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Post by scathma on Feb 8, 2018 12:00:33 GMT -5
IRS Agent Mike Malone's files: "Malone also played a key role in solving the “Crime of the Century” – the 1932 kidnapping and murder of the 20-month-old son of hero pilot Charles Lindbergh -- and left behind about 80 pages of daily investigative memos. The documents include details about Lindbergh’s diet, how out of agony he stopped shining his shoes, and how he took a machine gun to meet a hoaxer claiming to know the kidnappers. 'That’s completely unknown to history,' says Robert Zorn, one of the world’s leading experts on the case. 'These are the kind of details that put you on the ground with Lindbergh as he’s wrestling to solve this problem. I positively guarantee that this will forever change how this story will be viewed.”' Malone and the T-men convinced Lindbergh to pay the $50,000 ransom in rare gold certificates and documented bills, allowing investigators to painstakingly track every dollar that was spent. That forensic accounting -- detailed in one of Malone’s files -- helped authorities apprehend Bruno Richard Hauptmann, who was found guilty of kidnapping and murder and executed 1936." www.foxbusiness.com/features/2018/02/07/heir-discovers-long-lost-mob-files-in-new-jersey-crawlspace.html
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2018 15:36:51 GMT -5
'That’s completely unknown to history,' says Robert Zorn, one of the world’s leading experts on the case. 'These are the kind of details that put you on the ground with Lindbergh as he’s wrestling to solve this problem. I positively guarantee that this will forever change how this story will be viewed.”' Malone and the T-men convinced Lindbergh to pay the $50,000 ransom in rare gold certificates and documented bills, allowing investigators to painstakingly track every dollar that was spent." www.foxbusiness.com/features/2018/02/07/heir-discovers-long-lost-mob-files-in-new-jersey-crawlspace.htmlMalone was probably one of the bravest men who walked the face of the earth at the time. He was undercover for the most dangerous situations imaginable. In this case, he went undercover to the Birritella's church services. Many of his reports are signed "Pat O'Rourke" and there was a time back in the beginning of my research that I thought they were actually two different people. Great story that I don't want to pick apart but Malone didn't convince Lindbergh to do anything, and I have no idea what Zorn is talking about when he says "unknown to history." Perhaps unknown to him? Perhaps he is referring to something not mentioned in the article? I don't know. Maybe there is something unique among that material but from reading what is presented in this piece - there's nothing new as written.
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Post by scathma on Feb 8, 2018 18:17:09 GMT -5
This story made me wonder if someday a lost cache of documents like this might hold a key piece of documentation that would "forever change how this story will be viewed.”'
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2018 21:35:26 GMT -5
This story made me wonder if someday a lost cache of documents like this might hold a key piece of documentation that would "forever change how this story will be viewed.”' I hope for new stuff to turn up too... And it does from time to time. There may be something there - I certainly couldn't say without looking at it. I know that there are no reports on his Birritella investigations. That would be great! But the Treasury forensic reports are all at the NJSP Archives. The machine gun story is well known. We all know Irey threatened to quit if Lindbergh did not agree to the recorded serials, and there are so many accounts of Lindbergh being in a good mood, joyous, and joking around I've lost count. So it could just be that the story as written is lacking, and Zorn's comments are out of context.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 10, 2018 18:10:21 GMT -5
IRS Agent Mike Malone's files: "Malone also played a key role in solving the “Crime of the Century” – the 1932 kidnapping and murder of the 20-month-old son of hero pilot Charles Lindbergh -- and left behind about 80 pages of daily investigative memos. The documents include details about Lindbergh’s diet, how out of agony he stopped shining his shoes, and how he took a machine gun to meet a hoaxer claiming to know the kidnappers. 'That’s completely unknown to history,' says Robert Zorn, one of the world’s leading experts on the case. 'These are the kind of details that put you on the ground with Lindbergh as he’s wrestling to solve this problem. I positively guarantee that this will forever change how this story will be viewed.”' Malone and the T-men convinced Lindbergh to pay the $50,000 ransom in rare gold certificates and documented bills, allowing investigators to painstakingly track every dollar that was spent. That forensic accounting -- detailed in one of Malone’s files -- helped authorities apprehend Bruno Richard Hauptmann, who was found guilty of kidnapping and murder and executed 1936." www.foxbusiness.com/features/2018/02/07/heir-discovers-long-lost-mob-files-in-new-jersey-crawlspace.htmlThis article is merely a promo for the "Strange Inheritance" segment to be seen on FOX Business channel this coming Monday. I wouldn't expect too many new details, if any, about the LKC to be revealed on the show. Most of it will probably deal with organized crime in the 1920s and 1930s. I would guess that most us do believe that organized crime's role in the LKC was limited to characters like Rosner, Spitale, and Bitz trying to help out CAL Sr. in the week or two following the purported "kidnapping." Capone, who gets a lot of attention in "The Strange Inheritance" here, is almost certainly not a perp in the LKC. BTW, the writer of the article linked to at the top of this thread is remiss in calling Robert Zorn "one of the world's leading experts on the case." Zorn's theory, as put fort in his book "Cemetery John," does not pass the smell test for reasons discussed in other threads in this forum.
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Post by scathma on Feb 10, 2018 20:29:00 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2018 9:48:25 GMT -5
I might tune in just to check out Jamie Colby I am going to watch too. She was down here before at the Washington Crossing Museum. It's a good show for sure. I already saw in that clip where they showed a document. It was a little blurry but the date seemed to be November or December 1934. I think November. I know it's crazy but I can sometimes identify the document just by getting a glimpse like this. I think the unique material might be found in the correspondence. What I mean is that if Malone was writing to Irey. Stuff like that sometimes contain information not found in the official reports. I would really like to know if there are any written reports about his undercover work at the Birritella church. I would assume so and I would also think if there were he kept copies of them. As far as Zorn goes he did do research at the NJSP Archives. I know because I've seen him there myself. For me that means the world because so many of the "false prophets" who claim to be "Experts" have never been!!! But I honestly don't know what qualifies someone as an "Expert" on this case. For me, I never read his book because of just the few things I've seen quoted from it being so very wrong. I can't keep reading things that repeat the same old broken mistakes or invent new ones.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 21:36:51 GMT -5
So I watched the show. I wish they would have touched on the Lindbergh kidnapping more. I can't believe that Zorn didn't know about the machine gun on the boat when Lindbergh was sailing around with Curtis. I saw the name J.J. Faulkner on one!!
All those kidnappings documents. I hope they will be given to the NJSP archives. Michael, is there any chance you might be able to see those documents. You should be the one reviewing them, not Zorn!!!
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Post by Michael on Feb 12, 2018 21:48:05 GMT -5
Just a quick follow-up after watching the show.... Any hand-written documents which concern the kidnapping written by Malone are unique. There were some they flashed which are NOT at the NJSP Archives. Like I said before, any forensic report is at the NJSP Archives. In fact, most of the typed reports are there. When a report was typed there were usually several copies that went to whoever was in line for them. Involving the kidnapping, Schwarzkopf was on that list. Unlike the FBI, the Treasury Agents were on better terms with NJ. Wilson and Keaten became really good friends as a result of their joint investigations. However, if Malone (O'Rourke) made any typed reports about Birritella they are NOT at the Archives. It could be because what I have learned was that his undercover work there did not bear fruit, but if there were reports I'd love to read them. Anything involving Curtis or J.J. Faulkner is there. Zorn's claim that Lindbergh carrying a machine gun aboard the boat with Curtis was "unknown" to history is completely false. Obviously he believed that or he wouldn't have said it but anyone who has ever looked at that angle knew/knows about it. He obviously hasn't yet. It's in the State Police Reports, the Curtis notes he made for Herr/Fisher, in Fisher's letters, and it even came up during the Curtis trial in Flemington. All in all there is some unique material. If they had contacted Mark Falzini they probably wouldn't have had that much to reveal about the kidnapping angle. I am really surprised that wasn't their first call honestly. I think once finding original reports the feeling could be there aren't any copies because of the age/year written but that just isn't the case. Anyway, I hope he gets that medal he's trying to get for him because he deserved it. It's unbelievable the amount of risk Malone took and represents true dedication as a Law Enforcement Officer - at a level rarely seen - if at all. All those kidnappings documents. I hope they will be given to the NJSP archives. Michael, is there any chance you might be able to see those documents. Honestly, I wish Mark had that opportunity! Looks like he donated them to the Las Vegas museum. I am biased and believe all kidnap related material should be at the NJSP Archives but I guess that's a little unrealistic. Like I said though, unless it's hand-written it's most likely there already.
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Post by Michael on Feb 13, 2018 8:52:06 GMT -5
One source real quick so anyone who wasn't aware can see the story behind it. Capt. Lackmann--- (Can testify to):
That he [Lindbergh] brought his machinegun along so he could protect in case of an attempt to kidnap him - that his [sic] had been discussed. The other part that made me laugh was about Lindbergh being so sad that he stopped shinning his shoes! That might be in the documentation, I don't know, but I'd love to know the author. Fact is, according to everyone on that boat, Lindbergh was NON-STOP with the jokes and pranks. He teased Curtis so much about his hat that Curtis threw it in the ocean so the taunting would stop. What did Lindbergh do? He made Richard turn the boat around, retrieved the hat, then made Curtis continue to wear it. And the teasing started all over again. He pranked Bruce and Richard so many times they started locking their cabin doors. What did Lindbergh do? He used a skeleton key to invade their rooms, and one time even threw a full bucket of water on Richard while he was asleep. And don't forget what I wrote about in my book! Lindbergh "w as tired of hearing about the kidnapping to hell with same lets play cards." ( See TDC page 313) Sad? Distraught? "Do anything to find his son?" Are you kidding me? Does "anything" mean unless he wants to play cards or pull pranks? This trip with Curtis was a vacation for him. He wanted to get away from Highfields for a break. Look no further for his turning down the idea to use a plane, and instead, ordered a boat. He brought no money for anything, and asked Curtis to pay.
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Post by rebekah on Feb 13, 2018 20:26:57 GMT -5
So I watched the show. I wish they would have touched on the Lindbergh kidnapping more. I can't believe that Zorn didn't know about the machine gun on the boat when Lindbergh was sailing around with Curtis. I saw the name J.J. Faulkner on one!! All those kidnappings documents. I hope they will be given to the NJSP archives. Michael, is there any chance you might be able to see those documents. You should be the one reviewing them, not Zorn!!! I watched, too, and saw the J.J. Faulkner reference. Michael, I also saw the name Birritella. Yes, yes I did! Could you contact the man and see if he would let you have a look? He seems like a good guy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 21:07:59 GMT -5
I watched, too, and saw the J.J. Faulkner reference. Michael, I also saw the name Birritella. Yes, yes I did! Could you contact the man and see if he would let you have a look? He seems like a good guy. I hope Michael can get to see those documents too!!! I must have missed the one that had Birritella's name on it! I am super interested in that angle also. There is truly some kind of connection to the kidnapping that needs to be figured out regarding this couple.
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Post by Michael on Feb 14, 2018 8:31:52 GMT -5
The whole story is great really. There should absolutely be a book written on Malone. I would be the first guy to buy it. That is unless Zorn writes it because I think somehow Knoll, unknown to the world, was his partner or something. It is not my goal to be negative about the story because it is such a positive one about a true Hero. But let's look at what I remember: 1. There were 80 documents about the LKC
2. He believed Irey turned them over to Malone so the story could be told. These two things go hand-in-hand. If Irey turned over documents so the story could be told there would have been about 80,000 documents in that attic. Next, the foremost "expert" in the world on the case saw those documents, and is on the show discussing shoe shining and a machine gun - both of which are trivial. That's another thing that gets me. If you don't know anything about the case and tuned in, you turn off the set thinking that was all "true." Heck, that was the best expert on earth right? It's just not right to do that. You put a true expert out there like Mark Falzini. Or if not, introduce Zorn as an author or something that accurately describes him. What most people do not know is that the Coast Guard fell under Treasury Department at that time. So we have Treasury involvement in both the Nelly search and the Curtis vacation. Outside of that, we have Treasury involvement as it related to ransom money. That would include J.J. Faulkner. The fact that Malone went undercover at that church was an anomaly and why I'd like to see what his actual reports said. Now, was Malone the guy doing the accounting? No. Agent Frank did that, and it's why he testified in Flemington. Is it unusual that Malone would have copies, or even the originals of those reports? I say no to copies, and possibly yes to his originals. However, there were many copies made, and sometimes they were actually signed too. Again, I cannot evaluate something I haven't seen. What I can do is explain what I know from the 17+ years I've been going through this stuff at the Archives. His notes, and his correspondence are probably what's important as it concerns the history of the case. Earth shattering? Probably not. But new facts that shed light on certain things? Probably yes. Will I ever get to see them? I am going to go out on a limb here and say - no. However, if you saw how much material I've already seen, and actually own copies of you'd say "let someone else have a chance!"
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Post by wolfman666 on Feb 14, 2018 11:00:28 GMT -5
mike you forget theres a new York part of this case, had some battles trying to get documents in my hand one is I found who has the entire trial transcripts of the parker case, they wanted a fortune to copy the whole thing
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 14, 2018 12:00:46 GMT -5
The whole story is great really. There should absolutely be a book written on Malone. I would be the first guy to buy it. That is unless Zorn writes it because I think somehow Knoll, unknown to the world, was his partner or something. It is not my goal to be negative about the story because it is such a positive one about a true Hero. But let's look at what I remember: 1. There were 80 documents about the LKC
2. He believed Irey turned them over to Malone so the story could be told. These two things go hand-in-hand. If Irey turned over documents so the story could be told there would have been about 80,000 documents in that attic. Next, the foremost "expert" in the world on the case saw those documents, and is on the show discussing shoe shining and a machine gun - both of which are trivial. That's another thing that gets me. If you don't know anything about the case and tuned in, you turn off the set thinking that was all "true." Heck, that was the best expert on earth right? It's just not right to do that. You put a true expert out there like Mark Falzini. Or if not, introduce Zorn as an author or something that accurately describes him. What most people do not know is that the Coast Guard fell under Treasury Department at that time. So we have Treasury involvement in both the Nelly search and the Curtis vacation. Outside of that, we have Treasury involvement as it related to ransom money. That would include J.J. Faulkner. The fact that Malone went undercover at that church was an anomaly and why I'd like to see what his actual reports said. Now, was Malone the guy doing the accounting? No. Agent Frank did that, and it's why he testified in Flemington. Is it unusual that Malone would have copies, or even the originals of those reports? I say no to copies, and possibly yes to his originals. However, there were many copies made, and sometimes they were actually signed too. Again, I cannot evaluate something I haven't seen. What I can do is explain what I know from the 17+ years I've been going through this stuff at the Archives. His notes, and his correspondence are probably what's important as it concerns the history of the case. Earth shattering? Probably not. But new facts that shed light on certain things? Probably yes. Will I ever get to see them? I am going to go out on a limb here and say - no. However, if you saw how much material I've already seen, and actually own copies of you'd say "let someone else have a chance!" Michael, I agree with you that Malone should be honored posthumously by the US government for his outstanding contributions in some of these mob cases, risking his life to help bring some of these criminals to justice. But that doesn't imply necessarily that Malone' papers will reveal anything significant that we don't already know about the Lindbergh case. The "Strange Inheritance" show merely took the standard official line, that Malone's work helped in nabbing Hauptmann, and thereby "solving" the case. Whoever wrote the narrative of the film does NOT acknowledge at all that much controversy still exists - as expressed almost daily on these boards. Only a minority of us here would agree with the "Hauptmann did it alone" conclusion presented in the film. I would agree also that Zorn had nothing of substance to offer in this. IIRC, he stated that Lindbergh took a machine gun aboard the ships with Curtis (false), and said something about Lindbergh's diet diet and poor care of his shoes shoes. I would say that they chose Zorn to interview because he and his family have more attachment to the political establishment than other, more knowledgeable, Lindbergh case historians.
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Post by Michael on Feb 15, 2018 8:41:39 GMT -5
I would agree also that Zorn had nothing of substance to offer in this. IIRC, he stated that Lindbergh took a machine gun aboard the ships with Curtis (false), No, Lindbergh actually had it. He laid it down on the deck while he was playing cards instead of looking for his son. It's been a while since I've been through this material and I'd rather not go back into it until I am done with V2, but what I can tell you is that Lloyd Fisher seemed to think it was a big deal in more ways than one. First and foremost, he asserted it proved Lindbergh believed Curtis was dealing with the right people. Next, I recall that he was saying it was illegal for him to have possessed it. It wasn't his machine gun and had been given to him for protection. Again, this is coming from memory but I'm certainly not making that up. It should also be remembered that Lindbergh was also armed at St. Raymond's. The difference being that it was with a pistol and not a machine gun. This is all interesting stuff right? But does it change the way the case is viewed? Well, perhaps when looking more closely at Curtis. Like I wrote in TDC, if Lindbergh believed Condon, what was he doing with Curtis? Well, as I wrote, we know Curtis said a member of the staff was involved and that the front door was used. Since "history" paints a picture much differently then it is telling that Lindbergh accepted those facts. Seems Whateley accepted them too - but we know why now.
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Post by Michael on Feb 15, 2018 9:05:43 GMT -5
mike you forget theres a new York part of this case, had some battles trying to get documents in my hand one is I found who has the entire trial transcripts of the parker case, they wanted a fortune to copy the whole thing I haven't forgotten Steve. I was talking about Treasury Agent involvement. Treasury Department --> Internal Revenue Service --> Intelligence Division. And like I said, the Coast Guard fell under the purview of the Treasury Department at the time. As far as the Parker Case... Just their Federal Trial alone was almost 6 thousand pages. So yes, you would be looking at a hefty sum there. By the way, I have most of the transcripts to that. I also have most of the Geoghan's removal hearing although I ran out of room in my filing cabinets and had to put much of that on disk.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 15, 2018 10:10:51 GMT -5
I believe Lindbergh was clutching at straws when he latched onto Curtis after the 'Boad Nelly' no-show. Condon's ongoing involvement was now less important, other than to appeal to CJ via the papers for further direction. Lindbergh's attention naturally shifted to Curtis, who had always been able to provide just enough detail to keep his interest. Of course, Curtis' hoax quickly unraveled when CALjr's corpse was discovered on Mount Rose Road.
I have great difficulty believing Lindbergh would ever have even entertained Curtis' initial claim that he was in contact with the kidnappers, if Lindbergh himself had had any part whatsoever in his son's disappearance. It would be far too "close to home".. it's a scenario along the lines of the notion Lindbergh himself staged the kidnapping, knowing full well the world would immediately be beating a path to the doorstep of one of the most private celebrities on the planet. It wouldn't happen.
I'm not sure what you're concluding by bringing in Whateley here. If you're making points about a member of the household being involved, (apparently in his mind, Betty Gow), a scheme that Lindbergh would have had to have been a part of, why would Lindbergh, through his affiliation with Curtis and a similar but nebulous claim, have wanted to dance around a fire that could so easily consume him?
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Post by wolfman666 on Feb 15, 2018 11:36:07 GMT -5
at that time they didn't want to put it on a cdrom. I told them I am not paying that. hell, the lizzie borden trial is on a cd
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