dena
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Post by dena on Apr 7, 2008 17:44:41 GMT -5
I haven't asked Michael if I can do this, so I hope it is okay.
The thought of the Pope Papers being lost forever to private collections is just disturbing to me. Who knows what info those papers could contain? Potential clews we could lose forever.
I live on the West Coast, nowhere near NJ. But would anyone else be interested in starting a collective fund of donations that could go towards purchasing some of these documents? Sending our donations to (we would need to figure out the logistics of this) to somebody willing to handle the money and then designate somebody to choose some of the documents being offered (its not being sold as one big collection, is it ?) for sale, and donate these documents to the NJSP Archives? For posterity. And so maybe even if we don't unravel all the threads of this case, maybe future generations can.
I do not have a lot, so for me I could donate $25.00 for Instance. But if we all could do that, it could really add up. And maybe we can at least purchase a few documents out of the Pope Collection to add to the NJSP archives.
Any thoughts on this?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 8, 2008 6:52:38 GMT -5
Boy Dena it's nice to see someone with so much faith in humanity! ( not to mention LKC comradeship) Good Luck You can count me in!
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 8, 2008 10:47:47 GMT -5
Cool! I just hate the thought that these papers could be gone forever, parceled out, & no one would recognize the historical significance of these documents. It would be so nice if they could be in a place where all researchers could have them available to study.
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Post by rmc1971 on Apr 9, 2008 5:39:58 GMT -5
Count me in as well.
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Post by Michael on Jun 13, 2008 17:22:43 GMT -5
I've been informed the collection will be sold on ebay starting Sunday Nite, June 15th. Here is a little preview concerning the collection. (There may be more then what is listed below): This is an interesting collection of documents which pertains to the notorious Lindbergh Kidnapping Trial. They were discovered in 1994 and belonged to Judge Frederick Allan Pope. Judge Pope was an assistant defense attorney for the accused, Bruno Richard Hauptmann, who was ultimately found guilty of murdering Charles Lindbergh's 20 month old son. Hauptmann later died in the electric chair on April 2, 1936 in Trenton, New Jersey. Pope's career included becoming a Somerset County Prosecutor then later appointed as a Somerset County Judge. He was best known for his constant attempts at keeping the "kidnap" ladder from being admitted as evidence. Despite publications to the contrary, Pope believed during the trial, and to the day he died that Hauptmann was a "victim of planted evidence", and the "most ignorant frame-up in history." Now is your chance at owning multiple pieces of history and an inside look at the case from Pope's true perspective.
1. Sketch of Fred Pope. Signed by Hilda Zaenglein & T.R. Hughes (??). Dated 1/13/35. Appears authentic signature of Zaenglein who was one of the Defense Handwriting Experts that did not testify. Her name would resurface in the late 1970's after Anthony Scaduto interviewed her for his book Scapegoat. 2. Letter to Pope from E.L. Grant (from the office of past state councilor) dated 1/28/35 requesting trial passes. 3. Trial Note sketches and personal notes concerning "kidnap" ladder & nursery window. 4. Trial Note sketches of Hauptmann Attic and personal notes concerning what Pope felt was an absolute frame-up. 5. Newspaper clipping "Fair Enough" by Westbrook Pegler. 6. Pages from Leader Journal dated 1/11/35. 7. Newspaper clipping from World-Telegram with Ed Reilly picture (Lead Defense Attorney) 8. Letter of support dated 1/23/35 (Anonymous) 9. Letter of observations concerning wood testimony at the trial and capitol punishment dated 1/24/35. (2) pages and unsigned. 10. Letter of suggestions dated 1/24/35 (Anonymous) 11. Letter of suggestions dated 1/25/35 (4) pages (Anonymous) 12. Letter to Pope from Dr. Carl R. Keppler dated 1/26/35 concerning blood clot in corpse of the murdered child and Prosecution Witness Hochmuth. 13. Handwritten Letter dated 2/4/35 (Apparently a Crank) 14. Letter to Pope from Karl Steinbrecher dated 2/2/35 concerning "kidnap" ladder. 15. Western Union to Reilly from Arch Loney dated 2/8/35. Loney was a wood expert who did not testify at the Trial. Much discussion occurred because it had been alleged he was not allowed to due to the fact he would have testified on behalf of the Defense. Loney would later find himself working for Gov. Harold Hoffman once Hoffman decided to re-open the case. 16. Letter to Pope from R. N. Ostermann dated 2/8/35 concerning suggestions. 17. Letter of suggestion dated 2/8/35 concerning the "kidnap" ladder. Although unsigned, this letter appears to Researchers as probably originating from Defense Witness Hugh Orr. 18. Damaged Picture of Defense Attorney Pope, Reilly and several Defense Handwriting Experts to include Goodspeed, and Trendley. 19. Letter to Pope requesting return of a lucky charm sent to Defense Attorney Lloyd Fisher. 20. Handwritten Press Telegraph Cable from Arthur Reeve requesting to see "you" (Pope?) 21. Letter to Pope (undated) asking him to present him with certain questions while on the stand and concerning his previous testimony about the wood. Researchers say it is most likely from Defense Witness Charles de Bisschop whose testimony attempted to rebut that Rail 16 and S-226 were once the same board. According to Dr. Lloyd Gardner's latest and best researched book, The Case That Never Dies, de Bisschop was a:
"lumberman from Massachusetts who tried to demonstrate that the admitted gap between rail 16 and the State's Exhibit 226 could not be filled in with the drawings Koehler had produced to show they were pieces of the same board." (p 340) 22. Anonymous Suggestion 23. Anonymous Letter (3) pages unsigned concerning wood. 24. Trial Notes 25. Damaged Letter 26. Anonymous Letter 27. Letter to Pope from "Gibson" concerning observations 28. Numerous envelopes from which some of these items arrived to Pope.
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Post by Michael on Jun 13, 2008 18:03:46 GMT -5
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 14, 2008 23:39:00 GMT -5
I'll buy in Dena.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 15, 2008 7:29:47 GMT -5
Doesn't seem like much of real value in this "collection". Still, if you're interested in getting it give me a PM as I may be able to help you. Can't say more than that.
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Post by Michael on Jun 16, 2008 9:35:47 GMT -5
I am not sure if I got bad intel or I just can't find the listing.... Anyway, for those interested - here is a photo of Pope with Hauptmann. This photo is not included in the auction but I wanted to post it to put a face with the name: Not sure where this photo originated excepting from the public domain somewhere on the internet. I post it for educational purposes only.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 16, 2008 10:48:23 GMT -5
I looked too and couldn't find it. Hopefully, the owner will have a change fo heart and just donate it to the NJSP Museum. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot to get excited about in the collection.
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Post by Michael on Jun 17, 2008 18:52:44 GMT -5
I am being told it will be listed tonight at 9PM. Cross your fingers. I think it is an interesting collection and do find it contains some important and unique items. Whoever buys it will have something no one else will..
Maybe whoever buys it will donate it to the NJSP Archives. I hope so.
Did you know that at one time Pope and Kimberling were on opposite sides of a case? In 1925 Pope represented a client by the name of Daniel Genese who was accused of the shooting which killed Trooper Robert Coyle. The State Police had a confession but Pope alleged it had been beaten out of his client. Kimberling, then a Major with the NJSP, said he had been the one who conducted the official examination and that Genese had not been beaten.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 18, 2008 5:57:50 GMT -5
$1000 for that?? It seems like a bunch of leftover files and not much of value. The sellers rating doesn't help either.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 2:42:05 GMT -5
For Michael: I'll buy them if you want (for donation to the NJSP or whatever) - but I'd have to get my money back later and have some form of guarantee. But if you really want to "hold" them for a while I can do that, but I certainly don't want them. No rush on getting them gone - but again a signed guarantee. Jack
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Post by Michael on Jun 21, 2008 8:30:28 GMT -5
Jack,
I am not exactly sure what your proposition is but I can't get involved with anything to do with this collection and/or money now. I see money being in very short supply for me for quite some time, but honestly speaking, if I had $1000 and hadn't declared that I wouldn't bid then I would. It's one of those things where the value is placed in the person's hands who wants it the most.
I do hope that whoever buys it will donate it. Personally, I think there is value to this collection. I think the notes pertaining to the ladder and Hauptmann's attic are especially interesting and - its unique material. I would ask as many questions as possible about this material but it reminds me of possible contents that could be found in any other collection of material at the NJSP Archives - excepting this one isn't anywhere else but on Ebay right now. To me its real history and a type of eavesdropping on the Defense by owning material they probably didn't think anyone else would ever see.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 21, 2008 21:53:06 GMT -5
Michael, I'm saying that I would buy them and hold them until someone who has a desperate need to see them in the NJSP Museum can affod to put them there. They'd actually be an excellent value because of their subjective nature, and whoever eventually purchased and donated them could claim an estimated gift value (easily obtained by many at probably $ 10,000 plus) and that's a direct write off on taxes. The only way it would not be allowed would be if the NJSP Museum rejected them which is unlikely. IRS does not closely look at middle income so it would probably be a push. So, again, I'll buy them but I don't want them, and I'd want a post dated personal check to cover me and shipping to and fro.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 22, 2008 7:40:01 GMT -5
Jack, take a close look at what you get for a starting bid of $1000. Look at how little is actually from Pope. Look at the comical ladder note. Save your money or make a donation to the NJSP ( since our state is nearly bankrupt). That's better than rewarding bad EBayers.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 22, 2008 21:37:25 GMT -5
I certainly don't want to buy TPP Kev, just willing to offer a free loan if someone thinks they should be in the NJSP Museum. Seems they would be a nice museum item, but I've never been there and unless it's been somehow majorily reorganized - last I heard it was just many piles of things odd anyway.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 22, 2008 22:16:13 GMT -5
For Michael: OK - I'll call up Vito and Brutagglia and we'll try to get the guy to donate them. But don't get your hopes up - some guys work well with busted knees and feet nailed to the floor. Hey a laptop - they're still rockin'. My offer still stands to supply the loan. Thanks for your input Kev, and you're right I could get stung. But stinging me is not quite the same as stinging Larry down the street. Jack
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 22, 2008 22:54:48 GMT -5
For Michael: OK Michael - the tentacles are now out to the PP owners - we'll see. Jack
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2008 8:21:08 GMT -5
For Michael: A person named Tim promptly got back to me reiterating what you said earlier, that in spite of the benifits in favor of donating the PPs to NJSP (I pointed out tax advantages, and how financially the owner(s) would be lots better off $$$ by donating) they still want only to sell. c'est la poop, Jack
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 27, 2008 21:13:22 GMT -5
Breaking News: Pope Papers did not sell!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 28, 2008 6:22:59 GMT -5
I thought you were taking care of that, Jack.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 28, 2008 11:19:16 GMT -5
Not unless somebody who wants to donate them to NJSP guarantees my loan. My deal was to give time so that someone else wouldn't buy them. Maybe I'll just buy 'em. The drawing of Pope would look nice on the wall next to my atomic clock. I bought that clock thinking I might be able to convert it into an atomic bomb that I could rig up to the door to my house - you know, to protect the house. Oh, I'd have a sign to warn everybody "do not enter - nuclear explosion will immediately occur." But FYI the atomic clock cannot be converted into an atomic bomb.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 28, 2008 20:36:41 GMT -5
Maybe just a sign would work to protect my house. WARNING - DO NOT ENTER - ATOMIC CLOCK!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 2, 2008 12:58:11 GMT -5
Owner wants 5 cash for the Papers.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 3, 2008 6:47:49 GMT -5
5 what, Jack? Dollars I hope.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 3, 2008 20:15:24 GMT -5
HaHa - 5K
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jul 4, 2008 7:00:57 GMT -5
5 K!!
For what? A few notes and a bunch of envelopes? Oh, I forgot the mystery cloth. That must be the golden egg. The guy must be on drugs.
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Post by Michael on Jul 5, 2008 8:55:07 GMT -5
It had taken Mrs. Lindbergh and Betty Gow together to open the window the afternoon of the kidnapping. The window was opened for the fireman, but he was not able to carry a thirty pound bundle out of the window and reach the top rung of the ladder. If he could not do it, how cold a kidnapper?
Mr. Pope and Captain Walsh, after the trial, went to the Lindbergh home and with a magnifying glass attempted to find chisel marks or marks of any sort indicating that the window had been forced open. Mr. Pope asserted in an interview with the author that no matter how little tampering is done with wood, a tell-tale mark is left behind. A magnifying glass will reveal these marks if hidden to the eye. Captain Walsh and Mr. Pope found no such marks on the nursery window sill supposedly wedged open by the kidnapper, the only accessible entry point other then the back stairs.
The import of Mr. Pope's whole investigation was that he believed the ladder was left near the Lindbergh home as a decoy to preclude certain servants from any part in the kidnapping. His theory was that the baby was taken down the back stairs..... [From George Hawke's Interview of Fred Pope, March 23, 1951] cache.viewimages.com/xc/3207573.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=C037F202D99E3099F93B7800BFB25679A55A1E4F32AD3138
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jul 5, 2008 18:33:26 GMT -5
Michael, there seem to be a couple of questions Pope was looking to answer in this excerpt. As far as the question of marks on the window relating to forced entry and Anne and Betty's apparent difficulty to slide the lower window up from the inside, I don't see any evidence of the same test being done from the outside. I do know this style of window can be finnicky at times, binding easily and then suddenly sliding effortlessly. Maybe Kevin can add something here.
Yeah, I love the mystery cloth, Kevin. But who knows, maybe it's part of the snot rag deposited by the stoop-shouldered man who walked with a sailor's gait at St. Raymonds... or could it even be another piece of the child's petticoat Betty used for the homemade nightshirt? Answers to these spellbinding questions might well be within the hands of anyone willing to cough up a measly 5 grand. I can just hear the comments. Murray Bleefeld: "When I saw it, the my hair stood on end!" Mickey Rosner: "One glimpse and I turned white and started trembling something awful. I was rushed to New York with state troopers riding shotgun!"
To whoever it may concern: This stuff should interest no one from a personal collection standpoint at a price north of $50. Donate it to the NJSP museum.
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