mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Jul 5, 2008 19:12:42 GMT -5
Very interesting post, Michael. After the trial no less. Can't figure out why Anne and Betty had occasion to open the window in the afternoon(?) Hadn't heard that before. Am sure others have noticed this, too--Betty says at the 10 O'clock check she felt all around the crib. Then, I think it was Cal who said the blanket was still mounded to the baby's shape.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jul 5, 2008 19:57:40 GMT -5
Finnicky is the perfect description for the old wooden sash weight windows, Joe. They were made with a certain amount of slop or clearance since the sash traveled vertically in a wood track and humidity and paint had to be taken into consideration. Problem is that if you apply a force off center or horizontally to them they tend to jam. Of course someone who has been employed to replace these windows ala National Lumber would know the vagaries of these windows all too well. I am puzzled as to why anyone would expect to find any marks from a prybar since the sash lock was not broken and hence the window was not locked.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2008 11:14:13 GMT -5
Good observation Mairi... These are the types of discrepancies I often search for and were overlooked. Sometimes they mean something and other times they don't. It's good to make a note of it because sometimes you notice something else that fits in with it.
Kevin,
What I am thinking is that Pope, just like everyone else, was thinking only two sections were used. Also going on the assumption that an outsider would believe the window was locked. And so you would have someone on the 2-section ladder attempting to open a close and locked window from the outside. So I suspect both he and Inspector Walsh expected some sort of tampering occurred. We know by Lloyd's book that the shutter had been removed before this experiment by Schwarzkopf (and probably ruined) so there's nothing on its examination that I know of yet.
Bottom line is, I believe, if someone is expecting the shutters to be unlocked and the window to be unlocked so as to not need a tool of any kind to assist in breaching them, then its a circumstance which suggests aid of some kind from insider information being disclosed to someone - somewhere.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jul 6, 2008 12:23:12 GMT -5
Yesterday we were at a job trying to get some work done. Since the client didn't expect us they locked the Garage doors before they went away. Since we needed some items in the Garage, I needed to get in and so I checked the double hung Garage windows. Sure enough, one was unlocked and I climbed in. The point is twofold. One, it's very easy to overlook locking double hung windows. In fact I would bet most homes with these windows have at least one unlocked at any given time. Second, although I had a good assortment of tools in my belt, I did not even think of using any since I naturally first tried opening the window by hand. So if I had been a burglar there would be no sign of forced entry since no tools were required. You would probably have some type of tool with you, but common sense would dictate trying to open the window without them first.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2008 13:29:31 GMT -5
But would one when considering they....
Are dealing with the most famous man on the planet? Firstly it seems they aren't expecting a Guard, why I don't know, but if you don't expect one of those wouldn't you at least expect the shutter and/or window to be locked?
Next, don't these types of windows have to be locked in order to create a "seal?" I know mine did in my old house in Lambertville, and considering the wind I would expect this to be done.
The other thing is you on a ladder. Now if its two sections I still say its impossible. But if you are on 3, and the shutter is open, then you could probably see, just as you did, that the window is unlocked.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jul 6, 2008 13:52:09 GMT -5
But I didn't see that the window was locked, I just tried to open it. If you're on that ladder you would do the same. Sure you might expect it to be locked, but so what? You bring a tool along in case it is, you check to see if it actually is. If it's not, you just slide up the window and keep the tool in your pocket.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2008 14:38:42 GMT -5
But was this planned or wasn't it? Did the Kidnappers base everything on probables?
There's probably no guard. There's probably an unlocked shutter. There's probably a board walk. There's probably an unlocked window. This is probably the Nursery. The Baby is probably there....
The ladder teaches us about these Criminals. They planned everything out down to the smallest of details as it pertains to this ladder. Why then wouldn't they act this way concerning everything else?
BTW...do you agree on the seal? I think this came up before but I can't find the post.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
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Post by kevkon on Jul 6, 2008 15:07:01 GMT -5
I am not sure about the probability issue. I assume they planned for the contingency of locked windows and shutters. I assume some type of tools were brought along in this case. As it happened, they were not needed. Same as my experience yesterday, one way or another I would have found a way in. Fortunately an unlocked window was the answer. it wouldn't have been a deal breaker, though, if it had been locked. Yes, the sash lock does act as a weather seal by pulling the top and bottom sash together. But that is moot in this case since Gow and/or Anne decided to allow fresh air into the Nursery. Note the picture of the window to the left, it is also unlocked and slightly open. I suppose you can argue that decision, but the unlocked windows are only a result.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
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Post by Joe on Jul 6, 2008 17:39:09 GMT -5
Is the point about the presence or not of any tool marks on the window frame not addressed through the admission of Betty Gow that the SW window was closed but not locked on the night of March 1? Pope and Walsh should have been aware of this. Further that this was common practice on the second story. I'm wondering if the stated reason for this visit was a ruse on their part to further explore, with case participants in attendance, the theory that insider information had been passed along to the kidnapper. Walsh certainly would have had an interest in this due to his long standing belief Violet Sharp was involved.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2008 18:16:00 GMT -5
I think one of the points that can be inferred is that since it took two people to open it from the inside then one from the out would probably need tools. But again, I think Pope was (as was everyone else) thinking the Kidnapper was on the 2-sections and not 3.
It's a little known fact that Walsh agreed to assist. Interesting development I think.
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jack7
Major
Der Führer
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Post by jack7 on Jul 6, 2008 21:58:07 GMT -5
Do you think the kidnapper was using three sections Michael? What did Walsh "assist" with that is controvertial? If Walsh is bad, and the pretty much implication by the detractors that Bornmann is bad (even though he stood up to his bosses boss {Hoffmann} very strongly) - then the whole world could be bad! My Grandfather used to say, "there is always a rat in the outhouse." How many people can possibly be involved in this crime? There are police people(s) altering Hauptmann's work records. There are people (police and DA) strongly influencing exclusionary witnesses. There are police dumping a crime scene. There are people (Finn's bosses) refusing to use logical exclusionary tactits on simple automobile license applications. There are people who completely dropped the investigation or Mary Cirett et. al., and several other investigations upon Hauptmann's arrest. And on and on. Hauptmann had nothing to do with their conspiratorial nature - everyone thought Hauptmann was guilty, and they just followed suite. In all of the inklings throughout the years which proscribe Hauptmann as innocent, there are many more which proscribe him guilty of involvement, and just ask Bob Mills for confirmation - or rather don't, he doesn't have time for this.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2008 22:18:24 GMT -5
By saying this I meant friendly to the Defense. I have a lot on this and have often wondered why they didn't use this to their advandage more.
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jack7
Major
Der Führer
Posts: 1,920
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Post by jack7 on Jul 8, 2008 0:44:26 GMT -5
Several points here: The kidnapper could not have been on three sections. That's called physics. There would have been scratches against the relatively new siding material from the third section, just like there were from the second section. I understand about your "friendly to the defence" comment and I think Walsh above all others was really trying to solve an extrordinary crime. It's too bad that he stopped investigating after Richard's arrest or perhaps he could have gotten to the bottom of it to which in yours, obviously, and my opinion there is a lot more bottom. There are really certainly so many issues. Condon truly was deranged - I've looked at his stuff a lot and while he is extremely, perhaps over extremely, functional, he reminds me of a 50's mom on diet . Now if he was doing some form of drugs, or perhaps alcoholic because of his paunch, that stuff catches up with a person. He certainly became more and more irrational as the fiasco wore on - I'd give anything for a tape of him reciting Shakespeare in the plane! So I think it's cute - but it really isn't, because he's out there for his fun and everybody else would rather be elswhere. Lindbergh was also an edger. It appears he had an inclination to "get it done," no matter what. We all have inclinations - they are mostly visible in those that we know well. "He always puts seven icecubes in a glass," "she only will open her mail with the same letter-opener," those are kind of extreme, but we tend to repetitavely do most things in certain ways - and surprisingly, we "believe" that is the correct way, while any way would sufficiently do. LINDBERGH DIDN'T ACT UNUSUALLY DURING THE PERIOD OF THE CRIME - HE SIMPLY BROADCAST HIS UNUSUAL INCLINATIONS. Differing from Jafsie or Schwartzkopf, however, Lindbergh's were completely positive in nature. Under stress, our inclinations are clearly defined - that's why they have hot lights at police interviews. If a person is a potential killer, he may not admit to a crime, but he will eventually say "OK I could do some problem - turn off the light,", and that's step one to a confession. So Colnel Lindbergh was really trying to get the thing over with and to get his son back, and his natural inclinations were on camera, and people for many years have been taking them the wrong way. Walsh and Finn were on camera too. They were, I think, as good as any officers of their day, but look at what different roads they traveled even in this, which if it hadn't been Lindbergh, would have been a pretty simple crime. Finn might have solved it - Walsh never would have - Hoover, if he ever left his office except for photo-shoot would have just screwed it more than it was screwed, and the District Attorney's office bungling in - especially hiding excompulsary evidence - was nothing more than an actual hazard. The people deserve the truth - that's why they're paying large DA staffs - the people don't deserve BS which is what they got! If it hadn't been Lindbergh the crime would never have been solved - of course if it wasn't for Charles Lindbergh it never would have happened. Once when I was flying overseas on another "job" as I used to call them, a woman came up to me in an airport - this was when they'd let anybody wander airports, and she said, "you are going towards danger. You will meet a man with much metal. You will buy it and you will help many. God bless you." I thought, man - loonies on the tarmak - I was dressed in civilian clothes (in those days you didn't want to broadcast how many babies you'd been killing) - she would, I thought, have no reason to address me about anything. Her message, though was kind of imprinted upon my mind, because usually nothing much happens in airports. Well, I'll be darned if her message didn't become completely true - and in thinking back, perhaps that's what happened to condon - a crazie who knows more than we do.
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Post by Michael on Jul 13, 2008 11:17:53 GMT -5
Here is another great photo of Fred Pope during the trial. In this photo he is going over Hauptmann's attic floor..... It's listed on ebay now. What you are buying here is just the picture but not the rights, still, I think its worth the price. Run a search through the ebay box at the bottom of the board in order to find the listing....
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