dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 19, 2008 12:48:58 GMT -5
I wanted to start a thread dealing specifically with the baby & his enviroment . Baby in nursery, furniture in nursery etc. Michael, let me know if belongs in another thread regarding this & I can incorporate it there. I looked but could not find one dealing with the baby while alive. Does anyone else find it strange that in addition to the undisturbed tinker toy & suitcase, that there was a beer stein sitting on the window sill apparently undisturbed? Why would the Lindberghs have a beer stein sitting in the baby's room? And if it had been sitting on the sill, why wouldnt this have been knocked over with all of the apparent awkwardness in taking the baby out the window? wouldnt it have made sense for a kidnapper to have set the beer stein aside because it would only make sense that if accidently knocked off the crash would make noise. Or was this beer stein not in that posistion during the kidnapping? And if not, who or why placed on the sill for a photo? And what good would it have possible done to pin Charlie down to the bedding if the bedding had not been secured? Or was the famous picture of the crib taken after the bedding had been removed when the investigation had begun? Was the baby pinned to the mattress? Because I see no sheets nor mattress pad on the crib mattress. But maybe already removed. But why are blankets left on mattresss then? Something else that has been bothering me is the high chair next to the crib. I suppose that every aspect of child care could have occurred in the nursey. But doesnt it make more sense that the baby would have been fed in the kitchen where the food would have been easier to heat, keep warm etc? Perhaps with the very wealthy it was the norm for every little thing to occur in the nursey. Was the baby always fed in the nursery? Im going to get out Betty's statements & reread "hour of gold/lead" again, but something about this high chair right next to the crib does not ring true to me. The potty chair, yes. Belonged in the nursery. But the high chair next to crib seems...I dont know WHAT it seems. It seems sort of posed maybe. Im looking for other photos of nursery besides the window & crib photos. Could the highchair have been moved next to the crib specifically just for the photo? Anyone else think something wrong with this nursery setup? And this is addition to the fact that why would this baby not have proper clothing? When in Northhaven Maine with the baby didnt Betty also have to make him more homemade clothing? They didnt anticpate the need to have clothing in all sizes for a growing baby? Of all the strange things for such a wealthy family to be cheap about. Anne was young & off flying often. But why would Mrs Morrow (who had had 4 kids) not think of this? Because I think the Morrow side did care about children deeply as witnessed by the school they started. And why not name the baby when born? This I find the strangest of all. Were his parents trying to remain detached from him somehow by not naming him? They knew they were having a baby before he came along so they didnt choose any names at all when AML was pregnant? And why were there no current photos of the baby? And I have heard (but not confirmed) that even BEFORE the baby disappeared there were "rumors"that something was wrong with him. Were any of these rumors ever traced to their source? But I find it interesting that even before the LK there was talk of how he had something wrong with him. This just seems a really odd thing to say about him. The reason I think that the baby & his enviroment are important BEFORE he disappeared is because I have been reading about what is called "victimolgy". And according to profilers the victim's life IS important to the central part of the case. Nothing more annoying than an "armchair profiler" I know. lol But in all seriousness I do think it important to discuss this baby & how his life was lived & his health & the people that were part of his world during the short time he had.
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 21, 2008 0:12:49 GMT -5
I just thought of something. It might seem a bit off the wall but probably no more so than the tales told by Jafsie, so bear with me. And actually the more I think about this, the more sense it makes.
This suddenly occurred to me as I was trying to track down Frederick Hahn's restaurant but could only find a "Han's Bavarian Beer Garden". I'm not saying it was related at all-just that this was what I was doing when I thought of it.
That beer stein sitting on the window sill has bothered me for years. And not just because it should have been knocked over during entry or exit. It is so unnatural. So incongruous. So glaringly out of place. Esp for such a proper family who so closely adhered to the conventions of their social class. It did not FIT in that room.
But what if the beer stein did not 'fit' because it had not been in the nursery to begin with?
But had been LEFT there by a bootlegger as some sort of signal/warning/clew/indicator etc of who had taken the baby?
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
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Post by Joe on Mar 21, 2008 9:37:49 GMT -5
Dena, I wonder if there was a similar set up for the child at Englewood. You seem to be implying the child was removed from the family mainstream by design. By all accounts he seems to have had the run of the kitchen and surroundings, often running around there with Wahgoosh and that it seemed a matter of practice to take him to his room for dinner. It would be interesting to know if this had anything to do with the Victorian principles of child raising, possibly more in well-to-do families that still seemed to hold sway at the time. I'd think there would be many still around today who lived through the times and might be able to provide a bit more of a consensus picture.
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 21, 2008 10:29:12 GMT -5
Upon further scrutiny I also have realized that what I thought was a high chair was actually the potty chair. I had never seen a potty chair like that. It looks just like a high chair. And yes, I would love to know what the setup at the Englewood nursery was like. And have PHOTOS. But no, Im not implying the child was not included by design. It just is so odd to me to not feed him closer to the kitchen. It seems nonsensical. But this could have been the norm for those days. Every single little aspect of childrens lives took place in the nursery proper. I too believe this was most likely left over from those Victorian principles of what was right & wrong. Of what was proper & what was improper.
By itself, I also realize this might mean nada. But perhaps in the haste to ONLY examine the why's & whats of the baby' disappearance, we are missing something. Because even if it is not referred to as "profiling" I know that it IS standard procedure now to examine the life of the victims closely now too.
Good idea about perspectives from someone who lived through these times. Any people who grew up during this era out there that can provide more insights into exactly what happened in nurseries? Perhaps someones mother or grandma had been a nanny or nurse in the home of a wealthy family & knows some stories that could shed light on this?
But Joe, wouldn't those same residual principles from the Victorian era of what was proper & what was not, also be expressed when it came to nursery decor? Because a beer stein was a very out of place object to have sitting on the window sill in this nursery. And this is all apart from the fact it was not disturbed upon entry or exit.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
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Post by Joe on Mar 21, 2008 15:48:08 GMT -5
The beer stein has always puzzled me as it does seem out of place in a child's room. But I think if it were left as a calling card, it would have been identified as such by Lindbergh and the police and not just noted as another item in the room. In Trooper Wolf's Major Initial Report, he does say it was found on the left side of the window sill and also describes it as an antique. Perhaps a family heirloom dating back to Ola Mannson or more likely, one of the Morrow Clan? Here's a bit of speculation about the sound Lindbergh heard shortly after nine pm. I've often wondered if the kidnapper saw by flashlight, the items in his way as he entered the nursery window, the beer stein and the roof of the toy ark on the black leather suitcase, ever carefully avoiding them as he made his way in. Once inside and as he continued towards the crib, which he immediately found in the beam of his flashlight, his attention diverted from his previous care, he totally missed the small wooden table and chairs and ran into them, knocking over one of the pieces, which he then instinctively out of pure nervous energy, righted back into position. A possibility?
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 21, 2008 20:48:26 GMT -5
So....in his spare time Trooper Wolf was a conniseur of antique German beer Steins?
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Post by Michael on Mar 22, 2008 8:07:56 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with a Stein being there but I do see it as a potential problem for someone who needs that window as a entry point when considering everything else that is in their way to include the darkness.....
According to Lanphier: Beneath the window was a chest with a "black bag" on top of it, and a "wholly dog" on top of that.
According to Keaton: In front of the window where the note had been left were a long low cedar chest and a medium size suitcase. These were pushed up against the radiator and towards the right side of the window as you face it. A Child's tinker toy was lying on the floor nearby. This toy had been on top of the suitcase at one time, and it has never been definitely determined whether it was laid aside by the kidnaper or by someone of the household.
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mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Mar 25, 2008 19:13:13 GMT -5
Hi Dena, Am glad you started this thread. The baby 's nursery life (highfields) has always seemed rather odd to me. I guess it was a larger nursery/nursery suite(?) at Englewood. One of the photos I saw-maybe the bookcover/Gardner-showed what seemed to be the sunlamp attached to head of crib with electrical cord running down right at the crib post. As you have mentioned, it is hard to know just when things were where. Strikes me as a real safety hazard, right there in the baby's reach. Also read somewhere that the sunlamp was relocated promptly after the event. The nursery seemed quite the obstacle course, if indeed the ladder perp actually entered it. (I wobble on whether I think there was inside help who handed the child out through the window.) One of the window photos had it looking like a smaller window than I would have expected. Feel sure someone on the forum knows the exact measurements. Then, too, all the things up under the inside of the window add to the difficulty I have with the perp climbing over it all and then back out with the child. Also what's with the "heater" Betty turned on when she went to check the child(?) Was this referring to a radiator? In either case it worries me about a child seeming to spend so much time in a small crammed up room. A couple of things Betty said when interviewed seem somewhat odd, too. The child ran around the kitchen table several times, she "took him by the hand" to go upstairs- oh, and that he ''spoke to" Elsie. Almost sounds over-staging as to how normal the child was(?) What was the relevance of those remarks-especially in light of how much of the interviewing seemed to have been blocked(?) One other thing which sounds strange--Betty said when she couldn't hear the child breathing, she felt all around for him. Yet it's also said the covers were still "mounded up" In all the photos I've seen of the baby (save one with a smile) he doesn't strike me as a happy child. How does it seem to you?
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 25, 2008 20:12:16 GMT -5
I think we are on the exact same page, Mairi. In fact, I may as well tell some of our buddies on here to read no further. LOL Im delving for a moment back into a position I still take but temporarily suspended. Although Im so glad I did this because I am seeing things I never saw before when I had my "blinders" on. grin Something is just...odd...about the entire scenario. And yes, it has also seemed overstaged to me stating how often that the baby was "normal". Normal seemed to be overused in relation to this baby. Several articles I found refer to normalcy of this baby. So many references it sends up red flags. Most people think THEIR baby is the smartest, most brilliant clever beautiful baby ever born. Now THATS normal. Its not normal to refer to your baby constantly as "normal". Normal just denotes kind of ho-hum. Im also with you that his hair was combed funny. His curls were laid about his head strangely. You are the one (I think) that noticed how he had several locks of hair that were longer & combed rather strategically. I just found the original newspaper articles from 1931 about the possibility of the baby being deaf. Im trying to learn how to get all this into photo image but it keeeps saying "error file to big". So let me know if you would like these. They are very interesting. In fact, there is one photo of baby a couple of weeks old I had never seen. And then there is the 4 generation photo in which the baby looks like different baby in two diffferent shots. Gown is different too. I wonder if photo of Charlie & Jon were mislabled? And then there is the photo of baby with big smile & very dark hair that looks NOTHING like Charlie. Let me hasten to add I am NOT trying to put a conspiracy spin on this. But I wonder if this was one of CAL's famous "pranks". Putting forward a photo of a different baby? The sunlamp was actually tied/attached to the crib? I have never seen that photo. I just read a story about a baby who had accidently hung himself from a cord attached to his crib though (nothing to do with this case). And why would Betty not turn the light on? As a mom, I think that is just plain stupid. The first thing you need to do is SEE if the baby is in the room. How can SEE in that deserted area with no streetlights? Was there a full moon? Even if there was, this just does not make a lick of sense. It defies credulity to think that she felt this panic yet left the light off. Yet Anne said the light was ON when she came into the room. So if Betty left the light off, yet it was on when Anne came into nursery, wouldnt that mean that somebody was in there between time Betty left to get Anne & Anne entered room? Or did the light fairies turn it on? And what is your take on the beer stein actually remaining untouched on the window sill? Wasnt it also on the side of the sill that the ladder was closest too ? Needless to say, these topics have bothered me for years.
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Post by rmc1971 on Apr 10, 2008 7:01:39 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with a Stein being there but I do see it as a potential problem for someone who needs that window as a entry point when considering everything else that is in their way to include the darkness..... According to Lanphier: Beneath the window was a chest with a "black bag" on top of it, and a "wholly dog" on top of that. According to Keaton: In front of the window where the note had been left were a long low cedar chest and a medium size suitcase. These were pushed up against the radiator and towards the right side of the window as you face it. A Child's tinker toy was lying on the floor nearby. This toy had been on top of the suitcase at one time, and it has never been definitely determined whether it was laid aside by the kidnaper or by someone of the household. The items in front of the window presents a potential problem. I am of the opinion they got around this by not having to enter the room through the window. Either the baby was handed out through the window, or they did not use the ladder at all and used the stairs.
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