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Post by leah on Oct 29, 2006 18:37:05 GMT -5
i think there were very complex and intricate relationships between the servants in the morrow and lindbergh homes. these associations didn't seem limited to time spent at home and was fluid between households. thinking of the junges and red johnson it seems almost like a family that was incestuous. lindbergh and mrs morrow seem impervious to household matters, IMHO much more could have been learned from an early and complete questioning of the entirety of both set of staffs.
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Post by rick3 on Oct 30, 2006 15:01:50 GMT -5
Hi Leah and Mairi: thanks for your thoughtful responses!
1. All the interactions of the Lindbergh-Morrow households are fascinating....and controlled by CAL and Mrs. Morrow. Both have absolute faith in the innocence of their employees...in spite of Schwartzkopf, Walsh, and the underlings suggesting an inside job. There are very likely many "family secrets" that they dont want revealed in any official question and answerer interrogations. The servants would know most of them.
2. Violet and her sister Edna (Emily) came over from England thru Canada in 1929 together and were only separated for about 6 weeks. Maybe Edna got the job with Constance Chilton at the dayschool or daycare center and then helped Violet get into the Morrow household as a....housemaid? Violet was extremely well liked and popular. They were close enough for Violet to have paid for some hospitalization for Edna in 1931. Its a bit odd that Edna bailed on April 6th 1932 and left her older sister behind alone to die?
3. Its rather fascinating to try a cross-reference all of Violets interviews between authors accounts. All have slight variations. Here is another version:
Interview #1 March 10th Detectives McGrath and Schiable from Newark PD who take Violet to Hopewell so her room can be searched while they are gone.
Interview #2 Harry Walsh takes over on Wednesday April 13th at Next Day Hill and Violet changes her nite out to Peanut Grill maybe in Orangburg NY?
Interview #3 Harry Walsh May 23rd in the Morrow Library with CAL in attendance. Note: Schwartzkopf had ordered a doctor's exam on Saturday 21st May to make certain Violet was healthy?
Interview #4 Thursday June 9th Harry Walsh--Violet faints and winks at Arthur Springers secretary?
Interview #5 Friday June 10th...Violet becomes violently ill and refuses to accompany Buster Keaton over to Alpine NJ? Oops/
Note: at only one interview/month it takes 90days to get to the crux of the matter...too little too late?
4. In another interesting twist: "Information supplied by a loyal friend, the Morrow butler, Septimus Banks, discredited any link between Violet and Ernest Brinkert, the an ex-convict ." [from the Kingsport Times/ Sunday June 12, 1932.]
In a second news article, Norman Schwartzkopf was quoted : "Violets shoeprints were compared with those found in the Lindbergh garden the nite of the kidnap and did not match"! Hello, what footprints?
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Post by leah on Oct 31, 2006 10:02:30 GMT -5
rick, when you total the lying, the wink, the DRASTIC weight loss, the money in her bank account, it adds up to something. maybe violet was willing to keep secrets so she could keep hers. the fact she was so well liked by the staff probably opened up the doors to many of those secrets, family as well as staff. why did edna return to egland?
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Post by rick3 on Oct 31, 2006 11:06:33 GMT -5
Hi Leah/ I was hoping women's intuition would solve this one? Yes I certainly agree that Violet was a complicated person. Maybe fooling all the people some of the time--at least Septimus Banks. She knew how to manipulate everyone and maybe she padded her bank account with calls to McElvie at the Daily News? Once she was dead investigation into her past died down--so to speak. Her sister Edna returning to UK on 6th April (unannounced) immediately following the ransom payment is yet another mystery. Some accounts claim that Edna was merely on an extended vacation? This doesn't add up since both she and Violet had been here for over 2 years. Some would blow this off as "just an odd coincidence"? Not unlike many others? Seems too pat to me? Edna had a good job with Constance Chilton at the day school so she was gainfully employed. Maybe she got fearful when Charlie was missing. Edna would have been an excellent person for Walsh to have interviewed about Charlie Jr, the date to the Peanut Grill in East Orange and the identity of Ernie too. But she left before all that was figured out....just 6 weeks later? Violet was apparently the stronger of the two, and decided to stick around "so that she would not look guilty"? Yikes--what a huge miscalculation in hindsight? Its also puzzling that Edna had some medical treatments or hospitalization in 1931 paid for by Violet. Gary speculates that Edna may have had a hernia operation resulting from pregnancy? Once Violet turned up dead, Edna never revealed any of their secrets which may have been extensive? As far as we know, Edna never returned to the US and took all her secrets to the grave. Bill Norris's daughter interviews Edna for A Talent to Decieve....but Edna's not talking? Violet knows more men than we can keep track of....the reporter, the pharmacist, Edna claims she was married to an olde married man too? Both she and her sister remain an enigma. Especially since the New Rochelle Taxi Card found in her room was nearby Mancke's Luncheonette and tea with Fisch and Ollie in Jan/Feb? One thing is certain--there is more than meets the eye about Violet Sharpe. We will have to see the play! lindberghkidnap.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=news&action=display&thread=1152356575
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Post by Giszmo on Oct 31, 2006 11:23:06 GMT -5
In a second news article, Norman Schwartzkopf was quoted : "Violets shoeprints were compared with those found in the Lindbergh garden the nite of the kidnap and did not match"! Hello, what footprints? (Rick)I assume they were compared to the lady's shoeprints that were found at Highfields. However, they were thought to have been Mrs. Lindbergh's. But, if they were thought to be Mrs. Lindbergh's why compare Violet's to them? Bill Norris's daughter interviews Edna for A Talent to Decieve....but Edna's not talking? (Rick)She did?? What did she do, use a Ouija Board?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Oct 31, 2006 12:17:31 GMT -5
Some of us surely do seem to be on the same wave link. Before I came on the board I'd spent all morning thinking about EDNA , sister of Violet! Was thinking it may be a reach to connect her to the case, but then maybe not. Had wondered just when she went back to England. Thanx for supplying that date, Rick. The timing of that , I agree, certainly is odd. The two of them being very close would have led to much exchange of chatter/gossip about the two families, I should think. Do you suppose Edna also attended the Church of the Divine whatever? Could she have channeled tips to the newspeople ( or other ominous parties)? Somewhere I read V had expressed thoughts about returning to England. She could well afford it being such a good money saver. If Edna were the one more involved in the case though, I can't really see V doing the suicide for it.
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Post by sue75 on Oct 31, 2006 19:31:15 GMT -5
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Post by leah on Nov 1, 2006 10:42:52 GMT -5
sue, as always so interesting. i wonder about "impeachable" reputation of betty gow. what does that mean. i wonder why (during the trial) she was defensive and protective of red johnson. she had seen him for three years! rick, im not sure about violet. she wasnt stupid, she amassed more during the depression than hauptman did. i dont think she was that depressed, remember the wink and smile. it seems she was worried about her role (real or imagined) in the baby's death. OR she was hiding a family/staff secret that involved her.
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Post by pzb63 on Nov 1, 2006 18:08:43 GMT -5
Thanks for that item Sue.
The sentenec referring to Gow and the Whateleys - "Background information was provided on the Whateleys, but no police force had heard of Gow" implies that the Whateleys where known to police. Is this so, or just ambiguous wording? If yes, what was the information about them?
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Post by Michael on Nov 2, 2006 6:40:30 GMT -5
There are (3) sources I'd like to check this out in. I'll see what I can find out...
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Post by rick3 on Nov 2, 2006 15:24:44 GMT -5
Hi Leah: overall I would offer that Violet Sharpe was a very clever girl. She might well have been playing Ollie for an older fool, seeing how he was in charge of all the servants and could cut her alot of slack. Its unlikely Violet considered herself informally engaged in real time? Her dates and beaus were too numerous to count. She said in one interview she dated the Daily News reporter Mckelvie 3 or more times.
2. Apparently there are far too many East and West Oranges? Authors and posters split 50/50 on this one:
A-Headline: FRIEND OF GIRL DENIES RED JOHNSON IN THE GROUP Elmer Johnson collaborated the testimony of the two previous witnesses about the "foursome" on the night of March 1, 1932.....He said he did not know "Red" Johnson. The witness "supposed" that the Peanut Grill was twelve miles from Englewood. Elmer then had some difficulty identifying a photo of Violet Sharpe? NYTimes February 10, 1935.
B-Lindy Kidnap #7437 (Matriplex):As to the Peanut Grill location, Violet mistakenly told Walsh it was in "one of the Oranges" meaning East Orange or West Orange, New Jersey. It is actually located in Orangeburg, NY, just across the state line. Her mistake is understandable, Gardner's is not. {This jibes w/ Violet who said it was over an hour away from Englewood?rick}
C--Lindy Kidnap #7481 Allen:PS. For those who wish to totally relive the LKC experience, the Peanut Grill is still standing, about 12 miles from the Morrow homestead.... "The Crimes That Haunt Us" (p. 152) says it was "an hour away" - but you can't believe everything you read these days... the name of the current incarnation of this famous roadhouse has been changed, so you can only tell from the sign in the parking Lot. No mention of Violet however...
3. In just one small section of the LKC there two names for Violets sister: Edna or Emily; two Oranges; two Johnson's and best of all: two Ernies? And Harry Walsh gets blamed for planting the infamous Post Road Taxi Card in Violets room?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Nov 2, 2006 15:57:56 GMT -5
Rick. It may be 12 mi as the crow flies but in an automobile back in 1932 it was considerably longer. My 1931 NJ road map shows that one would have a number of secondary roads to travel.
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Post by Michael on Nov 4, 2006 7:25:19 GMT -5
Believing I have all of the material in question.... It appears the Author of this article isn't as knowledgeable as we are concerning the case. There was an inquiry that asked for information about both the Whateleys and SCOTTIE Gow. Scottie, you will recall, was the alleged Purple Gang Member that police believed was Betty Gow's brother originally. Here is the report I believe they are referencing:
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Post by leah on Nov 4, 2006 13:37:02 GMT -5
michael, that was interesting but it does seem to leave some room for a through investigation. how do you think these servants got these jobs? its the depression and these were wealthy people, wouldn't it be supposed that they would have used more experienced staff and people who could be checked on more easily? it really sounds out-of-character for CAL. am i missing something here?
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Post by Michael on Nov 5, 2006 11:11:52 GMT -5
I see your point Leah, however, consider that Marie Cummings came recommended by Dr. Hawk and she was a real mess as far as being responsible goes (in my opinion). Additionally, consider the Morrow Staff and the dysfunctional behavior some there adopted - only to be kept on or forgiven. In that household loyalty was the utmost important beyond all else - and from what I have learned via the reports etc. it most definitely was a two-way street - loyalty was rewarded with loyalty.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 5, 2006 14:30:48 GMT -5
Marie Cummings~Is there a particular LKC book which describes her? Would appreciate if anyone could point me in that direction. Have only seen brief ref to her, one of which suggested the baby failed to thrive during her watch. This, in turn, reminds me of kidnappers referring to "until baby was stronger". Would like to see what dates may compare, with both that and "planned for a year already"
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Post by leah for mairi on Nov 5, 2006 20:08:08 GMT -5
the fbi files, edited by fensch mentions marie cummings but clears her per the nYPD. it also states that the adress given by JJ faulkner wasn't his but was inhabited by a mary or marie cummins or cummings and michael cummins. no investigation was done to determine if this was the same person. also says that ms. cummings initially cared for the newborn baby, left and was replaced by someone else, name not ascertined, and then ms. cummings returned to care for the baby noone knew why the second nurse wqs discharged.
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Post by Michael on Nov 5, 2006 20:14:56 GMT -5
She's briefly mentioned in both Kennedy's and Dr. Gardner's books... She's also mentioned in the FBI Summary Report. I think she is also mentioned in one of Anne's statements.
Maybe someone else knows something I've missed which is available? I have to go to my files for in depth information....
She was hired by the Lindbergh's in June '30 and stayed with Mrs. Morrow's sister in Englewood. On June 22 she was with Anne when she gave birth to Charles Jr. Sometime in late July she was replaced. Her replacement stopped working for the Lindbergh's on October 16, 1930 and Miss Cummings returned until the end of May '31. In June '31 she was hired by Mrs. Morrow's sister to take care of a recently adopted child.
She did see copies of the plans for the house at Highfields.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 5, 2006 22:01:50 GMT -5
Leah and Michael~ Thank you both very much for the details, dates, and refs about Marie Cummings. I do appreciate the directions to the books, too, as I'm lucky now to have both Kennedy and Gardner. Good Wishes Aye.
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Post by rick3 on Nov 6, 2006 10:56:52 GMT -5
Hi Michael--your paragraph on Miss Marie Cummings is more fascinating and complex than I had imagined:
You have conjectured previously that Miss Cummings was let go for some reason related to Charlie's health or progress--eg he wasnt doing so well? Is it true that Betty Gow replaces the mystery nanny on October 16, 1930? Do we know who's adoptive baby this is on or about Charlie's one year birthday? And last...Wasnt Miss Cummings brought back to care for Jon after his birth in Sept 1932?
Just as an aside, the temporary or weekend Nanny for Highfields in 1932 was Miss Alva Root....the step daughter of Henry Breckenridge. This connection was kept secret for years and even escaped the keen eye of Bern in Lindbergh the Crime? Apparently Alva flew below the radar and was never interviewed?
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Post by gary on Nov 6, 2006 12:22:35 GMT -5
When one looks at Violet either one concludes she was not of sound mind from the onset or she evaded giving information for specific reasons. Since I don't believe she was crazy at the beginning and perhaps broke down afterward- I ask what was she hiding? A very good reason is that she was giving information to the media about the Lindberghs. This definitely is not a good thing but hardly a reason to find her end as in a suicide. We can all dream up of all the possibilities among them can be the extreme. I definitely believe Violet took it upon herself to be big sister and a good one for Edna. Among her belongings were proof of this. I believe if she was involved more directly than we can prove it would be in this area of Edna. You have to add up all the inconsistencies and dark corners which are still few but there. Edna leaving when she did to England had and did spark a raised eyebrow. Perhaps an event of Violet sending her off rather than Edna leaving. Has anyone come across the name Ruby Smith? She is a nurse and friend of Edna's. Michael do you have any info on her or anybody else who has looked at the Sharps.?Certain stories would want me to look a little more at who she might be. She did make a trip or two with Edna to Englewood but more curiously more than one friend told police when they were trying to id Violet in photos they were passing around a photo of Ruby Smith and not of Violet.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 6, 2006 14:23:22 GMT -5
Rick, Leah,Gary~Something which strikes me as extra peculiar (amongst many) is why did Violet try SO hard to hide who her date was on 1 March? As for appearances, going out with someone whose name she didn't even know certainly does come across as unseemly. So what was so important that she would rather be thought of as a "pick-up" than to reveal the names(s)? Have seen somewhere that these people came forth at some point, but little attention seems paid to them -or at least from what bit I've seen.
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Post by gary on Nov 6, 2006 14:53:23 GMT -5
The trio that went with Violet to the Peanut Grill were deemed unsuspicious and not tied to anything. In Violet finally coming forth with the true story she mentioned it was such a small car she had to sit on the lap of her date. Violet was embarrassed she didn't have any money with her. Apparently this date didn't go to well.
The only shaky thing possibly is when they were leaving someone asked them where the the ferry was and they had to call the manager over to give them directions. When they heard ferry it took the investigators interest but they could make nothing of it. As you know later there were two reports and is in the trial transcripts of testimony someone saw Violet with a baby and a man at a particular ferry on that night. That is why this Ruby Smith thing interest me because there certainly seems to be some confusion of the id of Violet and this Ruby Smith.
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Post by rick3 on Nov 6, 2006 17:31:15 GMT -5
Gary and Mairi/ yes you are right/ but a couple things are still perplexing about Violet and her sister:
1. Out of 29 servants at Next Day Hill Violet is the only one who cant convince the Newark detectives that she was somewhere in particular and "nothing to hide"? I seriously doubt that all the others were carefully checked out....like Ellerson and Banks at the Sha-toe speakeasy but, nevertheless, Violet does not sound credible? She Lies!
2. Turns out Violet is outright lying about the movie and location. Now this could be simply due to the fact that she didn't want to be caught dancing or drinking at the Peanut? Even if its only coffee? Why? --so what? Its in New York, so what? She keeps lying?
3. Once she says "movie" in Englewood....shes already out on a date! So her cover is blown with the boys and Septimus? Its just that she cant remember the movie title or plot?
4. At one of the 4 main interviews/ March 1oth or April 13rd or May 23rd/ June 9th.....they search her room for evidence. i would assume the earlier the better? But what a whopping coincidence....the Post Road Taxi Cards are in the name of Ernest Brinkert....the same Earnie she says she went to the movies with? So--at least she got one thing right? In between interviews she takes time out for a tonsillectomy and looses 50 pounds? She also claims in a letter to have a "poisoned throat"? Wonder what it was poisoned with? Odd choice of words? Potassium cyanide?
5. Violet justs keeps on lying or telling 1/2 truths. she then says that Ernie Brinkert looks like the Ernie at the Peanut? Also Walsh checks out the phone records ant Ernie calls at 1pm on Tuesday March 1st and not 7:45? So theres another lie on top of the lie that she doesn't even have any male friends? see Norris--Talent to Deceive.
6. So how does any of this relate to an abortion in the Spring of 1932? This was not a topic that came up? Nor was the fathers name per chance? How does this relate to dating the Daily News reporter named Mckelvie or the Pharmacist named William O'brian. Obviously, it does not. It could have been her phone call to McKilvie the night of March 1st but noone knew about that?
7. One thing is certain....niether Violet or Edna had to face either Ernie Brinkert or Ernie Miller face to face? At least not after June 10th? Its still a mystery that does not easily go away?
Gary...why would anyone ask the foursome at the Peanut Grill about any FERRY? What ferry? Why them? Good one/
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Post by Michael on Nov 7, 2006 21:33:51 GMT -5
Rick - good points about Marie Cummings and the revolving door involving this job. Her reasons for leaving was that she 'missed' NYC... We know Gow quit her employment w/ the Lindbergh's before the trial and that Cummings came back to look after Jon. The other sources I forgot to mention were Anne's Hour of Gold Hour of Lead, and Hertog's Her Life. I think there is something important in this whole drama involving the (3) nurses....
Gary - I'll look for Ruby Smith and see what I can find.
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Post by rick for michael on Nov 8, 2006 3:38:43 GMT -5
Michael....is it your sense of the changing au pairs that they are merely a mirror of some disappointing or unsettling situation or circumstances with Charlie's heath or childhood progress? Maybe requiring frequent doctors checkups or hospitaliztions? For instance wasn't Dr. Van Ingen the pediatrician of record an expert in childhood diseases? Is the "less than perfect" factor related to the rickets or other developmental concerns or a need for secrecy?
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Post by Michael on Nov 8, 2006 6:35:17 GMT -5
It's hard to say Rick... The "declining" part is interesting but its so general it could mean anything. How does a child 'decline'? I am searching for that now .... think it might be in one of the statements somewhere.
I've read over the years that Cummings was sneaking out at night, was very pretty and looked young for her age....claimed to be 10 years or so younger then she actually was. So put both the explanations together and it could make sense, yet, why bring her back - not once but twice?
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Post by rick3 on Nov 8, 2006 10:28:47 GMT -5
Michael....well there are just enough strange oddities in Charlie's short life to pique my curiosity. If you factor in that CJohn says to JFC something like: we have been planning this kidnap for a year but the baby wasn't well enough?...then the implication is that the decline has reversed. Maybe all the vitamins and UV jump started the little fellow?
What is your take on Doc Van Ingen's May 1932 letter to Mrs Morrow? Does it strike you as odd in any way that hes writing as if Chalrie is still alive AND 33" tall? What purpose did that serve? CYA?
Anne raises an interesting point in Hour of Gold: "out of 20,000 kidnaps never did the kidnappers bargain for a dead child? ".
II. Miss Marie Cummings is located at her home at 124 West Eightly-fifth street, NYC on 4 March 32 and interviewed by Lt. Dugan of the E. 66th st station. MC has severe laryngitis at the time? Apparently, she nursed Anne during her "pregnancy confinement" and then was there for the birth at Englewood and 6 weeks after? She was replaced by Betty Gow around August 1st 1930? (*see below) MC did not disclose anything that might help the investigators in thier search for Charlie Jr. NYTimes 5 March 1932 [Charlie Jr was only a tiny tyke during that 6 weeks and couldnt have declined too much]
III>""A more intriguing document is an interview done on March 4, 1932 with Marie Cummings, the Lindbergh child's first nurse in Englewood. She had two stints with the Lindberghs, before she was replaced by Betty Gow in Feb 1931.
The interview took place in her apt at 124 W 85th St, in NYC. Although she was very ill with laryngitis, she somehow managed to tell quite some stories.
She told one about a boy about 16 years old, working for a private family in Princeton, NJ. He was in the habit of hanging around Lindy's place, she said. One day, Lindbergh caught him in his plane (wheres the airport?) [!] and told him to stay off the grounds. Mrs Lindbergh told Miss Cummings about this. Mrs Lindbergh also said she caught this boy peeping in the windows on the ground floor - there were no curtains - he was caught around 7:30 pm."" [Allen/ Lindykidnap #4494-4497]
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Post by Michael on Nov 8, 2006 19:11:26 GMT -5
Gary - no luck on Ruby Smith yet. If you don't mind could you post, email, or PM me where you first saw her mentioned? This might give me other leads to run down.
Rick - I don't know what Allen's source is here but I can tell you that I have the official interviews. Anything Allen posts should be regarded as fiction until proven otherwise. His track-record, unfortunately, speaks for itself.
Interesting observations concerning CJ. I do believe there is much to be learned from what Condon says CJ said. The VanIngen letter doesn't strike me as fake.
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Post by rick for michael on Nov 9, 2006 7:50:25 GMT -5
Not "faked" Michael. I just cant think of any purpose, rational reason or necessity for VanIngen to be writting this letter to Mrs. Morrow in May 1932 with Charlie Jr missing? She should have known all this in spades already? From Anne? Odd timing? Some babys body is discovered one week later but Dr. VanIngen cannot give a positive identification.
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