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Post by Michael on May 18, 2010 6:06:44 GMT -5
This is an interesting theory Jack. I have always thought, if the bag was placed were it was, that it was done so to catch the attention of the Police. You're position is something I have never thought of before and certainly creates a need to explore alternatives.
What bothers me the most about this whole thing is the idea the child was either brought back to this spot or, in the very least, re-visited for the sleeping suit. Doesn't this, along with either of our theories, seem to indicate someone with access to this site? Is it Hauptmann, for example, driving down to Hopewell with the frequency this situation seems dictate?
I believe its why so many, to include all of the Police at the time, were convinced that someone local was involved.
Dwight Jr. was looked at. But he was looked at just enough to say he was. As far as sleeping with Nazis, or whoever, I would check out A Talent to Deceive. The Hepburn story is absolutely true, and to me, seems to indicate Dwight Jr. wasn't very much interested in attractive (extremely attractive) women at the time.
What are your exact reasons for saying this? I ask to better understand your position.
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2010 12:17:50 GMT -5
I could delve into it more, but several books say Jr. was very close to Anne and felt CAL had stolen her away from him. Please don't make me look this junk up - I'm getting so sick of Lindbergh. I mean there are so many ignored issues such as why does Kennedy say the ladder board is thicker than the supposedly matching attic boards - am I supposed to go and measure them? And your researchers, are they simply ignoring that (?) point? Also, if Hocmuth is blind how can he be driving log trucks around? If Betty was a liar (perhaps setting the entire crime up) why wouldn't she just lie again and say she checked on CALJr. at 9:00P completely exhonerating herself? Seems to me DMJr. needs more looking into. Dope? Women? What do BI/FBI files say? He went on to be a prominent attorney as I recall but seems he died young - and no I'm not looking it up! Lookup commies - I don't want to take researchers jobs away. This is an enigma Mike and the answer hasn't been found in over eighty years so that should tell YOU that the direction of investigation has been incorrect and new angles (Noso, DMJr.) should be gone after. I think Jr. would be the only one with conscience enough to bring the body back - otherwise, as you say, it certainly doesn't make sense. Speaking of sense (cents) want to buy some cameo proof coins - contact me at Champion Investments. Profiteer Grade Commodities. Home of the patented proof coin viewer.
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2010 12:36:22 GMT -5
"I think it's been proven it was him." Earlier quote by Michael. Him is who - Allen? I talk daily to people who tell me, "he did the splits," or something, and I ask who is he? and it turns out someone on Dancing With The Stars and not George McGovern. Books don't answer these questions, including the infamous Gardner, so you must be more specific to your throng.
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2010 12:48:10 GMT -5
And the enigma is due to Lindbergh's coverage - he wouldn't cover for an unknown, but he would cover for DMJr!
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Post by Michael on May 18, 2010 15:55:11 GMT -5
Just trying to learn. I didn't want to assume so I asked.
It's only an enigma because people gave up. They weren't willing to do the research. They weren't willing to listen to diverse but intelligent ideas then honestly consider them.
"Him" would be the subject of the post. That subject wasn't Allen, it was the child. Allen, by the way, was looked at by the Police.
I am confused. You aren't willing to look things up so how does one achieve this under those circumstances? I can't get into a serious discussion without a source for what's being said. If its a theory or a gut feeling - ok - but this isn't a fantasy discussion board. I can't waste time listening to someone make stuff up.
Rita & Allen have boards for that.
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2010 17:39:10 GMT -5
So who is the one whom calles themselves a researcher? I'm just a mostly quiet bystander - who are you? If you don't want to look into DMJr. in fifty years no one will ever notice, just like fifty years ago no one noticed. Simply saying that I do not have the time or the ability or the will (drive) to really give a S about it. I do believe DMJr. is worth looking into, but as a writer said about the Jack The Ripper Crime, "If Jack The Ripper was in this room and stood up, us writers (investigators) would mostly exclaim, 'who the hell is that?'" I'm mostly speaking motive and who could have any motive to return the body - DMJr. only it seems.
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2010 17:54:41 GMT -5
And do you want me to take a researcher's job away? Like I don't go into the fields and pick cotton balls away from pickers - they got their thing and I got mine. And you, Mike, sound pretty haughty for someone innocently looking into this. Is it a big thing? Then dump it and the world will never know and relax in the sun and eat strawberries and listen to an old radio that squalks and go wading.
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Post by jack7 on May 18, 2010 18:14:55 GMT -5
"Access to the site" means really access to the body, so in effect that means an earlier kidnap, probably between 8-9 about the time CAL was returning home, otherwise kidnappers would have risked being caught on the road. And returning of the body would have been risky in that area. Remember, the big supposed thing would be that they didn't want to get caught (with the body). If they took the sleepingsuit off firstly that would answer that part, but would indicate very experienced kidnappers which Hauptmann was(?). Other than that only someone who cared about the L family would return the corpse and that just correctly leads me to DMJr. There is so much other BS, like the road was used by rumrunners, etc., that they make it hard to sort out the facts, but one stands out - no one else would care.
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Post by rick3 on May 19, 2010 20:40:33 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents: - CAL is in on it up above his neck--why, because he KNOWS there is no Charlie Jr to get back from CJ and gang~Why...because no serious identification of CJr is asked or offered...just a game....certainily not a blue-threaded t-shirt?
Dialoque: JFC to CJ--"we need proof you have the baby...bring us a photo, a lock of hair, birthmarks, fingerprints, phone call, t-shirt etc!" CJ to JFC--"we dont have any of that? If kid is dead will i burne?"
- Therefore, the money/ransom paid is blackmail and extortion to keep the lid on the truth....CJ's gang never had kid.
- Some body...somebody needs to be "found" near the home to backup or support the illusions of any real kidnap/
- Some body....needs to be found so CAL can return from his yacht cruise with Curtis and stop searching and stop getting more blackmail demands.
- Since DWjr is part of the coverup....hes at Highfileds on March 1st (book talent to decieve_2nd Ed) its not him.
- it could be some accident or surely an inside job...maybe Cal and Anne, or Betty Sr.....Elizabeth? Shes a good target.
- the body is not there 72 days....its taken later after ransom/extortionn/ blackmail is paid.....probably by servaints or family member to be found near to home? Its like the nursery note.....looks to be there all the time? Very clever/shows up after the facts?
- some wierd things have happend to poor CJr....his head now has 2 holes--one on top; one behind ear/ alot of body parts missing and maybe a surgery and/or embalming (Wright)...thats alot for one kidnapping. And hes a blackened skeleton/ as if he were set on fire? Kindof creepy...maybe dug up a 2nd time?
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Post by Michael on May 20, 2010 5:52:34 GMT -5
Rick, are you saying you believe DWJr. was at Highfields on March 1st? If so, is it your position the family was completely aware of this, they became aware of it later, or never knew?
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Post by rick3 on May 20, 2010 7:55:22 GMT -5
Well, Im not certain about your question but SueC found one of the only changes to the 2nd Ed of Norris book was a reporter was told to find Dwigjt Jr at Highfields with cops...he went there and met Charles A. Lindbergh in person???
maybe start of Chap 2? So Dwight was there too/
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Post by jack7 on May 20, 2010 8:48:53 GMT -5
According to Norris, 2nd ed., "A Talent . . . " on the morning after the kidnapping CAL actually met with a reporter (Mosley) who was an acquaintence of DMjr. and basically told him he had nothing to say, but why even meet with HIM when there were hundreds of reporters around at that time trying to talk with Charles, or whomever. Mosley sent a note into the house requesting to speak with DMjr which was intercepted by Charles. Now if Jr. was not there, why wouldn't Charles simply ignore the note? Seems Charles perhaps suspected something so wanted to get that inquiry off the table.
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Post by kevkon on May 20, 2010 12:40:19 GMT -5
There's one thing to be said for " A Talent To Deceive", it's the most appropriately titled book on the case.
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Post by Joe on May 20, 2010 17:29:15 GMT -5
All I can say is Wow.. with all this nefarious skullduggery lurking in the shadows at Highfields and considering Charles Lindbergh is apparently part of such a murderous concoction, what extraordinary sleight of hand kept the "extortionist" Bruno Hauptmann free to traipse around the Bronx and out of a pine box for over two and a half years?
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Post by jack7 on May 20, 2010 21:08:57 GMT -5
Hey Joe McGinniss, you are not going to get sued for that comment. But you two (three or more) have to open up the blinders. There is something incorrect with TLC and has been from the start, and investigators simply ignore it. Why stall negotiations when your child's life is at stake? But CAL unquestionably did. There's really only one answer - he knew he was being scammed.
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Post by anon on May 21, 2010 3:59:45 GMT -5
There's one thing to be said for " A Talent To Deceive", it's the most appropriately titled book on the case. ...and The Langoliers (1995) (TV) move in eating up thoughtful posts w/ whacky nonsense!
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Post by jack7 on May 21, 2010 5:59:47 GMT -5
Kevkon is certainly correct, but it is also correct that this particular case is eighty years old and there are still major questions being asked about it. Kevkon himself said that's what makes it interesting, yet when an interesting notion arises, Kevkon falls back to bad book secnario.
TLC hasn't been solved by traditional thought so a new look at Rick's points is certainly in order. I'd hate to see Michael write a "new" book about this crime (newest of about 200) which would totally flop because it's just the same old garp.
So where was DMjr. on 3/1/32?
Rita solved this crime before you were born.
And for Anon - whacky posts are what bring out true information - no one had ever heard of Noso (a true involved {?} person) until Rick's "whacky" post wondering about him. RB.
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Post by kevkon on May 21, 2010 7:57:34 GMT -5
Jack, everyone has their own methods. For my part I just can't see any value in building on a bad foundation. I can't say it any simpler. If using questionable sources and shoddy sensational books is your choice, so be it. I just don't see the point. Perhaps that's because there really is no point.
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Post by Michael on May 21, 2010 15:45:06 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone reading one of the books, finding something in it interesting or worth pursuing, then attempting to discuss it.
But if someone simply brings it up, off the cuff, but has no desire to make a sincere effort behind the subject they brought up - then it seems like a waste of time for me to pursue that line.
It's like that comedy bit with the phone on Comedy Central: "Dwight Morrow Jr. - talk to me." No, YOU talk to me first. What do you find interesting? What are the ins and outs of your theory?
See my point?
I do agree DWJr. is an interesting figure. There's much mystery which surrounds him. But it could be for very good reason outside of this Case. What I see happen is that many people find odd things attributable only to this Crime and nothing else. That's a mistake. Things aren't always black nor are they always white. There is grey, and many shades of it at that.
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Post by rick3 on May 22, 2010 5:59:03 GMT -5
From my vantage point...CAL is the key manipulator of the LKC--eg puppetmaster-mind(MM): - CAL insists on total control of every event and aspect within reach--whos in or out/ up or down: Rosner/Spitale/Bitz/Madden.
- CAL assigns Breckenridge, former Asst Secr.War, to mind JFC? So he moves into his house? Pretty weird already.
- CAL makes multiple blunder moves....so whos he protecting or covering for? Hes biding for TIME...30 days/14 notes/$50K?
- Could be hisself, could be a close family member including Anne, Elizabeth, Constance, Dwight etc OR just The Family in General from public scrutiny or embarrassment?
- They all know CJr aint coming back--but need to find an End Game...to avoid self incrimination and deception-discovery.
- All we need is CALs secret motives? Elizabeth was AWOL for a while, then she and Dwight headed out for Europe. Maybe Dwight Jr came home to help out...especially on June 10th....he was right there when needed. Hes not on the outs or suspected by the Family. Hes an insider too. They circle the wagons.
- and we dont need any lie detectors either! Silent Witness ...Al "no-lie" Dunlap
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 6:45:38 GMT -5
Eventually CAL took over the Morrow cash, but what does CAL need extreme money for - he's basically kind of a hermit.
I agree with Rick's points.There's eighty years of looking at this crime with little results except for dumping BRH and it seems the wrong direction has been going on. I agree with Michael, but I have no way of finding out anything about DMjr. All that is really known about him (by me anyway) is that he was somewhat strange, but made it through college and existed for a while. I don't even know if he married - had kids? Always simply sounded like a wild kid to me rather than a weirdo, but the family may have wanted to cover up even a wild kid, and they DID have much influence.
Any bio. on William Norris, Michael? Seems I looked him up long ago and found he was some kinda' scholar, but can't find anything now. Plot?
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 8:55:32 GMT -5
I'm not yet saying that this is some kind of a plot, but I do say that a while back I checked out William Norris and me and Michael found him to be OK researcher, and today I find nothing available about William Norris. Not only that his book is extremely expensive and contains no identia. So grand, me and Michael just trip off to something new - but Rita keeps bring up Dwight Morrow Jr. Who is he? Well, researcher, who is he?
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 9:05:20 GMT -5
Hey Mike - I am not the researcher nor is Rick. You wanna know figure it out. If we say something you can consider it, or don't consider it, that's your perogative, but in reality you hold the cards so don't bother us with your unproblems.
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 9:07:38 GMT -5
Look at Rick's posts - do you believe this was a real crime? ?? F is simply a joke.
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Post by kevkon on May 22, 2010 10:22:18 GMT -5
Hey Mike - I am not the researcher nor is Rick. You wanna know figure it out. If we say something you can consider it, or don't consider it, that's your perogative, but in reality you hold the cards so don't bother us with your unproblems. What the hell does that mean? Are you guys just "idea men"? If you are, why not start by coming up with something new instead of regurgitating stuff that's been around since 1932? And why is is upon Michael's shoulders to "research" these grand conspiracy schemes? If that's what you think, then perhaps you ought to at least make the effort to lay the groundwork for these bizarre theories. You might try being consistent as well. Seems like every week there's another prime suspect in your sights. It gets old, very old. And there is never any resolution since you guys bounce around so much. I'm not even convinced you care given the posts I read on that wacky Hoax forum. One minute you are agreeing with that nutty woman about the "faked" wood evidence, the next minute you are playing up to Dave. Is that your idea of "Staying Strong"? Stick with something, pursue as far as you can, then ask for help if you need it. You will certainly receive it, but don't demand that someone else should jump every time a new suspect or theory jumps into frame.
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 11:16:25 GMT -5
What is your problem with Dave. Who the H is he anyway? And if we come up with different potential solutions why would that bother you? You can simply ignore them or answer them to the best of your ability. And I doubt that you're answering for Michael because he is a reasonable person and not adapt towards irresponsible statements. So keep it in your pants Kevkon - let the world fly on.
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Post by Michael on May 22, 2010 11:27:40 GMT -5
Well said Kevin.
Bill is a writer. He's written many books. Concerning A Talent to Deceive he employed a Researcher who I believe is acknowledged in his book. One Archive many of us will never see was used. I gave him a few items too which I think he put to very good use.
Personally, I think Bill wrote a worthwhile book, and I enjoyed reading it. There are those who may not agree (e.g. I don't think Kevin is a big fan of it). The way I see things is that even if you don't like a book or subscribe to its theory - you may come away with something it presented then put it to use. Even if its to disprove something alleged within its pages.
For example, if you like his theory and you want to discuss it then present what you like about it, why, and maybe something you are looking for which may or may not assist in furthering it.
I do consider Rick a researcher. He's been to my former residence, and we've swapped information so many times I've lost count. I think his point about Breckenridge "moving" into Condon's house is a very good one. His style is to put a lot out there then see what takes off. I would like to see this point take off - maybe on a thread of its own - to see what ideas can be brought to the table or where it leads us.
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Post by wolf2 on May 22, 2010 13:18:10 GMT -5
your right mike, bill is a great guy, sue also gave him some stuff
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 14:06:15 GMT -5
Well I certainly do not know William Norris as "bill" to name drop a guy, and Rick thank goodness has never been over to my house, though he is always welcome, but aside from monster phony crap which the above post states (I invited Richard Nixon to coffee once) why not expound something of pertinance. Who cares where Rick has been? It's what he is saying that matters. And so your saying DMjr. needs looking into - why not just start? What do you know about him that is bad? New thread? So do it or is it up to me?
I don't want to take researchers jobs away just like I don't want to pick up junk in the park. Remember, Rita had this case solved before you were born.
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Post by jack7 on May 22, 2010 14:10:12 GMT -5
And Kevkon seems to have some fixation about Dave - hey if you want to meet him, Kev I can introduce you guys.
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