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Post by sue75 on Jun 6, 2010 13:49:15 GMT -5
The light blue thread, a closely guarded secret. Lindbergh eating chocolate cake, too. See page 13. I tried to correct many of the errors when I cut and pasted from html, but you really must open up the pdf. It starts at the bottom of page 13, on the left: www.history.navy.mil/nan/backissues/1970s/1978/aug1978.pdfIn the spring of 1932. the nation was shocked by the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. The search was on to find the child and no clue was left unchecked. Ken had an urgent call from John Hughes Curtis, a prominent Norfolkboat builder who was well known in society circles. Curtis said he had information about the lost child and had to see Lindbergh at once. Arrangements were made for Curtis to be flown to Hopewell. NJ. Of all the clues that had poured into Hopewell, this one was the only one that Lindbergh felt might be true because Curtis knew that the baby had a piece of flannel sewed inside its shirt with light blue thread.This had been a closely guarded secret. As a result of the visit to Hopewell, Lindbergh came to Norfolk and stayed aboard the Curtis yacht.The baby was supposedly aboard a Gloucester fisherman sailing down from Boston. A rendezvous was arranged off Cape Hatteras. His baby was to be transferred at sea. Ken had air station planes scout the area, lie met with Lindbergh and Curtis aboard the yacht. Lindbergh neither drank nor smoked but he delighted in chocolate cake which the Whitings had every Sunday. Ken put half the cake in a shoe box to deliver to the anxious Lindbergh. Next day the Norfolk papers ran a bannerheadline. "Ransom money delivered in shoe box."Ken warned Lindbergh of a possible hoax as he knew it was impossible to sail from Boston to the Cape in the time stated by Curtis. Lindbergh was leary, too, but felt he had to follow through because of the blue thread clue. After thercnde7A'ous failed ami the Navy could find no Gloucester fisherman. Lindbergh returned to Hopewell and Curtis went to jail.
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Post by sue75 on Jun 6, 2010 13:50:26 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on Jun 6, 2010 13:57:44 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Jun 7, 2010 6:39:31 GMT -5
Good find Sue.
The blue thread clue was one of many that Lindbergh used to believe Curtis was legit. In the end, I'd love to know who was giving this guy his intel.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jun 11, 2010 21:28:51 GMT -5
According to Norris Curtia actually had bad bills and (supposedly) showed them to Lindbergh. That is in his book. Can we trust Norris anymore?
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Post by Michael on Jun 12, 2010 7:29:55 GMT -5
First and foremost: Lindbergh & Curtis spent a lot of time together. According to Curtis they got pretty chummy. While Curtis was supposed to have shown ransom bills to Gay, I have seen no record of him showing them to Lindy... Only records which say that somehow Lindy believed him.
So let me say, once again, because we haven't seen a record that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Bill had access to records none of us have.
Did he see something we haven't or is it a mistake? I don't know, but if its a mistake it certainly doesn't undermine everything he's written.
As I work on my "book" I can tell you that I am re-writing history. So much is wrong by so many people. And, by the same argument, some is right too.
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Post by jack7 on Jun 22, 2010 23:39:06 GMT -5
I would think it would take more for Lindbergh to act than that the rminnencences of a blue thread or bills which never appeared. Some books say he (Curtis) actually had the bills, and others say he had numbers. So other than you, Michael, how can anyone qualify that? Do you expect each of us to roam to NJ and impose upon whatever remains of Lindbergh data and to fuse a minor point such as if there was more thread or not, or if there extant blls? What Curtis "saw" could be gleaned from newspapers. Can you saw that?
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Post by Michael on Jun 23, 2010 5:56:35 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying Jack but you are jumping to conclusions that are unsupported by the facts.
The issues Curtis raised, which convinced Lindbergh (and by Lamb's testimony at Curtis's Trial add him to the list too) that he had information only those on the inside would know. If this information was in the "papers" do you think either one of them would have bought into this?
As far as the money goes.... He flashed some older gold notes, and claimed they were ransom given to him by the Kidnappers. He would claim the numbers checked. I haven't found anything that proves some independent person verified the numbers. I saw something once, somewhere, that told a story of Haskell doing this but judging from his letters to Gov. Hoffman I think it doesn't seem likely.
One day I will go through this stuff with a fine toothed comb. Whether or not there is something to this, there's always information that comes out of it, however slight, which is worthwhile.
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 6:53:45 GMT -5
If we knew exactly why CAL was chasing Curtis around it wouldn't be "slight," because it doesn't seem to have been definitively answered before. Would be a GOOD point in a book. I'm simply saying that Norris (no dummy as I've previously noted) makes some claims which unfortunately he doesn't back up with any kind of references.One is that Curtis had bad bills in his posession. Look in Norris' book - I don't recall the page number but I could look it up if you like. To counter that, in other books Curtis' only "confession" to CAL is that he didn't actually see bad bills - implying that the rest of his (Curtis') story is correct. So we got the right train running but on different gauge tracks - kinda like the Russians in WWI. I like Norris, but think he should have somehow annoted his information. He also said, as an example, that Fisch paid for his German passage with ransom bills even getting into a ditty about a guy wanting to keep them or give them as gifts. Can he back that up? Curtis had to be a hoax or he would never have given in. Also Curtis, ex post facto, offered to do BRH - letters exist from Schwartzkopf. Someday you gotta admit, Michael, that the man (Curtis) was mixed up, and looking at a few of the things which Norris says one wonders about him too.
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 7:11:29 GMT -5
I wish Sue would simply note pertinant passages without her draws to other sites. My father was a Navy Pilot so I'm mildly interested, but mostly I'm not sure what she's talking about. How about a line, Sue, amongst many, that says here is when Curtis mentioned the blue thread (which I doubt anyone can come up with - perhaps Norris) and be done with it? Some of your sites don't work and if they do it takes forty pages to find one sentence.
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Post by sue75 on Jun 23, 2010 10:15:48 GMT -5
Hey, Sweetheart, what more do you want?
I'm pretty damn good!
I cut & paste the passage, give the link to the website, and provide the page number and say, for example: "bottom of page 13, on the left."
Are you blind, or did you just fail to read the first post?
I don't see you finding these obscure references to the Lindbergh case from decades ago.
I stumble on this stuff with my clever mind and a dash of serendipity.
Have a nice day.
"be careful! They're lions, you know." Truman Capote
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 12:42:59 GMT -5
Hi Darling:
You presented a great example. Your reference to line 17 leads one to a page which doesn't even exist.
Why not just say that Curtis advised Charles about blue thread because . . . ( but I doubt there is ever that reference.)
I knew Truman Capote, Truman Capote was a friend of mine, you are not Truman Capote.
See You In BigTowne Jack
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 13:11:10 GMT -5
"He"
"he flashed some gold notes . . ."
Do you think Charles was that stupid - and not just him, all of the police protecting him to just accept that "flashing" gold notes meant that they were ransom bills? Somewhere in this crime you have to sort out the idiots and this is certainly a good point of start. Perhaps sorting out Norris as well. He's (Norris) certainly not an idiot but he's writing as one and by not backing up his claims is researching as one. Norris may well be correct, but he's not any more correct than Tony down the street, the hamburger grinder who knows definitively all about the crime. So plant yourself, Michael with Norris or Tony and it won't add up to much. This is all stupid and has nothing to do with the crime - why do we get onto this junk?
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 13:32:32 GMT -5
Kaiser:
I would respectfully wish that ny comission to Lieutenant be downgraded to that of Corporal. Lieutenants do not fight this war - they sit in fat overtaken houses and swell with flab and so many orders for others who must do their duty. Communists!
I have done extreme duty as a corporal by delivering messages post to post for over two years.
I have been issued our nation's highest honor, the Iron Cross for my bravery.
Respectfully I request to remain a corporal and with my fellow troops.
Jack
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Post by Michael on Jun 23, 2010 16:57:16 GMT -5
For those who think Curtis doesn't matter then I want to tell you a little secret......shhhh.....don't tell anyone...but:
There are such things as Conspiracies. There are. No, there really are. And there was a ton of unethical things going on. (I hope Fisher isn't reading this) So, for a price, someone may do something they shouldn't. Like, for example, when you had one Prosecutor threatening to indict a certain Reporter, and another Prosecutor was feeding this same Reporter the information!
This type of stuff happened almost everyday during this case.
Again, its confidential so don't tell anyone. And guess what? As hard as it may seem, most people didn't tell. That is, until much later in life when it was safe to.
But if you don't read up on something, because say, it doesn't matter - then you'll never know.
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Post by wolf2 on Jun 23, 2010 18:36:29 GMT -5
hi mike im back from vacation didnt get a chance to see the hoage papers at ucla, i think curtis was a fraud, i never saw any indication that he was in touch with the real kidnappers. he was a smart man that needed money, if they didnt find the baby in the woods we dont know how long he could have kept his plan in effect. i think curtis would have been around a while. curtis had good people around him
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 19:49:48 GMT -5
I agree with Steve and see absolutely no correct inclination towards Curtis. Just firstly, if Curtis was correct then the baby would have been alive? and somewhere past 3/1/32. That means the body or child would have to have been broughten back to the "burial" site at some time within a couple months. Would anyone have risked that - and especially for what? Kevkon and Dave keep saying it's a simple crime and the more I've looked the more I agree. Hauptmann was lucky if you want to call it that, and idiotly scored and the things that add up to a monster conspiracy in the long run just don't add up.
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 20:01:21 GMT -5
What's this "secrets" BS, Michael? Aren't we supposed to be an open group? So if you know things which we (the rest of the group) don't then "group study" is simply superficial to your, or whomever has the extra knowledge, desires. So it seems if you continue on, this study group should be disbanded because you have turned your back on and discarded it. Are you disbanding this study group and closing the website, Michael?
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Post by jack7 on Jun 23, 2010 20:21:05 GMT -5
Truman Capote came to a few workouts I had in upstate NY. I don't remember the town (could perhaps look it up if anybody's interested) because I was drifting at the time. He was an older guy but fit in OK. He was a little guy but had very determination and as I recall a nice snap kick. I did not make any notes about him because he was at that time not going for a belt but I remember he came back a couple times and was a good talker. Seems to me at the time he was a green belt.
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Post by Michael on Jun 24, 2010 6:08:29 GMT -5
I am not saying Curtis was in touch with the actual kidnappers. I mean, in the end, we absolutely know he wasn't at that time.
But there's a lot out there, once you seriously look into this, that leaves many unanswered questions.
I believe there were two or more involved in this thing. I also believe in the possibility that at some point, one or more, split from those working with Condon.
Where did Curtis get his information? That's important. Well, there's the "Kidnappers" ..... then there's the "Staff" .... then there's the "Family" .... and, oh yes, there's the "Authorities."
If Curtis was approached initially, and I think that possible, then maybe this emissary had the information to kick start the Curtis angle. One thing is for sure - Curtis had information that convinced Lindbergh, Lamb, and many others - that he was legit at the time. There were literally thousands of people trying to do this but couldn't. And why is that do you think?
I can't ignore this stuff off if I want to figure out this crime. If someone on the "inside" was the source of this information then they are not to be trusted. As I pursue these lines of thought, I find out, more and more, that many people were doing things that were unethical, illegal, or just plain wrong. What's left are those I think I can trust.
This is my philosophy. If I cannot trust someone in one place then I will not trust them in another. I am not telling anyone what they should do or think. But in the end, blowing off any angle of the Case is a loss of information which could prove valuable.
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Post by jack7 on Jun 26, 2010 15:28:17 GMT -5
Well, just offhand, Curtis couldn't even find several places where he met these people (and their nicks are very reminiscent of imagination) even though he'd been visiting them more than once. Many things seem to add up to a nonissue, but I fall in line with you, Michael - if you say there's something there, as always, then I believe. The illegal angle seems interesting - just needs someone to explain how it would make any sense.
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Post by Michael on Jul 5, 2010 10:06:13 GMT -5
Here's some more I just found on the ransom serials: The men dealing through Norfolk gave other tokens to prove themselves the real kidnapers. Curtis told Lindbergh he had been shown $3000 of the ransom money and submitted to Lindbergh the serial numbers copied from $1200 worth of bills. [Newark Evening News, 5-13-32]
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Post by jack7 on Jul 5, 2010 21:53:19 GMT -5
But had that (those numbers) been published somewhere priorly? I havn't seen anything which Curtis had that was other than common knowledge - granted you'd have to scoop a bit, but it was all there. So it seems Curtis is really just a more elaborate hoax, and remember he was telling CAL all along that the kid was alive - what could be more wrong? IMO Curtis should have been shot by firing squad and those (that) judge(s) looking were so F'd up that they should have been next in line for the unloading of the rifles. You probably know what Wolf thinks about all this, but ask him again to refresh your memory. As a second thought on that it's a H of a lot more fun unloading tanks than rifles.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 6, 2010 1:22:20 GMT -5
As stupid as anyone thinks "The Three Stooges" were, they were in more movies than John Wayne, Carey Grant, Gregory Peck and James Stewart all combined!
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Post by jack7 on Jul 6, 2010 1:36:26 GMT -5
Not if you include Gary Cooper, however. Gary Cooper was the highest paid person per word of all time. He made more money standing around doing absolutely nothing for a few hours than most people do in a lifetime. Peter Lawford hung around with Gary and his wife (she was called Rocky) and said Gary was the most ultimate zero of all time (though it's suspected Lawford - later of Kennedy fame - had an affair with Cooper's wife, as he did with most women he met.) See there are interesting comments on this site.
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Post by Michael on Jul 6, 2010 5:59:09 GMT -5
Jack,
If you go point by point by which Curtis convinced Capt. Lamb, Lindbergh, and the others I think you will see he has some intel he should not have.
I think the question becomes where he's getting it.
Isn't he taking an unusal risk that these numbers aren't on bills already discovered?
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Post by kevkon on Jul 6, 2010 13:11:28 GMT -5
Believe it or not, there is a helluva lot to not saying much.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 6, 2010 13:30:40 GMT -5
I'd like to keep on the thread, but sometimes there's just not much going on. So Gary Cooper is more interesting than Captain Lamb. Lawford never actually said he was having an affair with Cooper's wife (Rocky) but it would be interesting if a B actor such as him (Lawford) was doing the coolest man in town's dame. Kinda like Elvis' karate instructor running away with his girl.
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Post by gary on Jul 15, 2010 11:41:05 GMT -5
I believe there were two or more involved in this thing. I also believe in the possibility that in some point one or more split from those working with Condon. Michael.
I agree with you Michael. The only exception I don't understand the Condon part but certainly I can't say entirely no. My thinking is several in the conception of the crime in which Hauptmann was a part of the chain. Probably ended up Hauptmann, Fisch and maybe one other who actually did the crime. The thing that stands out to me is the Samuelsohn's story. I know it was not for the ladder that was used but I believe his story in that there were several. I believe three involved in the order and pick up of.
Someday I hope to understand your viewpoint Condon could be involved. I don't want you to break the mystery in your book but I certainly will read that chapter with much interest.
The Wendel/Parker thing has been exhausting but I never discounted there is more to the eye here. I've often pondered why Parker was so drawn to such a dead end. Considering if Wendel conceived the plan for some kind of scam or independent maneuver to impress Capone. Then the plan and Wendel's involvement dissolves but Frankenstein is created within the sub parts. Parker is drawn to Wendel by his inquiries on how much the investigators know of the very beginnings. I always thought something like this was the genesis of the crime. Maybe not Wendel, maybe something else, but something more than Hauptmann and Fisch.
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Post by Michael on Jul 15, 2010 17:12:22 GMT -5
Gary,
I am done the rough draft of 1 chapter and at work on my next. As I write, they aren't necessarily in the order I will place them in what I hope will be a book. Anywhere within a specific chapter where Condon exists I will touch on him. I am trying to bring out new information, interesting information, and correct what's been accepted as fact when it isn't factual at all.
You are the 2nd person who told me they are looking forward to my chapter on Condon. I get dizzy just thinking about that. Condon could be a book all by himself, and I don't know how possible it will be to write just a chapter on him.
Anyway, time will tell, and I think its important to hear what you or anyone else thinks I should include - especially while the night is young. There's always room in my head for additions, deletions, and/or changes.
Specifically though, my belief is that Inspector Walsh was right. That Condon was brought in by the Kidnappers to "act" as a neutral liaison but in reality was their representative. Get them the money while keeping them from getting arrested.
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