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Post by rick on Feb 18, 2006 17:28:33 GMT -5
What planets come into perfect allignment on Tuesday March 1st that have never been present before? Keep in mind it poured rain all day and was a windy nite so its not good weather for a trek down Featherbad lane.
1. It is a weekday nite in Hopewell, all other weekdays are spent at the fortress in Englewood. 2. Betty Gow is driven to Sorrel Hill in the afternoon by Ellerson? Normally Miss Root, Breckenridges debutant step daughter is minding Charlie? 3. Betty Gow had a date with Red Johnson that evening in Englewood/ 4 CAL will be busy at the NYu dinner.
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Post by Michael on Feb 18, 2006 17:36:41 GMT -5
I don't see the difference as to whether CAL is downstairs with the rest of them or not. I see no significance. It makes no sense either way.
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Post by rick for michael on Feb 18, 2006 18:05:23 GMT -5
Michael: where is downstairs? If you mean that it doesnt make any difference whether CAL in at the NYU Banquet or in Hopewell...then I agree, it doesnt seem to matter either way...cause Charlie is gone by then/
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Post by Michael on Feb 18, 2006 20:07:13 GMT -5
I agree that he was gone by then and that it wouldn't have mattered to these people. Their approach is impossible to start with and we are supposed to believe their main concern is if Lindy is home?
No one, in my opinion, could have blindly walked into this situation and walked away like they did without help.
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Post by rick on Feb 18, 2006 20:54:09 GMT -5
Yes, my half-baked theory counts on CAL coming home and not checking on Charlie. I think it would have been out of character for him to do so under his own rules. (but thats only if he isnt an unindicted co-conspirator) The NYU dinner is a wash....this clearly can not be the key that everyone is waiting for....it was unlikely that whoever abducted Charlie would have been reading the NYU Banquet Page anyways. I think CAL missing the dinner is as strange as Charlie gone missin/
"The Case of the 2 Missing Charlies"
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Post by elyssa on Feb 28, 2006 12:52:02 GMT -5
Why March 1st? Because Charlie was severely injured the day before and placed in the care of a trusted friend or medical person. The Lindberghs need a reason for not returning to Englewood as they normally would. Let's say the baby is to sick to travel (not really a lie), and let's say Anne needs Betty's help (maybe Betty was called there to care for Anne), and to help carry out the planned story,( Anne may break down and tell the truth unless Betty is there to do the talking and throw in some convincing extras) {night shirt with blue thread}
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 28, 2006 13:21:54 GMT -5
Why does a severely injured child, or as some would have it, a handicapped child require the invention of an elaborate kidnapping scheme involving countless individuals and guarantying massive and prolonged publicity? Don't you think that powerful and wealthy people have better and less public ways of dealing with these things? It has been done many times before, just look at Joe Kennedy.
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Post by carol on Feb 28, 2006 14:27:04 GMT -5
Yikes -- I have to agree with Kevkon here. If the child had been injured accidentally and then died, or had died due to whatever health problems he had, there would have been no reason to create an elaborate kidnapping hoax. All the Lindberghs would have needed to do was tell the press that he had died and the cause of death, which I'm sure would have been met by much sympathy and that would have been it. IMO, something else happened and it is directly linked to Lindbergh's belief in eugenics.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 28, 2006 15:30:02 GMT -5
Agree / Agreed. Lindbergh would have been one of the last people in America to voluntarily invite the police, press and public to his front door. By telling Whateley to call the police, he had immediately grasped the urgency of the situation and realized this was one situation he would not be able to overcome on his own.
Carol, even if what you're suggesting had taken place with Carrel, again, why go to such great lengths as a kidnapping hoax? The very process of conscripting a kidnapping-for-hire gang or pulling off a a do-it-yourself plan through a chain of participation of well known and respected family and public figures would be perilous at best. I cannot see Breckinridge for example, even consider participation. And the physical evidence still nails Hauptmann dead to rights.
The history of medical advancement is fulled with successes and failures. Would not the explanation that a failed emergency medical procedure (to correct whatever condition might have existed) have been far more logical? I don't believe this situation even presented itself, but surely there are more dignified, practical and self-healing ways of dealing with a failed attempt to better the quality of the life of a loved one.
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Post by Michael on Feb 28, 2006 23:11:42 GMT -5
Well unless this conspiracy is so well thought out and planned to the extent that Whateley is involved then we must accept his sincerity in purchasing a thermometer for the baby on 2-29 telling the clerk he needed it for a sick child. The clerk recommended a rectal thermometer and Whatelely took his advice.
I disagree with Kevin's position because Kennedy obviously didn't have the beliefs, as Carol pointed out, in Eugenics that Lindbergh did. The snatch racket was in full swing and no one would suspect CAL if his beloved child was snatched. But if the child is inferior or defective well that is an embarrassment and a direct reflection on CAL even though he, according to one source, blamed the Morrows for it.
I am not saying this happened but I don't think it can't be dismissed without considering the other variables which existed.
I am still of the position this crime was intended for a week-end, probably the up-coming one, and the plans were changed on Monday.
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Post by rick for Michael on Mar 1, 2006 10:34:55 GMT -5
Michael, I must say that I am still intriqued by the statement that Charlie went "missing"?
At first blush this suggests that there is no idea who has him or how he dissappeared? or what time? Maybe Anne and Ollie didnt even lock the doors?
Is it possible that someone, inside the family or out, just walzed into Highfields, up the stairs, and walked right out with him? Unbeknownced to say Anne or Ollie on Monday or Monday nite?
Maybe this is how the whole ball got rolling on Tuesday/ I get the impression (?), that CAL is totally befuddled as to where to look for Charlie although he thinks he knows something? CAL becomes a loose cannon looking just about everywhere? To no avail/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 12:30:45 GMT -5
"I disagree with Kevin's position because Kennedy obviously didn't have the beliefs, as Carol pointed out, in Eugenics that Lindbergh did. "
Michael, I really think the linking of Eugenics with Lindbergh is a red herring. There has been a long parade of famous people who have been followers of Eugenics even to this day. The tenets of Eugenics do not state or imply the advocacy of euthanasia as a means to improving the human condition. That extreme concept was one adopted by the Nazis as they would often do to justify their perverse program of racial purity and the elimination of those they considered unfit. I have never seen a statement by Lindbergh advocating that extreme position. If some one has a specific example of him doing so please post it.
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Post by Michael on Mar 1, 2006 20:07:01 GMT -5
I have to disagree that it is a red-herring. We see multiple cases of his firm belief in the Master Race concept and went so far as to have children with the German Sisters because he wanted to do his part in assisting with the gene diversity within the Aryan population which had been devistated by War.
I have several examples, which I think you seek, that I have uncovered but I'd rather not make them public yet. One such example is much worse then I think anyone could ever imagine.
I have no doubt he was capable but I realize it doesn't mean he did.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 20:16:19 GMT -5
Are you saying that Lindbergh not only supported Eugenics but also went betond this and was an advocate of eradicating those deemed unworthy to live?
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Post by Michael on Mar 1, 2006 20:42:10 GMT -5
I believe this to be true - yes. I mean he didn't get on the radio and announce it over the airwaves but how many of us know people who are racist at heart but don't reveal it publicly?
Of course its debatable even with what I have uncovered, but that's my position. Again, it doesn't mean he acted on it but I won't rule it out.
There are people, for example, who still defend him as not being a sick sadistic prankster. They say the snakes in the sleeping blanket or the kerosene in the canteen were just "pranks" but I would argue they went beyond that.
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Post by rick on Mar 2, 2006 8:29:09 GMT -5
Gee Whizz Michael...could CAL be a pyschopath too? Dr. Dudley missed this completely.
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rick for elyssa and carol
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Post by rick for elyssa and carol on Mar 2, 2006 10:33:11 GMT -5
I would like to followup on the possiblity of Charlie getting injured in a fall, or hit by a car, or burned under the sunlamp? There may have been a some very good reasons why CAL did not want to publicise any injuries to Charlie. What if, the injuries could not be fully accounted for by a simple accident? What if someone, a family member or friends negligence was involved. What IF some issue of abuse or pranksterism was involved and Charlie got hurt. Lastly, what if Charlie did show signs of some congenital illness still not resolved even if it was only rickets--like a hearing defect. All these reasons might precipitate the events of a coverup as we know them. After all, Sharpe and Whateley were allegedly having coffee with Fisch at Mankes luncheonette for two months. Just what were they chatting about?
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Post by kanneedwards on Mar 2, 2006 11:38:45 GMT -5
rick, you're so funny! what if it was the brother who just took charlie. after constance's kidnap attempt, and this wasn't just a phone call, i've wonder why there weren't private investigators hired to follow up on this (maybe there were?) anyway if i had the resources that dwight SR did i'd feel alot safer sending my kids out knowing who is threatening them. i ve also wonder why the baby wasn't snatched being transported to and from school or up in the deep woods If charlie was "damaged" due to CAL's actions for example rough play or disipline or negligence like anne's flight withut o2 its not the sort of thing you would annouce to the world however sympathtic. now if the physican yu chose to "help" was doing experimental surgery in black robes and the baby died well why let the world know this either its not going to bring charlie back. after all this is said i agree the temple and condon were a little more involved and knew a little more thatn they should have. AND a simple "kidnapping" didn't have to turn inot extortion but it did and could have been anticipated thus the special symbol at the bottom. Whew enough said!
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Post by rick for kathy on Mar 2, 2006 17:24:28 GMT -5
Kathy, well all we can say is a few persons have done a very good job of keeping it a secret! Except for Violet Sharpe and Ollie Whateley that is--they werent given too much of a chance.
Someone passed Charlie out the window or down the stairs and we still arnt certain who that was, to where or exactly why? Dumping him back on the road (?) is mean and crude. Too bad its not the Mob/yet.
Today i was thinking about taking a 5-credit Pathology Course in the Med School in 1976. Leshmaniasis kept sticking in my head, but thats an infection. Then it hit me: Lesch-Nyhan Syndorome! I sure hope Charlie did not have this, its pretty awful. Symptoms include severe gout, poor muscle control, and moderate retardation , which appears in the first year of life. Later, during the second year, LNS shows signs of self mutilation--lip and finger biting. LNS is present at birth and only in boys.
CALs a pretty wierd dude? I hope we can eliminate shaken baby syndrome and SIDS before too long? It would be nice to have a discovery plan in mind but I think its going to proceed by quess and by golly?
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Post by rick for kathy on Mar 2, 2006 20:25:29 GMT -5
Kathy...Dwight Jr is still in the running? Bill Norris' e-book just hit the Web today and he mentions more than once the coincidence of Dwight wanting $50,000 for his legacy. So its a nice round number & somebody picked a ransom of $50K bucks as well? I like the Chapter where Bill gets run out of towne for inquiring about who in the Morrow family stayed in a Mental Institution in Beacon NY! CAL visited the place and Bill spotted his photo on the wall w/ the staff. I suppose it could be Charlie?
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Post by Michael on Mar 3, 2006 6:48:21 GMT -5
Rick,
I liked that part too!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 3, 2006 8:39:36 GMT -5
Notice that he didn't say he saw a photo of Lindbergh and the staff, or Lindbergh and the hospital staff. He said he saw a photo of Lindbergh posing with doctors and nurses. There is a huge difference. Lets be sure our magnifying lens is always on the same power no matter who is under it.
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You are entering a nospin zone
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Post by You are entering a nospin zone on Mar 3, 2006 10:41:05 GMT -5
Notice yet again how kev-con has a deep seated need to have the last word on every topic and its always with a decidedly negative (-) spin? [No psycho-pathology inferred]
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 3, 2006 10:54:42 GMT -5
"Notice yet again how kev-con has a deep seated need to have the last word on every topic and its always with a decidedly negative (-) spin? [No psycho-pathology inferred] "
And notice the lack of courage on the part of this poster and the fear evoked at the mear questioning of any statement, particularily if it in any way challanges his or her position. Is denial and ignorance your method of seeking the truth?
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Post by kathy for rick on Mar 3, 2006 12:02:04 GMT -5
I'm going back to read Bill's book today. i'm happy for him.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 3, 2006 15:44:00 GMT -5
If you would care to move this book into the fiction section I will gladly remove the post and apologize. However, as a non-fictional historical account I believe that it is fair to scrutinize this or any author's assertions. The author's reference to the photo of Lindbergh is not incidental. he uses it as a pin to connect Lindbergh with the hospital. Therefore it becomes an important part of his premise and as such it deserves to be examined. That is the price of making your views public as opposed to expressing them privately.
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Post by rick for kathy on Mar 3, 2006 15:48:41 GMT -5
Hi kathy, I really enjoyed reading the galley proofs of Bills book. It does a plot good to try and connect one the the Morrow family members to the snatch for a change. Maybe it could help to explain in part the rapid decline of sister Elizabeth's health over the next couple of years? Dwight was a lil touched in the head.
One might imagine with all the kidnappings going on in 1932 that CAL would have hired a guard & dog to prowl around at nite and listen for breaking ladders? This is almost a no brainer. It is fascinating to me that CAL came home within a few hours of the snatch. Certainly the servants would know that Charlie was "off limits" from 7-10 if helping the perps to abscond with the lil fella? Its hard to see how Dwight Jr. would find this out? But to suggest another twisted angle--What might have transpired if CAL would have gone to the NYU Banquet instead? Probably the nursery note would have been opened immediately?
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Post by Michael on Mar 3, 2006 21:25:07 GMT -5
Kevin,
It sounds like you have read Bill's book. Didn't you think it was odd they made him leave town?
Rick,
Lindbergh did have a Security Guard who he laid off on 11-1-31. He told the man the reason he was being laid off was because he did not want people to think he was afraid.
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Post by rick on Mar 4, 2006 8:08:19 GMT -5
Maybe 11-1 was when Ollie and Violet started having coffee with Fisch? Is there any way to check up on how Ollie would commute back and forthe to the Bronx or New Rochelle? Possibly he was riding w/ CAL? Cars were pretty rare except for Red Johnson of course? Also, I wonder what connection can be made between the Mersman table and Dwight Jr? AFter all if he made off w/ Charlie then "logically" one might surmise that he also left the ransom note and signature in the crib huh?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 4, 2006 8:36:19 GMT -5
Michael, Are we talking fiction or non-fiction here?
Mr Green or Mr Hyde, It sounds like you are really on to something there with the Mersman- Morrow connection! Perhaps a check on the sales receipts or factory records would reveal something.
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