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Post by carol on Aug 3, 2006 18:47:30 GMT -5
For those of you who believe Hauptmann was CJ, how do you explain Condon describing the voice as husky when we all know that Hauptmann's voice was high pitched?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 3, 2006 19:34:46 GMT -5
Rick, I have to admit that my knowledge of the Ramsey case is very limited. What little I know of it seems to indicate that the police really dropped the ball. I do seem to recall an investigative tv show which brought up some disturbing evidence relating to a possible suspect who for some reason was never fully investigated by the police. I think he was killed sometime after the crime.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 4, 2006 6:55:05 GMT -5
Kevin/ the last I heard there was no actual, real, intruder found or identified/ but, merely an imaginary intruder created by a private detective hansomely paid by John Ramsey to create one out of fibers, hairs and a cobweb of CSI evidence.
The JBR case illustrates the enormous hurdle any child murder case has to interview, involve or indict the immediate family--especially if they have the political power and financial means to control the insuing investigation and misdirect all the evidence elsewheres. And John Ramsey was no National Icon/
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Post by rick3 on Aug 4, 2006 8:03:10 GMT -5
The Case of the Barking Dog
""When I got that far I began to look for an alternative explanation. The dog hadn't barked; therefore he knew the killer. Therefore, the killer was familiar to the family. Therefore the identity of the killer was suspected by the women, probably for some reason I did not yet know. The suspicion must be pretty definite for them to sheild him in this way/ This explanation fitted all the facts and no other did, so it must be the correct one, no matter now far-fetched it seemed""
from The Cunning Mulatto and other cases by Ellis Parker (1935) Harrison/Smith and Haas Publishers US
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 5, 2006 6:57:14 GMT -5
I don't know Rick, I have two Jack Russells and I am often surprised at whom and when they bark, or not. Personally, I think you are pre-disposed toward an insider as the "kidnapper", then I would say that the more relevant canine in the case is the one that wasn't there that night, the Scottie. I doubt anyone would have gotton into that Nursery with that dog there.
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Post by leah on Aug 5, 2006 9:07:39 GMT -5
let me ask something about tne JBR crime. i'm a elementart ed teacher and have read a book to children entitled THE KISSING HAND that describes a red heart drawn in the hand of a baby racoon to symbolize love by the mother. as far as i know no one has ever adressed the small heart drawn inside this little girl's hand found at her death. this book was an award winning child's publication only a year or two before JBR's death and one any Yuppie parent woild have in a well stocked pre-school library.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 5, 2006 12:22:34 GMT -5
Hi Kevin/ for a moment I thought you said you had two Jack Daniels? Yikes, before noon on a Saturday.
I see myself as a latter-day Ellis Parker....sifting thru the clews.Dogs normally bark if not drugged with paragoric?
If the ransom negotiations are staged in the Bronx for a corpse? (then) Is the kidnap itself staged (staired) with props and no climber?
Then who is left but the insiders/ outsiders dont do staging? And outsiders dont wipe down the nursery to eliminate prints?
Today Im thinking "where did Fisch get the Gold Certs to pay Stielweg"? Condon, Wendel or on the Street for 40%?
What happened to the first $50,000 put in Condons bank account? Even before Woodlawn?
Was Charlie spirited away from Highfields by Betty, Charles and Red on his way to Massachusettes? Were they paid to keep silent? Why did JFCJ call them the inocents?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 5, 2006 15:32:02 GMT -5
Rick, sometimes two Jack Daniels would be easier to take than two Jack Russells! The point I was making though, is that dogs are unpredictable in their responses and more importantly that the Scottie was not present at Highfields. I am often surprised more is not made of that fact.
Why would "wiping down the Nursery" be the actions of an "insider" and not an "outsider"?
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Post by leah on Aug 5, 2006 16:43:08 GMT -5
there was a blood clot found at the sight of the fracture so the child was alive when his head was bashed in.
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Post by Michael on Aug 6, 2006 8:46:17 GMT -5
Excellent point Carol. It dove-tails in nicely with my original point. It also questions Linbergh's voice identification. It just seems to me there is a selectiveness among us when it comes to what we accept and what it is based upon (and what it isn't).
I have never believed CJ was Hauptmann.
I think this breed tends to bark at strangers moreso then most other breeds. Now of course each individual dog has their own personality..... For example, my Jack will bark at anyone who approaches my home, however, she has differing barks which let me know if its a stranger, friend, or neighbor.
If anyone saw the recent Japanese re-enactment filmed in Bucks County you can get a dose of my dog showing off her barking skills.
I think the most important problem is this dog was known as a "barker" and the only person who ever claimed it wasn't - was Lindbergh on the stand. Exactly why he testified to the contrary is unknown - but he did. His explanation as to why the Scottie was left behind is less of an issue for me because, unlike his testimony concerning Whagoosh, I can believe it.
Past and future cases involving dogs show they are sometimes drugged as a way to avoid the obstacle. In this case the dog seems to be conveniently on the other side of the house exactly during the brief window of time these people struck. Again, was this a coincidence or a planned event? If the crime was planned, to any degree, then these people had some sort of counter-measure ready to neutralize the dog.... What was it and was it their knowledge it would be in the opposite end of the house?
If you accept the blood-clot observation as correct, where did the child's blood go? It didn't leak onto his clothes or the burlap bag. No blood evidence external to the corpse whatsoever.
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Post by leah on Aug 7, 2006 8:24:51 GMT -5
This was a closed head injury that kills many people. no bleeding except within the skull usually resulting in swelling coma and death if death isn't instantanous. if a pt lives the blood is re absorbed like a bruise. happens frequently when children aren't seat-belted in cars during an accident. states score these injuries in kids because so many cognitive problems result later.
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Post by Bob on Aug 10, 2006 7:47:20 GMT -5
Leah, my son had a CHI as the result of a fall when he was 2. The only external signs were two black eyes although the injury occured to the back of his head!
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Post by Michael on Aug 10, 2006 18:10:27 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not believe this was a closed head injury. It seems to me the skin/skull was pierced - originally thought by a bullet - so obviously those examining the corpse felt believed there was penetration.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 10, 2006 19:40:02 GMT -5
Ok Michael--truth or dare:
1. Dr. Mitchells gunshot theory?
2. Harry Walshes stick poke theory?
3. Ricks surgical drainage tube for brain swelling/ epileptic seizure theory?
4. other/ all the above?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 10, 2006 21:38:36 GMT -5
Hi Rick~ May I play truth or dare, too? #1- I doubt. Wouldn't a bullet shot have blown out the other side of the child's head? Recall there was only evidence of small blood clot inside the skull.(autopsy report, such as it was) #2-Am inclined to believe the stick poke is the solution, when trying to turn over the corpse. #3-Can't fully rule out
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Post by rick3 on Aug 11, 2006 1:53:26 GMT -5
Hi Mairi/ Au contrare'! Ellis Parker proves #1 is fully in play....see the Case of the Deathbed Confession in either The Cunning Mullato or case of Robert Brewer in Master Detective.
"Robert Brewer died of a bullet wound. It entered the back of his skull, went entirely through the brain and lodged at the front just behind the eys and low down. He actually lived to ten days, moved, spoke and ate a Christmas dinner with a bullet in his brain. Why its almost incredible!" Ellis got the bullet from Dr. Mitchell in Trenton and found it was a .32 caliber!
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Post by Michael on Aug 11, 2006 5:14:24 GMT -5
Rick gives a very good example. It depends on the caliber of the bullet and sometimes the distance and angle of the shot as well. I know of a case where a man was shot in the back of the head with a .22. The bullet did not even penetrate the skull but followed the contour of it around the head (under the skin) and exited out of the eye.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 11, 2006 13:40:46 GMT -5
Michael and Rick~Ellis got the bullet from Dr Mitchell in Trenton? That's amazing to hear! Was that in the trial? Why in the world would (Walsh, was it?) the stick poke have been lied about? I can't see the purpose. Thanx for the info. (We 'd better play "truth or dare" more often)
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Aug 11, 2006 15:27:47 GMT -5
Oh Mairi--Hello! Ellis got the bullet from Dr. Mitchell in the Robert Brewer Case!!!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 11, 2006 15:50:11 GMT -5
There was no beveling found, was there?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 11, 2006 16:11:37 GMT -5
Good grief Rick!! You had me mortally scrambled there. Much gratitude for the clarification! Will say I find it difficult to think of a bullet rambling around , without exit, in the skull of a baby. (changed my mind, don't think I'll play 'truth or dare" again .)
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 15, 2006 20:03:04 GMT -5
I am still reading away on kidnappings, specifically ones that occurred prior to the LKC and back to the Ross case. One thing that has really surprised me so far is that in the majority of kidnappings involving children and infants, the victims have murdered or presumed dead. It seems`that adult victims stood a far better chance of being returned alive. I guess this surprises me because I incorrectly assumed the opposite would be the case. My thinking was that a child and especially an infant would be less likely to be able to id their abductor(s). Obviously I was wrong. But still I wonder why? Any ideas?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 17, 2006 6:35:59 GMT -5
It looks like the JonBenet case has finally been solved:
Former teacher confesses to '96 slaying of JonBenet. Family rejoices at lifting of "umbrella of suspicion" By Kevin Simpson Denver Post Staff Writer
A 41-year-old man arrested in Thailand Wednesday has admitted to killing 6-year-old JonBenét Ramsey, the head of Thailand immigration police said, adding a sudden, shocking twist to the sensational 1996 Boulder case that cast suspicion over the girl's parents.
John Mark Karr, who once lived about 35 miles from the Ramseys' suburban Atlanta home, admitted to the killing after he was arrested at his Bangkok apartment Wednesday night, Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul said.
Suwat said Karr arrived in Bangkok on June 6 from Malaysia to look for a teaching job. It was not clear whether he got a position, the police officer said.
Karr will be taken to Boulder within the next week, where he has been charged with murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault, Ann Hurst, Department of Homeland Security attaché at the American Embassy in Bangkok, said at a news conference in Bangkok.
Karr also appeared at the news conference but did not say anything.
Michael Tracey, a journalism professor who did documentaries about JonBenét, was contacted by Karr and the two communicated over a two-year period, University of Colorado spokesman Barrie Hartman said.
Several weeks ago, the e-mails became so disturbing to Tracey that he went to the Boulder district attorney. Authorities traced Karr to Thailand using his e-mail address, Hartman said. Tracey could not be reached for comment.
Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy's office confirmed an arrest in the Dec. 26, 1996, slaying of JonBenét after what it called "several months of a focused and complex investigation," but offered no details on the suspect.
An official with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation said that Karr, a former teacher in California, already has a criminal record of sex offenses in Southern states near his former homes in Alabama and Georgia.
Both John and Patsy Ramsey were consulted in the course of the investigation, according to the DA, who has called a news conference for this morning.
Patsy Ramsey died June 24 in Atlanta after a long battle with ovarian cancer.
The Ramseys contended that an intruder killed their daughter, even as investigators put the parents under an "umbrella of suspicion" for the slaying. JonBenét, whose image danced endlessly across tabloids and television screens in beauty-pageant costume, had been found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family's Boulder home.
Although authorities collected DNA samples from JonBenét, none matched family members or anyone else tested.
Some critics said the initial investigation had been irreparably botched and they doubted JonBenét's killer would be found.
The Ramsey family welcomed the news of the arrest while those close to them viewed it as exoneration.
"Patsy was aware that authorities were close to making an arrest in the case and had she lived to see this day, would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today's development almost 10 years after our daughter's murder," John Ramsey said.
Asked whether he knew the suspect, he told 9News that "to my knowledge, no, I didn't," but stressed that he didn't yet know enough and that the justice system should be allowed to run its course.
Family attorney L. Lin Wood said the Ramseys had previously passed authorities information about Karr, but declined to elaborate.
In January 2001, Karr gained clearance to work as a substitute teacher in Sonoma County in northern California, according to Superintendent Carl Wong. Over three months, he worked at a dozen elementary schools.
In April 2001, the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department notified the district that Karr had been arrested in a "non-school- related incident." His teaching stint ended as a criminal case against Karr unfolded.
For two years, Dennis Riley rented a house in Petaluma to Karr, his wife and their three kids.
"To me, he was a normal person," Riley said.
But authorities told him they'd been watching Karr for some time, and they secured the landlord's permission to look through Karr's belongings shortly before the family moved.
Riley said police confiscated a computer. "They said he was out living another life," he recalled.
Sonoma County authorities charged Karr with five counts of possession of child pornography in April 2001. When he failed to appear for a court date the following December, a warrant was issued for his arrest.
"We have had no contact with him since," said Sgt. Rob Giordano of the sheriff's department.
Some time after that, Karr left for Thailand. Thai police said they arrested Karr at his Bangkok apartment at the request of U.S. authorities.
Thai officials disputed U.S. reports that Karr already was in custody on unrelated sex charges, but labeled him an "undesirable person" because of the accusations against him.
Lara Karr, the suspect's ex- wife, told San Francisco TV station KGO-TV that during the Christmas holidays of 1996, when the crime was committed, the couple were together in Alabama.
Karr's father, 85-year-old Wexford Karr of Atlanta, said his son had told him after his arrest in California that authorities suspected him in JonBenét's death.
But he said his son had never been in Colorado and had no connection to the crime except for his interest in writing about it.
"He researched everything he could about her," Wexford Karr said. "He wrote about the family. That was his undoing."
Renowned criminalist Dr. Henry Lee said Wednesday that JonBenét's killer must have known intimate facts about the family's Boulder home.
"It was somebody who had to know the family, where they lived, had to know her bedroom and had to know to move her body to the downstairs basement," said Lee, chief emeritus of the Connecticut Department of Public Safety's crime lab. He previously has consulted with Boulder authorities on the Ramsey case.
Pam Paugh, Patsy Ramsey's sister, said her phone had been "ringing off the hook" since the announcement of the arrest.
"We don't know anything, and we're just waiting to hear facts and answers," she said from her home in Roswell, Ga. "Who is it? Why did they do it? For 10 years I've been trying to answer those questions. Now, maybe I'll get some answers."
Paugh said the scene at her family's house reminded her of the scene after JonBenét's death. Family members are glued to the television, trying to find out as much as they can, she said.
Family attorney Wood said Wednesday's news underscores the parents' innocence amid lingering speculation.
"I am sure there were still doubts in the minds of individuals whose thinking had been poisoned against this family because of the years of false accusations," Wood said.
The Ramsey family left Boulder and eventually settled in Charlevoix, Mich., where they had long kept a seasonal home. As the news of the arrest spread, the town erupted with elation, said one resident.
In Boulder, college students who turned onto 15th Street Wednesday afternoon slapped high-fives when they found the Ramseys' former residence.
Fed by news of the overseas arrest earlier in the day, the throng of vehicles stopping or slowing at the house multiplied, much to the dismay of neighbors who share the street with the 79-year-old Tudor-style home.
"Not one day passes that people aren't looking at that place, and it's really getting old," said Daniel Turner, 34, who lives across the street from the former Ramsey home, which is vacant and for sale for $1.69 million.
"I just want things to be normal," he added. "It hasn't been normal here for a decade."
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Staff writer Kevin Simpson can be reached at 303-820-1739 or ksimpson@denverpost.com.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 17, 2006 9:55:10 GMT -5
"He Said/ She said": It aint over til the Fat Lady Sings.......
Karr's ex-wife, Lara Karr, told KGO-TV in California that she was with her former husband in Alabama at the time of JonBenet's killing and she does not believe her former husband was involved in the homicide.
She said her ex-husband spent a lot of time studying the cases of Ramsey and Polly Klaas, who was abducted from her Petaluma, Calif., home and slain in 1993.
Karr on Thursday refused to say what his connection was to the Ramsey family. An attorney for the Ramsey family said Wednesday that Karr once lived near the family in Conyers, Ga.
Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul, head of Thailand's immigration police, said Karr confessed to the killing after his arrest by Thai and U.S. authorities Wednesday at his downtown Bangkok guesthouse.
Suwat said Karr insisted that JonBenet died during a kidnapping attempt that went awry.
"He said it was second-degree murder. He said it was unintentional," Suwat said. "He said he loved this child, that he was in love with her. He said she was very pretty, a pageant queen. She was the school star, she was very cute and sweet."
Suwat quoted Karr as saying he tried to kidnap JonBenet for a $118,000 ransom but that his plan went awry and he strangled her.
JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family's home in Boulder, Colo., on Dec. 26, 1996.
Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note in the house demanding $118,000 for her daughter.
Images of the blonde girl competing in child beauty pageants helped propel the case into one of the highest-profile mysteries in the United States.
DNA was found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and inside her underwear, but Lin Wood, the family's longtime attorney, said two years ago that detectives were unable to match it to anyone in an FBI database.
A law-enforcement source told the AP on condition of anonymity that Karr had been communicating periodically with somebody in Boulder who had been following the case and cooperating with law-enforcement officials.
A University of Colorado spokesman, Barrie Hartman, said journalism professor Michael Tracey communicated with Karr over several months and contacted police. The university spokesman said he didn't know what prompted Tracey to become suspicious of Karr.
Tracey produced a documentary in 2004 called "Who Killed JonBenet?" A woman who answered the phone at a number under his name said he didn't live there anymore; his office phone mailbox was full.
Investigators said at one point that JonBenet's parents were under an "umbrella of suspicion" in the slaying, and some news accounts cast suspicion on JonBenet's older brother, Burke. But the Ramseys insisted an intruder killed their daughter, and no one was ever charged.
Over the years, some experts suggested that investigators had botched the case so thoroughly that it might never be solved. The Ramseys moved back to Atlanta after their daughter's slaying.
"It's been a very long 10 years, and I'm just sorry Patsy isn't here for me to hug her neck," Wood said.
"John and Patsy lived their lives knowing they were innocent, trying to raise a son despite the furor around them," he told MSNBC.
The Ramseys learned that police were investigating Karr at least a month before Patsy Ramsey's death from ovarian cancer, the family said.
In a statement Wednesday, John Ramsey said that if his wife had lived to see Karr's arrest, she "would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today's development almost 10 years after our daughter's murder."
Bob Raines, principal at Wilson Elementary School outside Petaluma, said he twice hired Karr as a substitute in second- and fourth-grade classes in 2001. After observing him, Raines said he concluded Karr hadn't been trained, had poor skills keeping classes focused and was ineffective.
[now heres a normal guy with no mental issues?]
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 17, 2006 17:33:51 GMT -5
Rick. I certainly hope you didn't think I believe you would hear the fat lady singing away.
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Post by Michael on Aug 17, 2006 18:13:43 GMT -5
I know they wouldn't have flown there to pick him up if they didn't believe he was worthy of it..... One thing that worries me is his claim her death was "accidental." That just can't be. I think its going to boil down to the DNA. From what I've read DNA was found on JBR that didn't match anyone in the house. If it matches this dysfunctional then its over....
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Post by Michael on Aug 18, 2006 5:07:09 GMT -5
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 19, 2006 7:10:33 GMT -5
Possibly another case that never dies.
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Post by Michael on Aug 19, 2006 8:11:11 GMT -5
I am trying not to think about this case too much so I don't distract myself from this one.... However, its a hard thing to do. I just read where one of the original investigators claimed there were spider-webs blocking that open basement window and no footprints outside of it in the snow.
I am going to stop while I am ahead.
Let me say this... The Prof who this guy emailed may have accidentally supplied him with enough inside info over the years for him to at least formulate some sort of insider 'knowledge' in order to appear creditable.
I don't know. It reminds me of a fireman who sets fires so that he can respond to put them out and save the day.
Let's see where it goes. Hopefully the FBI gets in on this because I, quite frankly, don't trust anyone else. They made a mistake with Jewell but they corrected it - I wonder what locals would have done in that situation?
I've got to stop now.
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Post by Deester on Apr 26, 2007 21:56:39 GMT -5
Definite similarities with the JonBenet Ramsey case.
P.S. What's the connection to Summit, NJ? I grew up in Summit, and went to Summit High School.
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