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Post by Michael on Jan 20, 2018 8:58:39 GMT -5
We know from my book that Betty Gow lost interest in William Couttes because he wasn't saving his money and she didn't want to work for the rest of her life. We also know that Betty was not in love with Red, but that he was love with her. And finally, not only was Red "broke" but he was flat broke. Does anyone have any ideas as to why Betty would give Red the time of day?
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Post by rebekah on Jan 20, 2018 15:33:28 GMT -5
We know from my book that Betty Gow lost interest in William Couttes because he wasn't saving his money and she didn't want to work for the rest of her life. We also know that Betty was not in love with Red, but that he was love with her. And finally, not only was Red "broke" but he was flat broke. Does anyone have any ideas as to why Betty would give Red the time of day? I have a pretty good idea, but I'm a lady and cannot say.
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Post by Michael on Jan 21, 2018 9:15:05 GMT -5
I have a pretty good idea, but I'm a lady and cannot say. You are too funny! I think being alone in Maine and feeling abandoned by Lindbergh could account for her relationship there. My problem is, knowing the way she was, that it made little sense for her to continue it once she's back in Jersey. Look at Gow's personal goals and Red is the absolute opposite of that.
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Post by xjd on Jan 21, 2018 21:26:25 GMT -5
maybe she planed on the two of them coming into some money? one way or another?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 22, 2018 2:22:08 GMT -5
Did anyone ever determine how Red was able to obtain his new car?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 17:12:42 GMT -5
I think being alone in Maine and feeling abandoned by Lindbergh could account for her relationship there. Just so I am clear, when you say she felt abandoned by Lindbergh, might you be suggesting that there was an affair going on between CAL and Betty? In CAL's absence she decides to take up with Johnson? Or do you think the affair ended and then Betty moved on to Johnson, hoping the relationship might have potential? In your book, TDC, chapter 10, page 103, you mention how Lindbergh was requested by Princeton University to keep Betty from coming there as she was being found visiting the rooms of Princeton's students. It appears that Betty was very much the flirtatious type which was creating trouble at the university. Betty clearly enjoyed the attention of men. This appears to be not a new form of behavior for her. It seems she was fondly remembered three years later (1932) by the officers on the ship that brought Betty to America in 1929.
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Post by Michael on Jan 23, 2018 10:34:09 GMT -5
maybe she planed on the two of them coming into some money? one way or another? How crazy is it that I never once considered this? Did anyone ever determine how Red was able to obtain his new car? It is a good question. Unless I am missing or forgetting something, which is entirely possible on both counts, I do not think anyone ever asked him. What we do know is that it was a used car that Red was always working on. The closest thing that I could recall came from Garsson's interview so I just looked that up. Red told him he had a bank account at Bay Ridge Savings where the most he ever had was $220, and when he closed it " a few weeks ago" it only had $1 and some interest left in it. He also told him the most he ever took out at once was $75 but that was in November 1929 when he " was going to attend an evening school." So he either had the cash on hand for the car or it cost less than $75. [Just so I am clear, when you say she felt abandoned by Lindbergh, might you be suggesting that there was an affair going on between CAL and Betty? In CAL's absence she decides to take up with Johnson? Or do you think the affair ended and then Betty moved on to Johnson, hoping the relationship might have potential? My source for this is Hertog, and I used it because it made sense. I get the impression that it wasn't what she signed up for... being left nearly all by herself up there. The question is what did she sign up for? This whole "Gow" situation is one big puzzle. I mean how hard would it be for the Lindberghs to find a nursemaid? Wouldn't they be lined up to work for the family? There must have been scores of qualified and reliable nurse maids who would have done a great job. But here we have Betty, among who's life time goals is to work for a wealthy family hoping it leads to marriage with a rich man so she'll never have to work again, landing employment with the most famous man on the planet who is married into a very rich family. Yet, she's off getting into trouble? Thrown out of Princeton! Is she fired? No! Caught by cops on multiple occasions with Red in a disorderly state. The final time she's arrested. Is she fired? No! What's going on here? She hasn't been with them long, and is easily replaced. Again, what is going on? Here is a woman who could be fired on a whim if Lindbergh wanted to. So it gets me wondering why they need all of this drama in their lives? It also gets me wondering why, even after the child is "stolen," Lindbergh is making promises to Gow when it's her who should owe him...
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Post by Wayne on Jan 23, 2018 13:16:22 GMT -5
Regarding Red's car, here's what Red had to say about it in Part 4 of his 12-part newspaper series:
"I bought a small second-hand car. If anybody thinks I was getting money from some kidnapping gang or anything like that, they just ought to see that car. It certainly tested my mechanical skill to keep it running.
I named it the Depression, because that’s just how it looked. But Betty and I had a lot of fun with it. From helping me make repairs on it, she developed into quite a mechanic. And more than once during an evening ride something would go wrong with it and she would have to hold the flashlight while I tinkered with it. "
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Post by Wayne on Jan 23, 2018 13:37:25 GMT -5
Michael, Betty is one big question. Why was she even there that Tuesday?
Over the weekend, Anne had brought Alva Breckinridge with her to take care of Charlie which she did until she (Alva) left on Sunday night. On Monday, Elsie took care of Charlie with no problem. So why was Betty needed on Tuesday?
Here’s something to think about. In defiance of CAL’s 8 to 10 nursery lockdown rule, Anne checked on Charlie Saturday night before 10:00 (“Once before 10:00 o’clock I went into the baby’s room to see that he was covered.”)
Then again, on Monday night, when Anne was at Highfields without CAL, she said she checked on Charlie throughout the night (“…and during the night I went in several times to see if the baby were alright.”)
So, Betty is called in for reinforcements on Tuesday which causes the 8 to 10 nursery lockdown to be reinstated, giving the kidnapper(s) all the time and privacy they needed.
In other words, if Betty had not been called to Highfields, there was a good chance that Anne would have repeatedly checked on Charlie like she had before.
But with Betty there, the room was on lockdown.
Just another of the 1,001 coincidences working in favor of the kidnapper(s) that night, huh?
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Post by Joe on Jan 23, 2018 14:16:01 GMT -5
I understand what you're implying here Wayne, and it seems reasonable to me that Anne avoiding the nursery may have more to do with Lindbergh coming home that evening, as opposed to just the fact that Betty was there. It is also true that Anne's cold was getting worse and it seems reasonable to me that she would have wanted the baby's nursemaid looking after CALjr, as this was really not Elsie's job. With Lindbergh coming home, perhaps Anne also wanted to make sure Elsie was available for her normal duties, which included serving dinner that evening. Really, I have trouble seeing any issues here, and we will never know if Betty might also have been asked to stay at Hopewell looking after CALjr for a day or two after that Tuesday. That being said, I have an even tougher time trying to align any and all previously-noted coincidences into the "engineering plan" for a fake kidnapping. And they would all still fall well short of the fact a scheme like this with its highly predictable fallout, is possibly the last thing a painfully-private person like Lindbergh would have ever entertained, even if he was remotely capable of doing so. It's clear to me that in this case, truth as it often is, tuned out to be stranger than fiction.
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2018 14:53:31 GMT -5
It seems more likely that Charles was looking for a good woman on Tuesday. To me Anne never looked too sexy - good breeding, but that's about it. Actually pretty frumpy for all the money she had. Compare pictures of Anne and Elisabeth and just look at their clothes and you can see it.
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Post by Wayne on Jan 23, 2018 15:14:16 GMT -5
Hey Joe,
Maybe you're right about Betty being there as a Downton Abbey master/servant thing.
But the fact is that CAL (supposedly) phoned to say he would be arriving at Highfields after 7 PM.
I don't see Elsie as having that much to do that she couldn't take care of Charlie (just as she did the previous day).
And if Anne is so sick, why the 1-2 hour walk in the afternoon and throwing pebbles up to the window?
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Post by jack7 on Jan 23, 2018 15:21:23 GMT -5
Good normal thinking, but normal thinking hasn't worked with TLC> Gotta get outside that box. If only we could contact CAL's spirit.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 23, 2018 20:13:33 GMT -5
The irony Jack, is that March 1,1932 was a very normal kind of a day until Betty went to check in on Charlie at 10 pm.
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Post by jack7 on Jan 24, 2018 15:25:24 GMT -5
True Joe, normal to almost everybody. I'm gonna look back because I'm sure I was led from something to believe that Red had a new car. New to him I guess but the car doesn't sound like much of a catch. Did one of the authors slip that in to make Red and Betty look guilty?
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Post by jack7 on Jan 25, 2018 7:13:26 GMT -5
Jeez - banned from Princeton sounds like a lotta woman!
I thought it was on here but don't see it, but the conclusion made about the notes (that "clearly two people wrote them") is an indication of the flaw in this forum now. There's no clear evidence of anything except that at least one person wrote the notes. He could have been trying to disguise his writing leading him to be thinking on two different planes so he comes up with correct words sometimes. He could have had dual (dueling?) personalities which showed up on the notes. But the notes themselves aren't evidence of any more than that. They lead to an assumption of the possibility of two writers - nothing more. Evidence is quite different than notions.
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Post by Michael on Jan 25, 2018 8:37:11 GMT -5
Jeez - banned from Princeton sounds like a lotta woman! I never heard of any except Gow both then and now. I thought it was on here but don't see it, but the conclusion made about the notes (that "clearly two people wrote them") is an indication of the flaw in this forum now. There's no clear evidence of anything except that at least one person wrote the notes. He could have been trying to disguise his writing leading him to be thinking on two different planes so he comes up with correct words sometimes. He could have had dual (dueling?) personalities which showed up on the notes. But the notes themselves aren't evidence of any more than that. They lead to an assumption of the possibility of two writers - nothing more. Evidence is quite different than notions. I am assuming you are some how attaching me to this? I never said two people wrote it. Think about that supposed phone call when there was someone in the backround... If there is more than one person involved than of course there's input from them. I think the contents of the note isn't just coming from one person's head. I came to this conclusion after consulting a Forensic Linguist, and native speaking Germans. Of course it doesn't mean I am right but it's where I am at. There's evidence of disguise in Note #1. Note #2 is where there has been some speculation that someone else was attempting to mimic the first. However the accepted belief, which came from both Osborn and Stein in 1932, was that whoever wrote them tired of that disguise then simply started to write more normally. There is also debate about whether or not the writer used their opposite hand. Some QDEs believe so, and some do not. So I'd like to agree with your point about "evidence" and "notions" but when the accepted Experts can't even agree I don't think that works.
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Post by jack7 on Jan 25, 2018 10:36:52 GMT -5
Well, I'll look up where that was. Hasn't been that much posted lately. My point was, and I've seen it other places, that it's easy to make quick conclusions but they should be supported by something, like facts. All of the linguists in the world and the graphologists couldn't sort out the notes because they don't know what was going on any better than the normal person does. If "experts" can't tell whether a person was writing with his right or left hand what the poop good are they?
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Post by jack7 on Jan 25, 2018 10:39:13 GMT -5
If the experts can't draw conclusions how can your office?
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Post by jack7 on Jan 25, 2018 10:51:00 GMT -5
Even Zelda Fitzgerald wasn't banned from Princeton. Scott was banned from Cottage Club, but Zelda never was- The original "Flapper!"
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Post by Wayne on Jan 25, 2018 11:10:57 GMT -5
Did anyone ever determine how Red was able to obtain his new car? FYI, here is a photo of Red's car "Depression" - a green Chrysler coupe. (Wolf, do you have more?)
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Post by jack7 on Jan 25, 2018 11:14:36 GMT -5
Wish I had it now. Would look good with a 440 and a supercharger!
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Post by Michael on Jan 25, 2018 12:01:43 GMT -5
Well, I'll look up where that was. Hasn't been that much posted lately. My point was, and I've seen it other places, that it's easy to make quick conclusions but they should be supported by something, like facts. All of the linguists in the world and the graphologists couldn't sort out the notes because they don't know what was going on any better than the normal person does. If "experts" can't tell whether a person was writing with his right or left hand what the poop good are they? I know I've been "hard" on the QDEs over the years but that was never without reason. They have skill, of that there is no doubt, but when you have two Experts saying completely different things then it's not a true Science in my mind. However, there is value in how they get there and if that isn't shared with us then we are less knowledgeable. If the experts can't draw conclusions how can your office? Same goes with any Linguist Expert. There are no absolutes unless it's a case where everyone 100% agrees. But these people are very knowledgeable in their field so it's a mistake not to pick their brain. The guy I communicated with, and we're going back some time ago, didn't tell me what his position was but instead simply answered what questions I had. As a result of many things, to include those answers to my questions from him, it is why I am at where I'm at. Like I said, it is my opinion and I am certainly not telling anyone what to believe.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 9:00:35 GMT -5
Regarding Red's car, here's what Red had to say about it in Part 4 of his 12-part newspaper series: "I bought a small second-hand car. If anybody thinks I was getting money from some kidnapping gang or anything like that, they just ought to see that car. It certainly tested my mechanical skill to keep it running. I named it the Depression, because that’s just how it looked. But Betty and I had a lot of fun with it. From helping me make repairs on it, she developed into quite a mechanic. And more than once during an evening ride something would go wrong with it and she would have to hold the flashlight while I tinkered with it. " I think Johnson had his "Pinocchio" nose on while he was writing his "Adventure" series. Seriously, is that what his experiences were regarding this crime - an adventure? Sounds almost like a fiction story or something, with a title like that. Just how bad was the mechanical condition of his "Depression" car? Couldn't have been that bad. According to Johnson, he spent several hours driving around with the Junges the night of March 1, 1932. No "mechanical" problems that night. Then he drove all the way to Hartford CT the next morning. No "mechanical" problems with that commute. Here is a film clip that shows Red Johnson's car and the milk bottle found in his car that cast heavy suspicion on him as the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. You also get a glimpse of the poor road conditions that existed around the Lindbergh estate. www.gettyimages.com/license/683220048
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Post by wolfman666 on Feb 5, 2018 12:31:23 GMT -5
amy did you know the guy who intorrigated red Johnson in Hartford, ended up the chief of police in charge of the Hartford circus fire in 1947 I think. what a tragedy that was
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 23:17:16 GMT -5
amy did you know the guy who intorrigated red Johnson in Hartford, ended up the chief of police in charge of the Hartford circus fire in 1947 I think. what a tragedy that was Steve, I was not aware of the Hartford Circus Fire. I looked it up and it was such a horrible tragedy. It occurred on July 6, 1944. It was an afternoon performance of the Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey circus. Everyone was in the big tent for the performances when the fire started. The large tent was coated with paraffin wax mixed with gasoline. This was used to waterproof the tent material. Once ignited the big tent quickly became engulfed with flames burning in 7 minutes!! The cause was thought to be a discarded cigarette or some thought an arsonist started the fire. There were 168 deaths and around 700 injured persons. This fire is considered one of the worst fire disasters in American history. Is the guy Prosecutor Alcorn? He interrogated Red Johnson in Hartford. I believe Alcorn also prosecuted the circus executives who were charged in the Hartford circus fire.
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Post by wolfman666 on Feb 8, 2018 9:36:49 GMT -5
yes his name is alcorn I have 2 books on the Hartford circus fire and when I saw his name it rang a bell with the red Johnson interview. its a horrible event. the famous thing out of the circus fire is they never identified a little blonde girl who died in the fire she was a number little miss 1565 one book said she identified and my other book said she wasn't.
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