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Post by rick3 on Apr 1, 2008 3:05:49 GMT -5
How many graphic representations of the symbol/signature have you seen over the years? All the ones I observed redrawn in the NYTimes, Readers Digest, Walshes Jersey Journal, Wallers book jacket and "the Hole in the Hauptmann Case" were missing the two little squiggles? Why was that? Whered they go? The person or persons that went to the trouble of copying and drawing the real Symbol never once forgot to include them? Four favorite comments of mine about the Symbol: - "...the symbols were made by the same instrument and that the writer of these notes was probably of German and Hebrew extraction." Albert Osborne in: Bungling the Lindbergh Case by Al Dunlap page 59. So....whats the Hebrew refer to--eg Hebrew letters?
- "Was the Symbol intended to identify the kidnapper to Lindbergh? Was it the recognition symbol of a secret society? This raises a possibilty--no more: For it is known that certain college fraternities, rather like the Masons, employ such symbols on their correspondence>" William Norris page 15. [BUT on this same page Norris gets it 100% wrong--the square holes are NOT in the centers of the circles--the yods are!]
- "It is the sign of the Mafia"--JFC [which Mafia: Jewish or Italian?]
- "The symbol was copied"--handwiritten note-- AG Wilintz
So we are left with three choices:
- The squiggles could be the German SS sigrunes or thunderbolts of Thor as shown on Ronelles Hoax Board?The Nazi swastika is the runic symbol for Thor's hammer, also symbol of the Earth Mother, and the runic S symbol was used by the SS, the Nazi secret police. - but here they are paired.
www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/high%20fields.html
- The squiggles represent the Hebrew letter "yod" meaning "hand" or caballistic phallus in Masonry? This letter is also central to the ineffable name of God, unspoken, in Hebrew--YHWH or Jehovah or Yahweh? They are common as point in circle in French masonry.
www.themasonictrowel.com/books/the_square_and_compasses_falconer/files/chapter_26.htm
- Or the squiggles just could represent occult snakes, spermatazoa, fish in water or eg "other swimmers".
Nevertheless-- they are often omitted or left out and thus so easily overlooked and discounted? Why is that? They were there on the original ransom notes. Who decided to omit them?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 1, 2008 6:38:27 GMT -5
Why are they drawn so differently if they are so important? Are you suggesting that Hauptmann was a member of the Schutzstaffel? I am not even sure the sig runes were commonly known as the insignia of the Schutzstaffel in early 1932 America. - Why can't they be just an additional flourish for the unique aspect of the "singnature"?
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 1, 2008 9:38:54 GMT -5
Werent these symbols featured in the book that a "John Condon" checked out from the library? That came up at trial. Jafsie questioned but it was not pursued . As it should have been. Like most things in this case not pursued as they should have been .
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 1, 2008 10:38:29 GMT -5
Rick~~Recently someone posted something about Hauptmann and someone else studying blueprints of Highfields. It clicked with something which had been hanging in the edge of my mind for a long time. Enclosed in an old family Bible (pubdate1832) was (and I hope still is) a hand-drawn picture of a house, next to which is drawn two overlapping circles.This, I take to show direction of the sun rising in relation to how the house will sit. So this is how house plans and overlapping circles came together for me. Is there something standard in architecture about showing sunrise direction(?) Just a thought.
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 1, 2008 11:11:25 GMT -5
Mairi, I don't know if theres anything to this, but it sure SOUNDS brilliant! My brother in laws a retired contracter, I can ask him if no contracters or architects on here respond.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 1, 2008 11:19:18 GMT -5
(maybe already posted.) Wasn't the book Condon (allegedly) checked out on Theosophy?
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Post by rick3 on Apr 1, 2008 11:44:21 GMT -5
Mairi--I dont think so/ I recall Walter Winchell reported that Jafsie Condon had checked out a book on "Symbols". As with each and every lead in the LKH it was debunked? Or just summarily dismissed and discounted without cause.
As for the occult interlocking circles or "vesica piscis" it is most commonly associated with free-masonry, and Mary Magdalene....maybe as in Mary Magdalene Cerrita? Just another coincidence/
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 1, 2008 12:42:58 GMT -5
Weird you say that, Mairi. I was just wondering not so long go if Birritttella Church was based on Blavatsky principles of Theosophy. Very fashionable in those years. Very Russian.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 1, 2008 14:10:02 GMT -5
Dena and Mairi--yes that is absolutely correct! My bad--I forgot the connection or origin of Theosophy by Madaam Blavatsky. This is an excellent leading to the occult and the vesica piscis! And the N.S.D.A.P! In one of Blavatskys books, possibly Isis Unveiled, is a section describing the secret origin and meaning of the vesica piscis and gematria. "As above as is below" and "point in the circle". Mary Cerrita may have known or read all this: "Moving up from the fourth to the third level puts us in a very different atmosphere—that of Tri-Unity. At the beginning of creation, Brahma (masculine; the initial circle with central point) projects outward a perfect reflection of himself (second circle with central point; the female aspect, Vach) which latter produces the Son, Viraj—a recreation of Brahma himself from within the vesica piscis, ( bladder of the fish). (The Secret Doctrine I, Page 89; Isis Unveiled II, Pages 170, 268, 270) This almond-shaped area, the “mouth” symbol from the Egyptians, also represents Hiranyagarba—the womb (radiant or golden egg), the portal through which the universe is formed." www.esotericastrologer.org/EAauthorEssays/EAessaysJL.htm
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 1, 2008 16:05:11 GMT -5
Why would a kidnapper/extortionist want to make a "singnature" which would identify themselves? You might as well sign your name. If the "singnature" was a symbol of an organization why didn't the creator ( I am assuming you are not of the belief that it's Hauptmann's hand) take the time to make an ink block as opposed to fooling around with ink caps and corks? Doesn't the process of making the circles with relation to the holes give some insight into the person behind it and the situation under which it was created?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 1, 2008 18:56:34 GMT -5
Kevin~~How are you meaning something of the occult would tip off someone's identity? It could apply to a godzmillion people, I'd say, including those who don't subscribe to it but who simply have read about it or run across symbols. I may just be having the proverbial "senior moment".. ..., but would you mind clarifying.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 1, 2008 19:33:16 GMT -5
Mairi, what I mean is why would you as the note writer include anything obviously relative to yourself when making essentially a nom de guerre? The only way this makes sense to me is if it is meant to deceive by casting suspicion elsewhere. But our ransom symbol is obscure which makes that possibility seem slight. If the squiggles, for example, were actual sig runes side by side then an allusion to the Schutzstaffel would be clear. If you are asking specifically about something occult in nature going on here, I plead ignorance.
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 1, 2008 19:41:00 GMT -5
It was such the rage in those days. As esoteric & flat out weird as it seems now, it wasnt in those days. I have done a little research into this and was frankly surprised to see how almost mainstream these "spiritualist" churches were in those days.
I havent read a Blavatsky book in years but now Im curious. Rick, were the symbols part of Theosophy belief?
And Kev, if this was part of those peoples world, they might not have thought what they were doing was so identifiable maybe. IT truly was startling how many people were into the spiritualist movement. From what i gather, although considered occult like now, astrology etc, wasn't considered so occultish in the 1920's & 30's. That is a commonly held belief now, but it wasn't in those days.
Rick, was the Birrittella church based upon the Blavatsky principles? I sure wish I could find out more about their church. Info has been hard to come by. I have read (maybe in FBI report) that Mary Cerrita was also referred to as the "Mary Magdalene".
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Post by rick3 on Apr 2, 2008 5:53:21 GMT -5
Dena and Mairi--well, I think we have come full circle by accident? I had no reason to suspect at the outset that we would end up back at the Temple of Divine Power? I thought, based on JFCs thoughts, that we might just as easily ended up at the Purple Gang and rumrunners? (red and blue makes violet) It was such the rage in those days. As esoteric & flat out weird as it seems now, it wasnt in those days. I have done a little research into this and was frankly surprised to see how almost mainstream these "spiritualist" churches were in those days. I havent read a Blavatsky book in years but now Im curious. Rick, were the symbols part of Theosophy belief? And Kev, if this was part of those peoples world, they might not have thought what they were doing was so identifiable maybe. IT truly was startling how many people were into the spiritualist movement. From what i gather, although considered occult like now, astrology etc, wasn't considered so occultish in the 1920's & 30's. That is a commonly held belief now, but it wasn't in those days. Rick, was the Birrittella church based upon the Blavatsky principles? I sure wish I could find out more about their church. Info has been hard to come by. I have read (maybe in FBI report) that Mary Cerrita was also referred to as the "Mary Magdalene". If the Symbol (eg vesica) does attach to the Temple then its clearly a central issue if we account for Blavatsky. The four Hebrew letters of God are spelled out by the Vesica: Yod-He-Vau-He! This is a pretty big deal--sometimes referred to as the secret of secrets: - The primordial point is a circle = Yod
- the circle squaring itself becomes the quaternary = He
- the perfect square having each of the four letters = Vau
(Isis Unveiled--The Sacred Tetragram--page 506)
- “The printing around the circumference is TET RAG RAM MAT ON, this represents the most powerful & unspeakable name of GOD. Which translated to ancient Hebrew is pronounced YOD HE VAU HE”
www.slaad.com/2005/01/03/unknown-symbols
Although Agent Wilson assigned O'rourke to spy on the Temple I have not seen any reports. Maybe we can assume with seances on the agenda weekly--that there is spiritlualism, mysticism and the occult on the table. Looks like Theosophy to me?
Oh yes, the Table. Now all we need to find is the Mersman so that Mary or Peter or some other attender at the Temple can punch those 3 holds!
Kevin--except for Mickey Rosner who turned pale and shook violently when he saw the Symbol, noone recognized it for 75 years?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 2, 2008 6:29:43 GMT -5
Very well, Rick. Now all you have to do is figure out why a German carpenter is writing on the Temple of Divine Power stationary with occult symbolism. That shouldn't be too hard.
"Is it nessisery to make a word's affair out off it?"
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 2, 2008 6:50:13 GMT -5
Or a German fur cutter named Fisch.....Or a German somebody else (who brought their own stationary .......or an "un-german" writing a fake German note...........hmm-mm-m and the beat goes on. ~the singnature could have a personal meaning to the writer ~the singnature could have no meaning other than a clever design he/she noticed somewhere. ~the writer could have embellished/doubled up on one circle he/she saw somewhere. Frankly I'm more interested in his emphasis on "dem 3 holes".
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 2, 2008 8:02:53 GMT -5
Mairi, let me ask you do what you think about those holes? Why are they made prior to the circles and mentioned after? Why such concern for identification? Isn't the unique circle pattern enough? I guess from my perspective you have to look at those notes as an integral of the whole. The writing, the language, the paper, the holes, the folds, the ink, the circles, the squiggles and the holes are all components that must be considered together. I have a real problem looking at only one element without regard to all of the others.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 2, 2008 22:21:16 GMT -5
I agree with you in part. I think each component needs scrutiny in of itself, as well as then drawing them together for a look. The three holes have my attention right now and especially since the writer seemed to use them as the strongest indicator of writer recognition. Is it correct that the holes in ALL notes aligned exactly if one laid them in a carefully evened stack? If so then maybe that's the reason why(?)___ I still think of a "pre-clipboard" clipboard thingy, (with nails or spikes) likely homemade, such as one might use for receipts/orders, etc. Oh well. I don't believe in the Lone Wolf version of the case. I also believe Condon falsely ID'd Hauptmann as CJ (as did Cal with his "earwitness" malarkey)
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 2, 2008 23:37:26 GMT -5
Mairi, I still am trying to see if I can get ahold of Condons will to see if he left a Mersman table to his longtime companion, Al Reich.
LOL Im only kidding.
Partly.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 3, 2008 1:42:07 GMT -5
Kevin/Mairi--I agree the holes are part of the whole package--no pun intended. What about this--isnt a ransom note traditionally supposed to imply some kind of threat? Or invoke the fear of God, in the mind of the reader? Maybe the holes could represent all the bullet holes or lead the mob is pumping into each other and the public in 1932? - So if one circle is Anne(?) and the other CAL(?) then the son Charlie in-between catches a bullet and there is blood (red) around it? Thats scary on a visceral level.
- So the intuitive message is--if you dont pay the ransom then Charlie will be shot and killed? Simple as that? So pay fast!
- Lastly, what is the "time-line" that Birritella and Cerrita are working off of?
- Rosner sees the Nursery Note maybe Wednesday, shudders, and takes it to New York City to show around to the Mob?
- Is there sufficient time for the gang (THEY) to get wind of this AND send B and C to Princeton Junction on Sunday March 6th to tell Rosner, Breckenridge, Galvin and Fogarty that on either Monday or Tuesday morning Breckenbridge will recieve another Symbolled note in his office at 9am?
- Thats a pretty tight time line "THEY" are working under?
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 3, 2008 1:46:19 GMT -5
While on the subject of Theosophy, I find it interesting that CAL was asked on the stand if he knew that Condon had been a teacher of Theosophy for twenty years. When CAL wqas asked if HE (cal) knew anything about Theosophy he replied "very little".
I sure as heck didnt know this. And if it is NOT accurate, where in the world world would this have come from? Seems too coincidental to be just a question arbitarily thrown in there.
If accurate, twenty years is a pretty long time to be involved in the Theosophy movement. I would think that if Jafsie had been involved for that length of time , and living in NY as he did, he might have even met Helena Blavatsky herself. A Russian.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 3, 2008 2:30:40 GMT -5
Dena--Bravo! Bellisimo! If true this connects JFC to the Temple of Divine Power and Mary Cerrita. Also, someone wrote a letter, which MM sent me, stating that Jafsie Condon used the Vesica Pisces symbol in his lectures at Fordom University on Euclidian Geometry and often put it up onto the blackboard! Check and mate! Do you have a date and reference for the Theosophy inquiry? Was it Reilly asking the question? In Flemington?
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 3, 2008 2:34:24 GMT -5
I have been doing some more research into this Theosophy . Also, they are STILL around, believe it or not. Although many groups have splintered off from the original. Appparently they had some sort of fascination with the Aryan race. hmmm. One of Lindberghs big passions as well. I found some info on Theosophy & its ties to the NDSAP: It started in 1875, when the Theosophical Society was created in New York. The TS was orgainized by Madame H.P. Blavatsky, Colonel Henry Steel Olcott (U.S. army, retired, and a writer for the New York Daily Graphic), and Charles Sotheran (an author, socialist, and a Freemason Supreme Council member of the Scottish Rite). The TS grew rapidly and soon after became international. Theosophical writings of Annie Besant, Charles Leadbeater, and Helena Blavatsky, were translated and published in Germany. An 1892 periodical, Lotus Blossoms, featured Blavatsky's writings and "was the first German publication to sport the theosophical swastika upon its cover" (Goodrick-Clarke:25). As time went on numerous other Theosophy-based groups of occult socialism formed in Germany and Austria via Guido von List and Jorg Lanz von Liebenfels and Julius Streicher and others. Several of these groups would provide the philosophical framework for National Socialism in Germany. Blavatsky used the swastika extensively, incorporating it into the seal of The Theosophy Society As early 1875, Blavatsky’s famous personal seal employed a swastika symbol and promoted the swastika throughout the TS (Jinarajadasa, p. 19 with the heading ‘H.P.B.'s Seal in 1875’ and The Theosophist, August 1931, p. 645). The swastika is the top-most symbol of seven symbols, and the swastika is placed underneath a royal crown and directly atop another central symbol, a hexagram (six points), with the other six symbols in a circular arrangement around the six points. Blavatsky's seal also employs alphabetic symbolism in the form of Blavatsky's initials in the center of the seal. The swastika that Blavatsky used is unusual because it is exactly like the swastika adopted later by the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSGWP) and otherwise known as "the socialist swastika" : The swastika sits on a point (it is turned 45 degrees to the horizontal) and the arms point clockwise. Another example of similar alphabetic symbolism is that the Theosophical Society also used a snake in the shape of an "S" wrapped around a capital letter "T" for "Theosophical Society." It is further proof of Dr. Curry's work that in 1939 (when the National Socialist German Workers' Party joined as allies with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to invade Poland in a pact to divide up Europe, spreading WWII), Arundale converted "The Adyar News" into "The Theosophical World" and he chose a swastika symbol that pointed counterclockwise, and that swastika symbol also showed Arundale's understanding that the earlier TS swastika had represented two separate overlapping "S" letters for "socialism." When this was written the international headquarters of the Theosophical Society was still listed as Adyar, India. During Blavatsky's time in the USA, the swastika became a widely popular symbol. It was also known as the crooked cross, Hakenkreuz (hooked cross), twisted cross, etc. The TS dogma included oddball theories about superior races, superior societies, a "Great White Brotherhood" of masters, sub races, and seven primary root races, including the "Aryan" race, which Blavatsky described as superior to some other "races" (Cf. H. P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine 1:642; G. de Purucker, Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy,. 294-5; also "The Root-Race and Its Sub-Divisions," Studies in Occult Philosophy, pp. 35-9). See image at rexcurry.net/theosophy-ocean-aryan-press-william-judge1893.JPG
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 3, 2008 2:59:49 GMT -5
Well, if this just isnt the cats meow. I found this excerpt in book out of the Theosophy library:
"Four hundred years have passed since Paracelsus lived and taught. During those centuries many pathologists, chemists, homeopathists and magnetic healers have quenched their thirst for knowledge in his books. Some writers have given him full credit for the discovery of nitrogen, hydrogen and the occult powers of the magnet. Others have denounced him as a quack and charlatan while secretly plagiarizing from his works. Only a few physicians of the present day are aware that Paracelsus taught the primal causes of all diseases affecting mankind; that he unveiled the secret link between psychology and physiology; that he used electromagnetism three hundred years before it was "discovered" by Oersted; that he had a School of Magnetic Healing long before Mesmer's School was established; that it was Paracelsus and not Pasteur who had the real secret of microbes which is contained in the Theosophical theory of the "Preservers and Destroyers." But the tide is now beginning to change. In the 1936 meeting of the American Chemical Society, Dr. Herman Seydel declared that the changed outlook in modern scientific investigation is due to an ever-increasing attention to the principles outlined by this "greatest of all revolutionaries in the history of medicine." Dr. Alexis Carrel now admits the Paracelsian theory that man must be studied as a whole. Perhaps the time is not far off when other exponents of the noble science of healing will be willing to admit with Paracelsus that...blah blah "
Apparently even Lindberghs HERO the great Dr Carrell was into Theosophy. Or at least I am assuming he must have been since he is mentioned in their "Great Theosophists". I'm pretty sure one must be a Theosophist to get into their "Great Theosophists" book though.
The plot thickens. I feel like Scooby Doo saying "Hyuhhh?
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dena
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Post by dena on Apr 3, 2008 3:19:47 GMT -5
FRom Australian Theosophical Society:
"Charles Lindbergh, the first aviator to cross the Atlantic from New York to Paris, met angels in their own realm, more or less. Sea fog crept across his field of vision, skimming the clouds in the moonless night. Needing to remain alert, he thought he saw translucent, weightless human forms with human voices, in the clouds, vanishing and appearing at will through the walls of the fuselage, advising him on the flight, his navigation, offering reassurance, and “messages of importance unattainable in ordinary life”."
Seems as if Theosophists hold CAL in very high esteem. I have found several others references as well. I find that fascinating. In addition to being weird.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2008 8:07:35 GMT -5
There is a certainly no shortage of multi-ethnic participation in this course. Irish, Italian, German, Hebrew, Catholic, Mystic, and probably some I have missed. Do you all think the notes reflect this? Does that "singnature" really appear "threatening"? Does it appear professional in it's execution? The Nursery note looks less well done than the others to me. does anyone else think so? If so, why would that be? Why wouldn't an "organization" do what organizations do best, standardize? Why is each note a little different? Finally, why if the notes are a product of some mystic church group do they not contain any hint of whatever religion this church is founded on? Why no mystical terms of allusions? Just asking.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 3, 2008 11:10:22 GMT -5
Dena/ Mairi--I found two fascinating announcements for The Theosophical Society in the Oakland Tribune (June 26th 1930): - 1. Under the auspices fo the Oakland Theosophical Society, Sunday June 28 @ 8:00 pm Geofrey Hodson, lecturer, author and research worker will give his second address in the South Room of Hotel Oakland: "The Clairvoyant Study of Fairies, Nature Spirits and Devas".
- 2. The Theosophical Society, Lodge No. 4, Public meeting every Friday 8:00pm at Madison Street Temple , 1432 Madison Street, Cor. 13th Reading Room opens Friday afternoon 3-8:00pm. Free Library. All Welcome.
- Both of these have the feeling of the Temple of Divine Power under discussion in Harlem.
- Kevin--if you read Gardner's account, something about the ransom notes seemed to threaten both Mickey Rosner and Owney Madden? Rosner turned pale and trembled violently when he saw one, while Owney "The Killer" Madden said "Please in the name of God, if another ransom note comes in--dont show me any more of those notes--I dont need to see them"? Maybe they saw something we can't see? TCTND page 45.
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Post by Michael on Apr 3, 2008 16:47:12 GMT -5
It was pursued Dena. The card was at the Court House as was John Condax of Philadelphia who said he had been the one who checked out the book. However, I believe Condon had books like this in his own personal library.... I see if I run across a report to back this up while I look up the other stuff....
Is there anything tangible that connects the two?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2008 17:05:35 GMT -5
I guess I was asking if you or anyone else feels there something threatening about them? I still find these notes to be most lacking in the threat category. Even the symbol or "singnature" seems benign to me. As I see it if there is any intent to threaten by the use of it I think it is relative only to the creator. Maybe it's just me, but how many of you feel menaced by this symbol?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 3, 2008 19:42:35 GMT -5
I don't feel threatened by the symbol, because I don't know what it means. Can't R/O it may have seemed ominous to someone else. "organization? professional? standardize?" Don't know what that means either (as it applies to the ransom notes) Or why it's supposed to. I remain puzzled as to why the wording in the notes conveyed no threats, (at least in my view). They struck me as nigh on to polite. There is the serious event of the child disappearing, but notes which almost give an impression of "Oh, incidentally-may I please have a portion of ransom, before I send the child back home to bed?" As to no religious allusion-none in the notes that I can see. There was something pretty darned spooky about the Fisch look-a-like who showed up in Breck's office speaking of "Science is more important than life" (or something along those lines). Makes me want to throw Carrel and his beliefs back into the pot of "persons of interest"! Though I know little to nothing about Theosophy, they had that "superior beings " thing like Carrel. The "Divine Temple" crew may have been edged into the side door of same, for all we know. The Theosophists (I caught just a glimmer in my scant reading of it) had a circle with a hole in it (the singnature had double of same), standing for something along the lines of the sun being eternal. Exploring threads which may wiggle around in all that , I find not only quite interesting, but quite allowable at that . Hope your trip was a good one, Michael. Glad you're back.
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