a Cop in this situation who has no personal attachment to the victim. No one knew what was in that letter, heck, it could have instructed him to drive $5000 dollars to Mt. Rose in 1 hr. in exchange for his son. For me, immediate information is something anyone whose son was just kidnapped would have sought. What exactly is the purpose of waiting?
Fingerprints? What about his son?
Personally, I have a real hard time believing CAL didn't open the note to see exactly where he stood and/or weighed his options before blindly calling the Police.
I totally disagree. Taking a perspective of an inside connection and/or staged kidnapping - you would want the both Police involved and the world to believe an external source was the culprit.
If this is true, why did he veto the FBI's plan at guarding the Canadian border after the ransom drop? For that matter, why did he exclude the Police from the ransom drop itself? Seems to me a drastic change in philosophy occurred.
I've read about this a couple of times myself. Rick what are your sources? Before I dive into this I want to take a look at all accounts.
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Post by gary on Jul 11, 2006 17:45:51 GMT -5
Hey Rick,
On page 372 of Gardner's book Condon was supposed to make this comment in context of Condon taking a lie detector test.
"I'll make a deception test if Hauptmann will tell why he sent me to the swamps of Florida to look for Colonel Lindbergh's child."
On page 376 of Gardner's book first paragraph....
"Then (Condon) pretended to let Oursler in on a big secret. Cemetary John had told him at Woodlawn that the first note was left in the crib, but it didn't sound right. Yes, it was declared Lindbergh-and that proved he was negotiating with the right man."
I'm thinking maybe Condon was visiting Mrs Capone to let her know that he found no suspicion her husband was involved. I find Capone/Wendel angle a little interesting and I am going to try to find more material on it. I've read Wendel was trying to impress Capone for support in some scheme but was blown off by him.
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Post by Michael on Jul 12, 2006 5:33:23 GMT -5
Ok. From what I see above from Gary it appears you are both relying on Dr. Gardner's book. This boat episode, by the way, also includes a Spanish "kidnapper" as well - and Jafsie did say this.
Now a little back round quickly before I have to shut down.... Condon before his giving in to Wilentz and Company was still "looking" for CJ. Of course he would later reverse himself and say Hauptmann was CJ, but it wasn't until he felt threatened by the Governor that he would start to actually replace CJ for Hauptmann. So when he declares that "Hauptmann" sent him to the swamps of Florida then its my belief what he is saying is that CJ said something to send him there.
Again, it was a neutralizing tactic in order to defend himself from the attacks of the Governor.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 12, 2006 11:01:52 GMT -5
It appears to me that the LKC is beginning to unravel with Jafsie Condon at its center? A dream come true:
1. For nighe on 30 months, from March 1932 to Sept 1934, Jafsie Condon was the sole Prime Suspect--or at least Prime Person of Interest by Harry Walsh. Art Koehler is watching his house and tracing the ladder lumber to Condons lumberyard? Hmmm.....
2. Condon is now caught up in so many lies we have lost count...most notable that Frank Perimi manufactured the ransom box? Frank Sr. died in 1931? Oops........
3. Condon is burning the candle at both ends or playing all sides against the middle. It is now recorded that he knows Abraham Samuelsohn "for many years" and drops into chat with him all the time...just down the block.
4. Condon is identified by Fred Smyder as being in Abraham Samuelsohn's shop with the ladder wood laying on the floor on 25 Sept 1932? And this is verified, in part, by the accompaniment of Al Reich! Why does a school teacher need a bodyquard?
5. Jafsie feels comfortable bringing his entire Family into the LKC in one capacity or another. Son-in-law Ralph Hacker, the architech from Englewood, designs the ransom box and makes a plaster cast of CJs footprint, with Agent Sisk, at Woodlawn. Does Ralph also design the kidnap ladder diagram? Myra Condon Hacker, the daughter in law meets the second cabbie at the door with the note for the ransom drop, and accompanies Jafsie on his Panama Trip. There appears to be no fear of arrest for any of them? [and there never was?]
6. Was Condon and his family paid in advance ($50,000) to arrange Charlies kidnap? Did Jafsie suggest to BRH that it was safe now to buy gas with the Gold Certs? Is Jafsie the real mastermind or just the paid pawn?
6. So, everyone cant be telling the whole truth and nothing but the Truth now can they? Someone must be shaving the stories. Not one author or person has ever accused Jafsie Condon of being involved in the plot....thats sure flying below the radar huh Kevin?
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Post by gary on Jul 12, 2006 21:22:30 GMT -5
Michael , Its understandable to be suspicious of Condon. I don't see him involved in the actual kidnapping at all. I believe if he is involved it would have begun afterwards to secure the ransom. Then you have to ask for what ..... there is only $50,000 here. Maybe you can explain to me sometime the theory of two payments.
Personally I am not ready to admit Hauptmann is CJ. Maybe I am just one of those thick guys that refuse to give in. There are discrepancies that have to be dealt with in the simplest way. We all know about the lookouts. Who is to say one of the lookouts was apprehended by Condon and not the original contact behind the gate. What if the lookout sees his partner running and the lookout flees behind him. That brings me to the next step in trying to explain the hacking cough and the enlarged thumb. Personally this is more like Fisch than Hauptmann to me. So I accept Condon couldn't identify Hauptmann and we do know this to be true as well as the spectacular explanation of identification and declaration. This might have been the reason Hauptmann counted on Condon to set him free.
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Post by Michael on Jul 13, 2006 5:37:42 GMT -5
Gary,
Both you and Rick have sent me on a "scavenger hunt" looking for O'Sullian's article about Condon. At one point I had the damn thing and wanted to post it in full for everyone. It's important because Jafsie did tell A.O. this which he swore under oath in an affidavit....
I have some of the footnoted material used in Dr. Gardner's book and what he writes about is on the money. His style of describing those instances gives the Reader a proper account of how (I think) Condon wanted the person listening to him to feel - confused.
Condon wasn't crazy. I believe he possessed guilty knowledge of the crime and was inserted to delver the cash, and provide distractions to insulate the culprits pursuing the additional $50,000. I do think Condon believed he was smarter then he actually was and that because of this he leaks some valuable clues out mixed in with with all of his evasiveness speak.
Despite Condon's account of catching CJ as he ran away from Reihl at Woodlawn, there is no way this man is involved in the actual "kidnapping" at Hopewell. However, that didn't save Hauptmann.
Let's take Condon's account of entry into this case.....
He claims that all he had, his life's savings of $1000, was "scraped" together and offered along with the $50,000. Next we have this group accepting his services but declining his money.
Huh? That's an awfully kind gesture is it not?
Next, we find out that because Lindbergh called the Cops the gang had to bring another person in and upped the bill to $70,000. Inspector Walsh thought this was Condon and it makes sense. So what happens? Condon knowing these bills making up the extra $20,000 are more easily traced somehow talks them out of this money because he makes them feel sorry for Lindbergh.
Huh? Didn't they kill his son? Are these people ruthless or conscientious?
Finally we learn that Condon used up $12,000 of his own money in connection with this case. Can someone tell me where the other $11,000 came from?
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Post by Michael on Jul 15, 2006 19:40:07 GMT -5
On May 15th Condon visited the rogue's gallery at headquarters. From that point forward our story read in effect as follows: After scrutinizing pictures of the quintet who 'threatened to get him without fail', he shook his head.
"'They are not here', he told detectives. 'Maybe they are arrested. I'd be able to recognize four of them in a minute, but I am not so sure about the fifth. I ought to know them. They had me in a mighty tight spot one afternoon.
"'It was about a week after I had met the first one--John--in Woodlawn cemetery that I was told I would be taken out to the boat where the baby was. I was blind-folded and rowed out to a vessel off Throggs Neck.
"'When I got on the deck, they took the bandages from my eyes. I was in the center of a circle of five men. Each had a pistol pointed at me.
"'Put down your guns,' I said. 'I'm not armed.'
"They all lowered their pistols except one fellow they called "Doc."
"'That's all right', he said, 'but there is a penalty for the crime we've committed--fifty years. We aren't going to take any chances.'
"'They made no effort to conceal their faces. One talked with a German accent, one with a Spanish and one with an Italian.'"
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Jul 16, 2006 3:41:48 GMT -5
Michael, is this O'Sullivan the reporters account of Jafsie and the Pirates of Scroogs Neck? Or from Jafsie Tells All? What newspaper?
Just the date is suspicious? Is Condon telling this to catch up to Curtis inthe headlines? Condon has some serious mental problems in terms of seeking noteriety? And the spotlight. Hes like Nixon, and would drive over his own grandmother to make a point? Or even a lie? What purpose was served by revealling this putative event after Charlie was found? To prove Condons veracity and dedication to putting Charlies arms arounds mommas neck? Its truly astounding that Condon was not arrested for flimflam just like Curtis and Means. This proves the hoax and that his high level benefactor was fully satisfied with his obfuscations, lies, red herrings, tall tales and false leads/ A true Master of Deception.
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Post by Michael on Jul 16, 2006 11:13:37 GMT -5
The source of the story was O'Sullivan. I can't find the actual newspaper article yet so I decided to post the version coming from Harvey Deuell in his letter answering Governor Hoffman. Deuell was the Managing Editor of The News. Deuell confirmed O'Sullivan was engaged in covering the Lindbergh case at this very time and was assigned to keep track of Jafsie. Surely looks that way.... At first Condon resisted Curtis, but this seems to be evidence that, I suppose, he thought if you can't beat them - join them. This story would tie in nicely with Curtis. Condon had on more then one occasion alluded to a 'split' in the Gang so perhaps feared Curtis was dealing with one or more of them, or perhaps he was just doing his job in attempting to divert the Police to chase an imaginary foe - take your pick. One things for sure - he wasn't telling the truth - again. Perhaps somewhere in there is a nugget of truth... the problem is how the hell do you find it? It's what Walsh wanted to do. What saved Condon exactly? Well in my opinion it was the combination of these factors: - The Secret Symbol
- Schwarzkopf's jealousy of Walsh
- Schwarzkopf's jealousy of the FBI
- Condon's willingness to identify Hauptmann
It seems like every time something happened to make the hammer fall on top of Condon an event exemplified above would save him.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 16, 2006 12:39:01 GMT -5
Well, looking back with 20/20 hindsight I would submit that Condon earned his indictment and conviction every bit as ernestly and competently as Curtis and Means?
He comes onto the scene literally out of nowheres (eg The Bronx Home News) pumping his own weird adgenda? He runs all around spreading tall tales and a pack of lies about chasing down a 25 year olde CJ who is crying about Mom and Dad, and also giving out Free Get Out of Jail Cards to Red and Betty for no apparent reason. He never tells the same story twice?
He has a wooden box made for some bizarre purpose never accounted for and then throws the money over the fence and the wooden box into the bushes to be recovered later?
He lies about Samuelsohn and the ladder wood. And costs CAL about $50,000 bucks for a sleeping suite, a thumbguard and a blackened corpse? If that isnt a failure then what is?
Jafsies best quote "I can never testify against this man" He redeems himself by being a total liar and doing just the opposite.
All in all he failed no more or more less than Curtis and Means? And at least as good! You dont think he could have had a Guardian Angel in High Places now do you? Maybe the same one as Curtis? Whose your daddy?
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Jul 16, 2006 22:29:42 GMT -5
Michael...just for the record:
Insnt O'Sullivan the reporter that snuck into the morgue in Trenton to snatch a photo of Charlie Jrs corpse? And...didnt Condon have a copy of this photo signed by O'Sullivan too?
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Post by Michael on Jul 19, 2006 17:33:50 GMT -5
I believe Condon claimed the picture he had of the child came from O'Sullivan but he wasn't the one who snuck into the morgue to take the shots.
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mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Aug 5, 2006 14:32:57 GMT -5
Bits and pieces --trying to reconstruct the Cerrita connection. 5 March CAL receives second kidnap note (counting the nursery note as the 1st) 6 March(I think that date is correct), she meets with authorities, including Breckenridge whose name she mis pronounces "Breckenbridge". Several times during this session she asked if CAL has rec'd anything from kidnappers through the mail. date I couldn't find--3rd ransom note rec'd in which it is said "Breckenbridge" will act as go between. Contains symbol. Doesn't there have to be a linkage, here?
Sometime in summer of '31 Shippel (Lindbergh's neighbor) rents to someone named "Seritta". O. Whateley gives some tours of the new house. He supposedly attends the church Ceritta is associated with.
At some point in time Shippel supposedly says there had been a hole dug on his property with trees marked around it. Don't know if there's anything to that --he may have just been a crazy old fool. I 'm probably reaching, here, but it crosses my mind if the hole he mentioned is a first burial. Since he lives there at area where a corpse was later found, he would have ready access to move a body, had he discovered it in the hole.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 5, 2006 15:35:56 GMT -5
Hi Mairi/ yes, I think that Peter, Paul and Mary were a bit too quick on the draw with a reading? Also they were extremely clever to use a telegram, thus bypassing the oodles of snail mail? And right acrossed the street from Fischs aparto as well. (the author, Lawrence Block, also uses coincidences in his Burgler series)
I assume: i) Mary and Peter are clever and trying to gain entrance into Highfields and the Nursery ii) they are blocked by Breckenridge and Mickey Rosner iii) an insider gives them the telegram tip and iv) when they get stranded in Princeton Junction they opt to send JFC Condon down next! But they are gang2/ the Bronx extortioners.
Gang1 (kindnappers?) does its dirty deed at Highfields and holds Charlie. The only reason I can quess for CAL to wait 2 hours+ was to give Gang1 time to get away? Fingerprints are passe in this case; totally meaningless/
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