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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 3, 2007 16:55:31 GMT -5
I hope you don't mind if I ask a non-LKC question. I'm coming up with bupkis on my own research and I know some of you have done extensive research into historical kidnappings. I'm not asking anyone to do my research for me - but if you know the answer off hand, I'd surely appreciate it.
I know that CJ received the ransom through a go-between (JFC) at a deserted spot (St. Ray's). There were other kidnappings in which ransoms were paid. It's fairly easy to find the amounts paid, but none of the sources I've found give the where and how of the ransom deliveries. I am, for the most part, looking for information as to whether busy, public places or dark, deserted locations were the predominant choice and whether go-betweens were common.
For those of you who don't remember me, I am 'semi-retired' from the LKC due to health concerns. And, I've been writing mysteries - the crimes are so much easier to solve when you plan them yourself!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 3, 2007 19:38:53 GMT -5
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 4, 2007 8:02:31 GMT -5
I don't have it, but it looks like a good reference book to have. I have Alix's Ransom Kidnapping in America.
Thank you for the link.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to just post what I have in mind and get opinions as to whether a kidnapper would do it, given the variables involved.
I'm thinking of an exchange on the subway. The kidnapper would direct the go-between to a phone booth near a news stand and adjacent subway station. At the phone booth, he would instruct the go-between to buy a certain periodical, fold it open to a certain page & carry it under his arm. The go-between is then to take a certain car on, say, the #4 train all the way to its last station and back again. This gives the kidnapper an opportunity to stand on a platform somewhere and see if there is more than one person still in the car on its return trip. If there's only one, he gets on the car, sits behind the go-between (or moves behind him when the seat behind him is vacated) and instructs him to slid the ransom back to him on the floor. At the next stop, or perhaps the one after that, the kidnapper gets off at the last minute, after instructing the go-between to stay on the train. It's 1928, so the go-between can't contact the cops from the train & it would have been extremely difficult to station undercover cops at each of the stations on the line - unless the go-between managed to relay the instructions to a cop after getting off the phone. Still, once on the train, the kidnapper would have no route of escape except at a station. That would worry me if I was the kidnapper!
Any opinions?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 4, 2007 8:58:46 GMT -5
It's very similar to an actual kidnapping ransom drop where the "go-between" was instructed on to a train and the ransom was thrown out the window at a specific point. It eliminated any chance for the police to be ready. I will have to look up which case this was, unless Michael knows off hand.
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Post by Michael on Aug 4, 2007 9:17:11 GMT -5
Unless it happened in another case too then it was the 2nd $12,000 ransom payment made in the Coughlin kidnapping. Coincidentally, there were a lot of similarities with that case and the Lindbergh Case.... even a Summit New Jersey connection.
By the way, the 1st $12,000 payment was made near a Trolley.
Here's a side note which may apply or may not so take it for what it's worth. I've had a lot of interaction with OC guys over the years and more then one have said that a subway platform is one of those "safe areas" they use to talk. I suppose because no one would be able to overhear them and/or the back round noise would ruin the sound quality of a wire and/or directional microphone. The Cemetery was, according to one trusted source, "way back when" because only the dead could hear you.
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 4, 2007 13:08:13 GMT -5
I its similar to one that HAS been done, then it's reasonable to assume that it MIGHT be done. Outstanding. The 'out the window' idea was pretty doggone clever and it seems to me that subway car windows may have opened back before they were air-conditioned, but my perp doesn't have a partner. Hmmm.
Many thanks to both of you.
I suppose I should have asked you if I could post this query, Michael. I hope I haven't stepped 'out of line'. It's just, well, like Einstein said - it's not necessary to know all the answers, only where to find them. Thanks, again.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 4, 2007 14:57:12 GMT -5
The perp doesn't need a partner, that's the beauty of it. The first note is a blind drop near or at the station. The second instructs what train to get on and when to toss the loot. If the perp did his homework that's likely to be a spot on a long stretch between stops. The cops can't get to him in time.
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 4, 2007 17:28:48 GMT -5
What's to stop the go-between from passing the second note to a cop waiting at a nearby call box?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 4, 2007 19:58:48 GMT -5
Nothing except the consequences.
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 5, 2007 9:17:29 GMT -5
Hmmm. It sounds like a very clever plan --- maybe a little too clever.
One last question: Was the Coughlin kidnapper ever caught? (I haven't been able to find anything about it on the net --- yet.)
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 5, 2007 11:31:12 GMT -5
Yes, initially I believe a maid and a friend of one of the servants were arrested but not charged. Eventually the police captured August Pascal and he confessed to kidnapping and unintentionally murdering the child while attempting to keep him from crying. I am not completely sure that Pascal was the recipient of the $12000 left under the train tracks. There were quite a few different parties attempting to extort a ransom from the child's father.
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Post by Michael on Aug 5, 2007 19:15:50 GMT -5
If you go back to the beginning of this thread Pam posted Newspaper quotes about this case. I know its also mentioned in the Snatch Racket somewhere. As Kevin points out, after August Pascal was captured he confessed adding the child had been accidentally smothered. However, he would recant his confession later on. The NJSP believed there were "others," and they actually believed the child was alive. My research "dead-ends" at a certain point in this case so I don't know all the details. Here is something from a June '32 report written by Bornmann: When questioned as to whether she had any knowledge of the manner in which he committed the kidnapping he was evasive in his answers but it is the opinion of the investigating officers that she had this knowledge.
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 6, 2007 15:24:33 GMT -5
I found Pam's posts. And I know my local library has Snatch Rackets.
Thanks again. I really appreciate your help.
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 11, 2007 12:16:59 GMT -5
One more question, if I may.
I've been told by a current cop that my detective would not have participated in the ransom drop.
Anyone recall a kidnapping of the 20s/30s where a cop did actually participate in the ransom exchange?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 11, 2007 13:24:00 GMT -5
What do you mean by participate? If you mean was a cop present the answer is yes. Now I have a question. Do I get any royalties or a mention in your book? ;D
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Post by wahgooshdidit on Aug 11, 2007 18:33:41 GMT -5
By participate, I meant that I had planned for my police detective, posing as the go-between, to make the drop, intending to catch the perp in the act of collecting the ransom.
Since I posted the question, I've done some quick research and my PDNY guy seems to be right. The cop's job is to catch the perp and paying the ransom interferes with that process - and encourages other potential kidnappers. Rats!
Royalties & mentions? IF I'm very lucky and very persistent and it ever gets published, I'll be happy to give credit where credit is due in a list of 'technical advisors' --- and a free copy of the book. You might be able to get a coupla bucks for it on ebay ;-)
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 12, 2007 8:07:39 GMT -5
Wagooshdidit, I hope your book is very successful and I will certainly buy it when available.
Regarding your question, I do believe that a detective has actually made the ransom drops. The problem is I can't remember what the cases were. I am almost positive that a Scotland Yard detective did one and another happened in the USA.
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Post by mark lentine on Jan 27, 2008 5:53:50 GMT -5
Hi Kevkon. Although there's no 'signature' (that I know of) here is a report of the Coughlin kidnapping, some aspects of which are similar to the LKC. The Clearfield Progress - June 3 1920 Kidnappers of Thirteen Months Old Norristown Child Make Getaway Finger prints and footprints were investigated by the police as clews to the kidnappers of Blakely Coughlin, 13 months old baby who was taken from his parents home Wednesday night. Foot prints indicate that the abductors were a man and a women who used an automobile in their escape, the police said. Scores of detectives and school boys of Norristown aided by police dogs are searching the country around the Coughlin home for the boy. Experts examined the finger prints on the second floor window by which access was gained by means of a ladder. A reward of $1500 has been offered for the apprehension of the kidnapper. The Clearfield Progress - June 4 1920 Two Arrested in Kidnapping Case Evidenence Against Them is Secret The authorities refused to reveal what evidence they had in conneting Mrs Katherine Dandon, a maid, with the kidnapping of the 13 months old son of Mr and Mrs George H Coughlin, of Norristown. Mrs Dandon, formerly a servant in the Coughlin home for a short time, was taken into custody by private detectives. The parents have received a letter demanding a reward. It is beleived to be the work of a crank. The parents have inserted an ad offering a reward of $6,000 for the arrest of the kidnapper. James Malone, aged 27, has also been taken into custody and will be questioned in connection with the kidnapping. The Daily Courier - June 4 1920 Second Arrest Made A second arrest in connection with the kidnapping of Blakeley Coughlin was made today in Philadelphia. The prisoner James Malone 27 years was taken into custody at his home and locked up for a hearing. No specific charge was made against him. Malone, accroding to the authorities, is a friend of Catherine Dunden, a former cook in the family of George H Coughlin father of the stolen child who was arrested at her home at Conshohocken last night on charges of suspicion of having been implicated in the kidnapping. The woman declared she is innocent of any connection with the case. Can't quite remember who was eventually charged with the kidnapping - think it was something Pascal. To me, this is a similar case - ladder, kidnap second floor, foorprints of a man and women leading to a car, a maid suspected (and perhaps others as inside help). As mentioned I can't quite recall the outcome, but if Pascal is the correct name of the person charged, then the other similarity is that the police began with at least 2 suspected perpetrators and ended up arresting a lone kidnapper.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 27, 2008 9:58:53 GMT -5
Mark, there are similarities between the two kidnappings especially if you believe there was inside assistance. But that point was readily discovered in the Coughlin case. The note is still, from my view, the singular most revealing and odd aspect of the LKC.
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Post by riahbuck on Feb 6, 2008 13:07:45 GMT -5
what kind of man could really kill a helpless child?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2008 21:31:49 GMT -5
The Tacoma Wa. kidnapping of 9 yr old George Weyerhaeuser in May 1935 may be of interest to some. Certainly seems inspired by the LKC.
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Post by Michael on Jul 30, 2008 12:02:40 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Dec 27, 2009 10:28:19 GMT -5
Not a kidnapping, but a reference to an interesting Case I have never before heard about. (These are the things that side-track me). Now I have to research it further..... One of the most conspicuous cases of this sort was the Durant case out in Oakland, California int he late Nineties, shortly after the close of the Spanish-American war. A young man of eduction and good family connections was arrested and accused of murdering a young lady, a choir singer in the local Presbyterian Church in Oakland. Her body was found in the belfry of the church and a convincing web of circumstantial evidence very similar to that adduced in the Hauptmann case was woven about the young man, pointing conclusively to young Durant as the murderer. It was a case such as Alexander Wolcott would delight in. He was convicted and sent to the gallows, but several years later it was discovered that the minister of the church was the real murderer, and of course the irretrievable wrong could not be expiated, through which the State had taken an innocent man's life.
Apparently, a chance for a repetition of this hideous blunder in the Durant case exists likewise in the present Hauptmann case, unless calm and dispassionate action such as you have shown yourself so eminently capable of, is taken in this matter. Such a mistake, if committed, would exercise a grave and irreparable influence against moral progress in American even more deplorable then the transgressions of criminals and racketeers in the past. [Donald Beard to Gov. Hoffman Letter, 12-26-36]
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Post by Michael on Jun 23, 2011 16:51:19 GMT -5
Check out the reference: Attachments:
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 2, 2015 16:40:22 GMT -5
Just wanted to remind everyone that today, Jan. 2, 2015, is the 80th anniversary of the beginning of the Hauptmann trial, aka "The Trial of the Century." It was duly noted today on FoxNews shortly before 4 PM ET.
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 3, 2015 12:03:13 GMT -5
wow 80 years. yesterday I saw the ellis parker segment on the show "mysteries at the museums".
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 3, 2015 12:17:24 GMT -5
wow 80 years. yesterday I saw the ellis parker segment on the show "mysteries at the museums". (romeo12)
What channel was that on? How did they present Parker's unconventional theories on the LKC?
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Post by romeo12 on Jan 3, 2015 12:24:43 GMT -5
its a series on the travel channel. they go to different museums and find odd items and tell you the story behind them like ellis parkers pipe. what do you mean by un conventional?
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