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Post by thewoo1 on Jan 31, 2013 19:08:25 GMT -5
just saw a nova program and it stated ladder scraped house on right side of window and showed ladder placement on right side of window. First off position of ladder for entering window should have been placed under sill to enter window. Was hauptmann a south paw? thats how a lefty would work off ladder. I am a fireman and this ladder placement looks dubious. Maybe ladder wasnt used at all.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 31, 2013 19:21:47 GMT -5
There were scrapes on the wall which showed the ladder had been used. There were not secondary scrapes which would have shown twice used, that is up and down. The ladder broke, probably in use which caused the scrapes, but up or down who knows. Don't ask questions about the ladder - last question was five years in answering.
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Post by jack7 on Jan 31, 2013 19:37:22 GMT -5
Ladder placement under window would have been visible from inside house. I've worked ladders lots and it doesn't matter whether you're right or left handed how they work. That is simple obfuscation which that show is trying to promote.
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Post by thewoo1 on Jan 31, 2013 20:05:54 GMT -5
jack what I am saying is not about the operation of the ladder but more importantly how a person works off the ladder. If he is left handed then the placement of the ladder would make sense. Dominate hand strength to open window more easily and entering off that side at least a bit easier. Also jack its march I am assuming window is closed and locked to help keep window sealed up better against cold. Further how do they not know if the window is locked or not. Prying makes noise. I am looking at inside help here.
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Post by Michael on Jan 31, 2013 20:30:35 GMT -5
Thanks for signing up and its good to have your perspective.
To answer your question: He was right handed.
Exactly. The window wasn't locked, therefore it wasn't "sealed" - and to make matters worse the slide bolt on the shutter didn't match up because the shutters were supposedly warped - so they weren't locked either. No signs of prying - just that 3/4" chisel left behind (oops) along side the ladder (just in case they weren't sure where it came from).
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Post by thewoo1 on Jan 31, 2013 21:42:00 GMT -5
thanks michael, My guess he never was on the ladder..if it was positioned on the right..but the marks are not conclusive enough to definitely place it there ..or are they?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Feb 1, 2013 5:06:10 GMT -5
Going back to your original question, as someone who has worked on ladders a lot, and you can ask Kevcon this question too because I'm sure he has - you're not concerned about right or left handedness when you plant the ladder - you just get the job done.
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Post by thewoo1 on Feb 1, 2013 9:20:16 GMT -5
Jack with all due respect I disagee with you. I set a ladder up like you say to get the job done but its placement is going make the job easier. For example if I had to hammer and lean or pry and lean then I would set it up so my dominate hand can work more easily. This is more of a an issue when placing ladder on either side of window. There are issues of leverage, transfer from ladder to and from window especially with baby in hand. What did the BRH do when he found he didnt need a chisel just toss it. Also was a hammer found? Did he bring just a chisel and no hammer,who would do that ? these are just little bits and pieces that lead me to think ,the ladder, chisel were props to cover up an inside job. When props are set up its the little nuances that dont jive.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Feb 1, 2013 17:45:14 GMT -5
Have you ever worked outside in the cold and wind? Worrying about which hand is going to do something is the least of your problems. You become ambidextrous in a hurry. The more important point here is that the ladder was placed beside the window so as not to be seen from inside the house.
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Post by thewoo1 on Feb 1, 2013 18:00:59 GMT -5
Jack for me the more important point was the ladder was a prop..CL jr came out the door well before that ladder was put up. IMO anyway.
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Post by Michael on Feb 1, 2013 19:43:02 GMT -5
Just curious which door do you think was used and which set of stairs to get there?
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Post by jack7 on Feb 1, 2013 22:35:48 GMT -5
Yes and what evidence has there ever been of that happening? If Jr. would have been brought out of the door rather than the window, the footprints would have been from the front of the house rather than from the ladder to the woods, depending on which door you are referring to. Most likely was the front door of which there were no footprints (I understand that the crime scene was obliterated) but of notice, and rear door exit is really questionable.
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Post by jack7 on Feb 1, 2013 22:37:43 GMT -5
Help me Michael - I don't want my name on all this junk.
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Post by Michael on Feb 2, 2013 8:46:40 GMT -5
I am curious to hear what he thinks because its something that comes up a lot. Since Lindbergh expressed belief in Curtis's story, and it involved both a Servant and a Door, then I think its important to hear those theories involving both.
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Post by thewoo1 on Feb 2, 2013 9:07:47 GMT -5
All I am saying from the accounts I have read was there was a lack of signs in the room that entry was made from the window. Investigators were surprised at lack of evidence. No mud, furniture not moved, tinkertoy in place. My point is that something happened that just doesnt add up. Usually when evidence is planted mistakes are made. I just dont think the ladder was used. Sorry if I was unclear.
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Post by rmc1971 on Feb 2, 2013 21:12:10 GMT -5
Have you ever worked outside in the cold and wind? Worrying about which hand is going to do something is the least of your problems. You become ambidextrous in a hurry. The more important point here is that the ladder was placed beside the window so as not to be seen from inside the house. I know that with me being left handed, I personally would probably be able to get the window open, but wouldn't have the balance to get in and out of the house. I understand what the original poster was getting at.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Feb 3, 2013 2:02:21 GMT -5
Well I have worked outside in cold and wind and carrying ladders around and the least of my worries was which hand I would be working with. Placement of the ladder in this situation was much more important.
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Post by thewoo1 on Feb 3, 2013 12:45:03 GMT -5
Ok here is my thinking on this. I have been a career firefighter for 33 yrs . We train the men on doing exactly as you said ( position is the key for what job you are doing) If we are venting we place the ladder on either side of window depending on wind. For removing a person underneath sill. if wind is not a factor we work off the side of window that is the easiest to work off. This includes entering and exiting window and using tools. That placement of the ladder was in a better position for a left handed person to be better balanced. Now after some additional posts I see what is being said about positioning the ladder to avoid detection which makes much more sense as that is the number one priority. Now that being said without being inside ( position of furniture, normal walking paths inside house etc) how could one be sure where to place ladder. There are so many strange things that dont add up with everthing that I can't take anything on face value. From Condon to Lindbergh and all the mysterious events.
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Post by Michael on Feb 3, 2013 13:35:48 GMT -5
I think you are right but I think Kevin's point in the other thread is reasonable enough. I think it would be what you are most comfortable with.
However, let's consider a number of variables.....
The Nova Show had a ladder experiment in which a Fireman was able to go both in and out. The experiment showed the stucco was a factor most people who have studied this case never considered. With this in mind, would someone have blindly discovered this or would they have known in advance? Does it still mean only 2 sections were used - when 3 were built? Was it blind luck they immediately proceeded to the Nursery Window without leaving any prints walking to it?
In short - was this a "planned" event? If so, then information had to be accumulated in advance of this crime.
I've seen the explanation that this ladder could have been used by a right handed person but they planned to place it where they did because of Lindbergh's vantage point while sitting at his desk in the Den. Did they plan for that or was it because he was sitting there at the time?
Or, in the alternative, there was no planning and the ladder was simple placed where it was as a matter of luck. A Golden BB - of which there had to be many.
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Post by wolf2 on Feb 3, 2013 14:30:53 GMT -5
mike, what do you mean about the stucco?
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Post by kevkon on Feb 3, 2013 14:53:00 GMT -5
To be more accurate, an over 50yr old volunteer fireman. And he did it multiple times!
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Post by jack7 on Feb 3, 2013 16:10:14 GMT -5
But the stucco was scraped only once. Most likely they used the ladder once only which would mean the baby passed outside and the room phonied a little, or the ladder broke and they just went in one of the doors (with inside help this would of course be easy). This gets into another area, but I still think there are strange pictures of Betty and Red doing unusual things somewhere. On paper the crime couldn't even have happened, but it did. Things filter down by elimination. It's filtered down to the only way it could have happened was with an insider.
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Post by Michael on Feb 4, 2013 1:14:00 GMT -5
In our town there are no paid Fireman positions. There were, as I recall, 5 Companies who took on Volunteers and properly trained them as Fireman - without pay. It's what made me respect those guys even more. I remember the individual who made this climb being in when I was about 10. So that would be about 35 years of training under his belt - probably more. If I were in a burning building I would thank my lucky stars if he were on that truck.
It's the training that is worthy of pointing out. That variable may or may not be important but I think omitting it from the discussion would be a mistake. And, as John pointed out, other things should be considered too.
Believe me, before you told me about it I didn't think it was even possible.
I do think we have to consider luck and circumstances when trying to figure this out. But we have to consider the other scenarios as well. One thing I have never understood is this black OR white approach. I believe this can put you behind the 8 ball right from jump-street.
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Post by jack7 on Feb 4, 2013 13:14:52 GMT -5
I've never found jump-street, but I've known plenty of Main Streets, and see you're heading towards beyondbeliefstreet. How many unliklies have to pile up before something is unbelievable. It's happened in history lots. Robert E. Lee was a West Point grad and everybody thinks a great General, but he blew the entire Civil War in one decision. That's certainly unlikely, but it actually happened. Most high profile crimes have unbelievable factors. 9/11 is a good example. On paper, like Lindbergh, 9/11 couldn't have happened - but it/they did. Both shot Kennedys were very protected, yet they were each pretty easily shot. Pearl Harbor was the most protected base in the world, yet it was mostly destroyed. Our kids are safe at school (America's babysitter) yet many are dead. America is a pacifist nation - yet it's been at war three times more than it's been a peace. One person had to have known that Charlie was dead, and that is CAL. His decisions amount to that, and his actions afterwards lead unmistakedly to the Nazis then having control over him. He never took on another cause.
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