|
Post by Michael on Mar 2, 2022 13:56:43 GMT -5
On pages 386-9 I discuss the topic of the Berryman sketch. Here is more food for thought that comes from Modern Mechanix December 1934:
|
|
|
Post by bernardt on Mar 2, 2022 16:23:32 GMT -5
Thank you, Michael BRH does not resemble the Berryman sketch well at all. Note chin, jaws, and eyes . We must look elsewhere.
|
|
hiram
Detective
Posts: 124
|
Post by hiram on Mar 2, 2022 23:07:33 GMT -5
Someone once suggested that John Mohrdieck resembles the Berryman sketch. Mohrdieck's jaw line and chin do resemble the sketch on this post. Mohrdieck also had "squinty eyes."
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
|
Post by Joe on Mar 19, 2022 8:39:08 GMT -5
Someone once suggested that John Mohrdieck resembles the Berryman sketch. Mohrdieck's jaw line and chin do resemble the sketch on this post. Mohrdieck also had "squinty eyes." Richard Hauptmann
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 19, 2022 10:40:35 GMT -5
I noticed you didn't post the original Berryman sketch. How come? See V2, Page 389.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
|
Post by Joe on Mar 19, 2022 12:27:14 GMT -5
I noticed you didn't post the original Berryman sketch. How come? See V2, Page 389. And I just noticed how you didn't comment that it does resemble Hauptmann, and like the others, was drawn before his arrest.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 19, 2022 14:52:23 GMT -5
I noticed you didn't post the original Berryman sketch. How come? See V2, Page 389. And I just noticed how you didn't comment that it does resemble Hauptmann, and like the others, was drawn before his arrest. Because, if you read V2, the sketch you posted didn’t become public for quite sometime later. It didn’t even make the Finn Liberty article. Why not? Why use the one that didn’t look like Hauptmann if there was one that did? Furthermore, why am I the only guy asking these questions?
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
|
Post by Joe on Mar 19, 2022 15:39:40 GMT -5
And I just noticed how you didn't comment that it does resemble Hauptmann, and like the others, was drawn before his arrest. Because, if you read V2, the sketch you posted didn’t become public for quite sometime later. It didn’t even make the Finn Liberty article. Why not? Why use the one that didn’t look like Hauptmann if there was one that did? Furthermore, why am I the only guy asking these questions? I certainly wasn't trying to pass it off as becoming public right away and for that matter, I put more stock in the fact it was drawn at Condon's direction. I know there are other versions out there, which I'd almost expect given the time that had passed between the encounters and their production. But he sure got this one right, and it would seem to fit most accurately within his original description. For the others, one looks older than a man in his early thirties and the other of all people, looks like his pal Kloppenburg. And while I mention similarities, have you asked yourself why Condon would have provided this accurate a description of Hauptmann if he was as you have said in "no doubt" terms, a confederate of the extortionists?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 19, 2022 19:29:06 GMT -5
Because, if you read V2, the sketch you posted didn’t become public for quite sometime later. It didn’t even make the Finn Liberty article. Why not? Why use the one that didn’t look like Hauptmann if there was one that did? Furthermore, why am I the only guy asking these questions? I certainly wasn't trying to pass it off as becoming public right away and for that matter, I put more stock in the fact it was drawn at Condon's direction. I know there are other versions out there, which I'd almost expect given the time that had passed between the encounters and their production. But he sure got this one right, and it would seem to fit most accurately within his original description. For the others, one looks older than a man in his early thirties and the other of all people, looks like his pal Kloppenburg. And while I mention similarities, have you asked yourself why Condon would have provided this accurate a description of Hauptmann if he was as you have said in "no doubt" terms, a confederate of the extortionists? Seriously? First of all, Condon identified several people who looked nothing like Hauptmann. When confronted with Hauptmann, what did he tell police? Hint: It's in my book. Not only that, he went to Florida to find a Patsy in Garelick. He said "John" was "dead." He invented the thumb. Honestly, how can you ignore this stuff? So please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting his description was more important then his very own actions. You never cease to amaze me with the overwhelming amount you must pretend not to see. Next, Berryman sketches were drawn according to Condon's description. Exactly how many do you think there were? I mistakenly posted earlier that the picture you posted wasn't in Finn's article but it was. That was the first time I saw it in print: October 1935. It was Peacock's unpublished manuscript that used the "original" sketch. That "original" sketch came out in the New York Times on September 23, 1934 alongside an article that quotes Cummings as saying it looked like Hauptmann. And its not the one you posted. Why not? If the one you posted looks like Hauptmann, why wasn't that the one which came out? I posted the profile sketch above. Does that look like Hauptmann? No. The frontal is in my book. Does that look like Hauptmann? Others may disagree, but I don't think so. So what we have are sketches that do not look like Hauptmann. And they're based on what Condon was telling him - right?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 19, 2022 19:33:58 GMT -5
According to Cummings, there was one sketch that was distributed to the Division Agents (FBI). The one above is what was in the NYT and Peacock's manuscript.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
|
Post by Joe on Mar 20, 2022 5:20:37 GMT -5
Come to think of it, at least the way I see it, the guy on the right just looks like a slightly older version of the first one. Could the right hand sketch have been an attempt to "age" CJ the required two plus years from the time of the cemetery encounters to the summer of 1934? I mean, wouldn't it be helpful to have an updated depiction of the person they were currently looking for?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 20, 2022 9:12:27 GMT -5
Come to think of it, at least the way I see it, the guy on the right just looks like a slightly older version of the first one. Could the right hand sketch have been an attempt to "age" CJ the required two plus years from the time of the cemetery encounters to the summer of 1934? I mean, wouldn't it be helpful to have an updated depiction of the person they were currently looking for? Once again, let me restate that Cummings said there was one sketch. I assume it was the combo of both the frontal and profile. The original profile looks nothing like anything. The original frontal is different when compared to the one that is presented to us as the original. What are the differences I see? First, both seem like a generic type sketch. With that said, the eyes seem more intense, ears seem smaller, lips appear smaller, and chin are different with the original being longer and pointier. As far as age goes, they look about the same to me its just that the finished product looks more "rugged" and "hardened." So what do I think went on here? I believe when Condon sat down, Berryman would create a preliminary sketch then show it to him. Condon would attempt to adjust it and the sketch was changed to accommodate. In the end, the one that was handed out was what Condon told Berryman looked like CJ. So what you are pointing to as looking more like Hauptmann was changed by Condon. There can be no doubt that the one on the left is unfinished. Look at it again. Then thumb through some of Berryman's professional works. What I guess happened is that once LE later got a hold of Berryman's entire folder of the project, they discovered some of his various sketches that led to the finished product, selected the one that they believed looked most like Hauptmann, then presented it as the original. They might have pulled it off if the actual completed sketch hadn't already been released (or leaked) immediately after Hauptmann's arrest. Of course one might also suggest it was sketched after Hauptmann's arrest, based on the timing of its public debut, but for me, it is clearly not a finished product. If someone was to go all out for something like this it would be. So its another grey area situation. Misleading on purpose but not a complete lie. The bigger question is why you don't put Hauptmann's photo alongside of the various people Condon originally identified or claimed looked like CJ? Or quote him when he TOLD Special Agent Turrou that Hauptmann was NOT CJ after seeing him in the line-up? So yes, I expect you to hold onto the version of the Berryman sketch you happen like with a death grip and ignore the problems with it - just like everything else.
|
|
|
Post by bernardt on Mar 20, 2022 10:56:28 GMT -5
The sketches were drawn as a combination of details given by both Condon and the taxi driver Perrone. I asked Mark Falzini about the sketches. He stated that both were authentic but that he did not know which had been drawn first.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,652
|
Post by Joe on Mar 20, 2022 13:28:43 GMT -5
I tend to agree Michael, that the left side sketch is something initially created to represent a basic outline of CJ's general features, and that the more polished right side drawing represents additional details, such as the high pronounced cheekbones, more of a hatchet shaped head, thinner lips, overall facial character, and as I mentioned earlier, approximately 2-1/2 years of additional aging.
|
|