kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Feb 21, 2006 8:01:42 GMT -5
Lighten up? Take a good look at you and your "friends" posts. I think you are asking the wrong person.
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Post by carol on Feb 21, 2006 13:45:16 GMT -5
Yes, I'd like to know what Rita's "condition" is too. Or is it that she disagrees with you and you don't like that?
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Post by rita on Feb 21, 2006 16:15:49 GMT -5
Thanks Kathy He may be refering to a family trust situation I posted on Allen's obedience training board. Hickman challenged me that if CAL Jr had an insurance put on him by CAL, and he dissapeared the police would have known, and taken action against him. I corrected him on that because I had a large trust given by my grandfather, but they should have awarded purple hearts with these trusts. You could also buy a life insurance on another person without their knowledge, and it would be paid to the beneficiary on the death without disclosure of the beneficiary name, and this happened to my mother.
In regards to my trust, when I reached seventh grade with staight A+'s, I was cosidered for advancing to college which would have started payout of my trust, but family greed took over and a friend of my brother hit me in the head with a brick at school. The brick took me out of action for several years leaving the trust in the hands of my father and brothers who conviently moved 3,000 miles away while wineing and dining on the insurances and trust I never recieved a penny from.
Actualy the story gets worse but I bring up this episode to call attention to family discention, which can be deadly at times, and compare it to what parelels might occur in the Lendbergh Case. Lindbergh played deadly games like my brother, Lindbergh gave Bud Gurney tupentine, my brother fed me a bottle of asperins. My brother kills the canary grandfather gave me, and CAL plays a kidnap joke on CAL Jr., but was this really a joke (cleaned Nursery Room)? I'll bet both CAL and my brother used to enjoy pulling wings from butterflys, and there is still the question about an insurance possibly puchased in another name, as the one my family purchased on me? Notice how efficient the law is in these casses, as my mother has an anonymous policy before she dies, then I get wacked in the head with a brick after someone put an extra policy on me. Allens board believes there are personel guardians (still waiting) to every law, and nothing else can happen outside of their perspective. Rita Witt
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Post by carol on Feb 21, 2006 18:01:07 GMT -5
You don't have to tell me about families and inheritances. I've been trying to get what's left of what my mother willed to me for the last seven years and it's still in the courts. The problem: the executor stole most of it.
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Post by rita on Feb 21, 2006 18:58:51 GMT -5
Thanks Carol I've had strong suspicions on the parelels in this case, and a common connection to Lindbergh by way of Lindbergh's Chase pilot Don Keyhoe. We had threats mailed to my parents, and sniper attacks occured against my family and in particular my brother and I. Because of my age I don't know how my parents were acquainted with Police inspector Bill Keyhoe, but he investigated the shootings and threat letter which he claimed to be identical to the threat made to Lindbergh. Bill and Don Keyhoe if not identical were close twins, and their houses reflected this both having pianos with Lindbergh's Pictures displayed, and heavy album of pictures with Lindbergh. The whole explanation is extremly long, but Bill was friends all those many years. I am trying to find information on the surgeon who had the private hospital near our house that new Dr. Carel. She was extremly briliant research surgeon who developed new surgical procedures.
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Post by rick for rita on Feb 22, 2006 0:07:29 GMT -5
Well, the prosecution of BRH went over every financial transaction they could find to try and show he had spent exactly $50K between the snatch and the arrest. Hasnt anyone looked carefully at CALs financial situation during the exact same period? Maybe CAL could not raise the $50K himself and maybe Condon did need to withhold the $20K so CAL would have cabfare back to Hopewell? I dont understand why Anne and Ma Morrow didnt spring for the ransom in 24 hours? They were sitting on $30 million. They sat on thier hands while Evalyn Walsh McClean blew $104K on Gaston Means.
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Post by kathy for rick on Feb 22, 2006 6:56:22 GMT -5
Another mystery of this case! Ma did offer and CAL said no. Anne makes Anna look liberated in her marriage.
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Post by rick for kathy on Feb 22, 2006 11:03:44 GMT -5
Kathy/ Yes/ Did CAL really want to get Charlie back or just appear to "fake it" and act dumb? At first CAL wants to assemble a Military Headquaters at Sorry Hill? This might have gotten the perps attention? And since the perps dont know that CAL didnt read the nursery note for 2 hours they must have thought "Well, hes not paying attention and does not want to deal"? OR "CAL is going out of his way to disrespect us, and capture us, so he does not want Charlie back"? Then on top of that, CAL, the man who "does not want to catch the crooks, but only insure the return of Charlie," (end quote) enlists the aid of Organized Crime bosses to ferret out any Al Capone connection? Yikes, this violoates the Spirit of Charlies Return as well. Probably about this point, Charlie catches a bullet in the head? It only goes downhill from there as CAL and Breck spend the next week enlisting the aid of John Patriot Condon, instead of paying the ransom for Charlies safereturn. It takes John another week of "mony is ready" postings to meet w/ CJ and 'convince him and the gang to stay in the hunt for the ransom"? Instead of raising the ransom money immediately and advertising for a quick exchange, CAL plays military Colonel and Jr. Detective for weeks and weeks insuring Chalries demise. CAL did not have Charlies return as a priority until it was way too late. By then he had paid for a blackened skeleton thrown out into Mt. Rose Hill Road. CAL was his own worse enemy. Clearly a personality flaw.
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Post by carol on Feb 22, 2006 14:22:05 GMT -5
Rick,
What if it was all prearranged? Lindbergh and all the other players knew Charlie was dead and the whole thing was a show, maybe for the public or the press.
I'm not saying I believe this, but I was just wondering.
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Post by rick for carol on Feb 22, 2006 15:55:57 GMT -5
Carol....knowing all we know right now it would be possible to "create" or "imagine" a scenerio that accounts for all or most of the mysteries and still is pre planned. It might go hypothetically like this:
1. Charlies medical condition worsens after New Years and the family worries about seizures or worse. 2. Dr. Carrel agrees to apply a new surgical drainage technique to bring him back to perfect as suggested by Rita. 3. Sharpe and Whateley are sent into the Bronx to find a band of fake kidnappers to act as a cover. 4. the plan is cooked and ready for 1 March 32. 5. Charlie heads back to Englewood w/ Ellerson. 6. Charlie heads to Medical facility with Red. 7. Someone, maybe Wendel delivers the note and ladder. 8. CAL takes over from here at 9pm. 9. Something goes very wrong in surgery and Charlie dies 21 days later? 10. Its too late to turn back now/ its outta CALs control. 11. Everyone searches for an end game. 12. All is well until Fisch heads out for Leipsig.
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Post by Michael on Feb 22, 2006 19:07:44 GMT -5
After researching for as long as I have I began to look closely at some of the letters sent in to Lindbergh, Schwarzkopf, Wilentz, etc. But what I have been really interested in were the letters written to the Governor and Fisher. I have a feeling there might be something there in one of all those crank correspondences or at least a real lead.
Anyway, I stumbled upon a letter sent to Lloyd Fisher where it says Charles Jr. had died @ 1:30PM on March 1st of "a broken neck." It also said there had been blood at the bottom of the stairs which implies to me it was an accident.
I will try to share these things from time to time when I think it applies, that is unless everyone thinks its a waste of time.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Joe on Feb 22, 2006 21:20:31 GMT -5
Michael, the letter to Fisher sounds pretty lame to me.
Unless you can believe the child, having died at 1:30 in the afternoon and Lindbergh, as opposed to being tracked down and notified immediately, was able to proceed through his day as scheduled, arriving home at 8:25 pm, to find his son unexpectedly and very dead for the previous seven hours.
On this one, we don't even have to mention Hauptmann's stamp of identity on the physical evidence that clearly marks his involvement from beginning to end.
There must be hundreds, if not thousands of these types of letters. No peace for the truly victimized.
Joe
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Post by rita on Feb 23, 2006 0:25:06 GMT -5
To Michael, Joe I think any real kidnapper would have known that the fame surrounding Lindbergh would have produced difficulty in relating even communicating their demands if real. The unbelievable part occurs when no attempt to call, which would be the only way to immediately identify themselves, their demands, and to verify the child is alive. Another simple method would have been to mail a picture with demands, and that was not done either. The whole idea of looking for intermediaries, cemetary meetings, and anonymous persons delivering messages implies a truly phony kidnap with unbelievable staging scenarious. Weren't the kidnappers concerned about how long they could keep the child concealed?
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Post by rita on Feb 23, 2006 0:38:27 GMT -5
Rita for Rick It seems to imply that Morrow's didn't belive the kidnap. It could also mean they knew what happened, and didn't want to become involved in whatever CAL did. I don't believe the buried gold certificate story, and think it was promoted as an after thought, because they knew they would never be found. I think they made up the first ransom note to include a box that could fool whatever extortionist they dfound into grabing the box with a short count, since there was no child to barter for, and the only reason for the charade was to find a person to take the box and blame.
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Post by rita on Feb 23, 2006 1:44:17 GMT -5
Rita to Carol Executers are a problem in probate, and judges will try to give them prority rights. After reading the kidnap story and the different sites that have information, it is a good idea to go back over the events and reread the suspicious statements, while taking them apart for believability, plus how they relate to probable victem and perpetrator statements, as if they seem like real reactions and reponses? Once you look at the case in that way there are an incredible number of deceptions, improper actions, and illogical events, that point back to the beggining of the kidnap story.
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2006 6:50:31 GMT -5
Rita,
You make some good points although I do believe the symbol was the supposed way to immediately identify the group.
Joe,
I didn't say I believed the letter. Who am I to dismiss this letter completely? Maybe one of us has something they're working on and this helps? I was simply trying to compliment the discussion and inject the existence of letters which I believe among the thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) there might be a clue or two that had been overlooked. It's something to think about.
I am finding more and more that Police were, for example, checking handwriting and if it wasn't the same pretty much were dismissing a connection to this case. If you believe there were multiple parties involved here, as I do, then this shouldn't have been done. After all, these people didn't take turns writing the notes.
People who contacted the Police or who the Police were referred to often possessed information from hearsay. Many times they had some facts incorrect and already from jump-street were being dismissed by the Authorities. This too is a mistake in my opinion.
For example, a wife overhearing her husband may put 2 & 2 together but also combine it with other information either in assumption or unconsciously. The Police reluctantly go to the house, check the husbands handwriting, say something like "I knew we were wasting our time" and leave.
Since I believe the table piece is legit, I look at the handwriting and see it isn't Hauptmann's. That's what the Police did too so they filed it under "BS" and threw it into storage. Mark did what they should have done and I ask myself how many times the Police did this during their investigations and wonder if they didn't have one of the Confederates and gave him a clean bill of health.
I do think if this was an accidental crime then you will have a real hard time explaining Hauptmann's involvement. I think if you do believe he was involved, at any level, then again - how does that disqualify anyone else?
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Post by kathy for michael on Feb 23, 2006 7:05:22 GMT -5
thank you for those posts! there is a perception that if people KNEW they would have talked. communication wasn't in those days as today nor were people empowered as today. We were still a very rural world in that time. I think of the vatican today and its secrecy. maybe Violet's death was an example. I think she was too fragile to have participated successfully in any plot but the staff at the Morrow's seem pretty tight. If she thought she had helped (even surreptitously) she might have fallen apart, hence the suicide. I think Bob Mills maybe on the right track. How ironic that CAL was so gung-ho in protecting the staff. Maybe they all knew about the brother!
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Post by rick on Feb 23, 2006 12:30:52 GMT -5
The Official Version of the kidnapping as described in 1932 and the Trial is simply an impossibility. More exculpating evidence was left out than let in--practically none. Jonney Cochran would have had a field day with the footprints and fingerprints. Clearly something happened in the Nursery that weekend--something that needed to be cleaned up and buried. CAL did everything possible NOT to negotiate with the Bronx Blackmailers for 4 weeks. If he was stalling for time--then Condon was his main man. Real kidnappers do not want to babysit for a month or even a week. The complex Symbol was ignored until time ran out. The ransom was available in 24-48 hours easy.
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Post by Elyssa on Feb 23, 2006 13:26:26 GMT -5
Michael, what is this letter you are talking about? who was it sent to? when was it sent? where was it sent? and where was it sent from? tell me more, more, more.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Feb 23, 2006 13:32:30 GMT -5
"Clearly something happened in the Nursery that weekend--something that needed to be cleaned up and buried."
But I thought you asserted that the child could not have been dead since 3/1 ??
"Real kidnappers do not want to babysit for a month or even a week."
True, but then most kidnappers have a live captive.
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Post by Michael on Feb 24, 2006 5:59:38 GMT -5
Elyssa,
I may try to scan and see how it turns out. If its readable I'll post it. If not I'll type it out, however, there are some words I can't make out.
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2006 10:49:25 GMT -5
Elyssa, Try this link. Kevin and I are toying around with the idea of a new photogallery. If it works I will post the details in the members section so Members will know how to look up and post images. Stay tuned.....
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Post by steve romeo on Feb 25, 2006 15:54:58 GMT -5
i feel very sorry for anna, who after the exicution chose to stay in this country rather then go back to germany, like alot of people that time thought she would. it ended up the right choice considering the war coming up. i also feel anna knew nothing about the crime ad her husbands involvment. robert bryan her lawyer worked hard in clearing hauptmanns name but couldnt. when i met him he told me she cried alot. her husbands death might have had a lasting effect on her. i also feel sorry for and admired ann lindbergh, she lost her father, sister, her baby in that span of time, and dealt with a crazy drunk brother
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Post by ELYSSA on Feb 25, 2006 16:39:16 GMT -5
Michael, this is what I make out on the letter let me know if I'm reading it right. There is a tree stump near Lindbergh home go and check you might find something in ash shute in _____? ____? and two blood spots at bottom of stairs .Jafsie had the sleeping suit with him when he came up try to __(SOFTEN)__? up Please don't____ ? _____?and don't let this out or __(LIKE)_____? _(IT)__? Ollies suicide. The kid died 1:30 pm March 1 of broken neck. Please don't think______? of AM ______? causing. DID I FILL IN THE BLANKS RIGHT AND CAN ANYONE ELSE FILL IN THE OTHERS, YOU'RE RIGHT IT'S HARD TO READ.
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2006 18:50:32 GMT -5
This is how I read it.... I can't figure out what goes in those blanks.
There is a tree stump near Lindbergh home go and check you find something. Also in ash shute in fire place and two blood spots at bottom of stairs .
Jafsie had the sleeping suit with him when he came up try to soften up
Please don't overlook and don't let this out or _________ The kid died 1:30 pm March 1 of broken neck.
Please don't think _____________
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Post by elyssa on Feb 26, 2006 11:56:17 GMT -5
When did Ollie die? and how? I can't remember and don't have access to books at this time.
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Post by kanneedwards on Feb 26, 2006 14:59:37 GMT -5
Elyssa, he died between the time the baby was found and the trial i think he bled out from a stomach ulcer. i'll try to fund the exact facts if you want. kathy
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2006 21:05:20 GMT -5
His Doctor, Ralph Belford, told Stockton that he died in May '33 just before his wife returned from her trip. He was operated on and found to have a large area of his stomach and intestines affected by "Peritonitis." The operation failed and he died a couples of days later.
I have been searching for the last hour or so trying to nail down the exact day but I haven't had any luck yet. I know it has to be somewhere....
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Post by rita on Feb 28, 2006 1:07:42 GMT -5
I read that Don Keyhoe was visiting with Anne that afternoon, and that he reported someone looking in the window that scarred them. Was this a true event, or was the story just another story of deception they were realy good at? Did Lindbergh have racketeer friends, or did the racketeers just come to his aid out of sympathy for his lost son? I've heard that the Morrow family had most of the family dyeing in the years following the kidnap, and am wondering who was the main benefactor of their money?
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Post by Michael on Feb 28, 2006 22:19:42 GMT -5
I read this somewhere Rita.....I can't recall where or when this was supposed to have happened at the moment but it strikes me as being true. I also remember the person looking in the window happened to be black.
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