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Post by jack7 on Jul 20, 2011 21:49:58 GMT -5
I guess what I'm saying is they did come down on Violet with CAL sitting right in, so what's the jive about Charles not allowing police to question Mrs. Morrow's employees? I think they questioned them and didn't find any problems except for Violet. It seems that whether she actually did or not, she believed that she let out some information which was involved in the kidnapping. Regarding Charles "above the law status," it's funny somebody didn't shoot the dick. My dad was a wingwalker and met Charles - said he was just an ordinary guy but very set in his ways. His only comment about the crime was that Hauptmann probably had something to do with it - an opinion well shared by many.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 20, 2011 21:56:01 GMT -5
Rick's topic here has been read over 7,000 times - way to shoot Rick!
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Post by jack7 on Jul 20, 2011 23:09:26 GMT -5
And, Michael, things can be deceiving. For example if you look me up, say I was trying to apply for a job with you or something, I come back as dead. Now of course I'm not dead because I'm sitting here typing, but legally I will come back no matter how you look, as dead. So if that showed up in a true crime mystery people would just start wondering along the wrong avenues. I walked out of Cambodia in 1976 and the others said you're dead man, and it's been like that ever since.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2011 16:25:27 GMT -5
Groucho and Chico could have figured this case out - "Hey we go to the registrations", thatsa one, thatsa two...... Something cops never cared to do.
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2011 16:31:14 GMT -5
Who said anything about not questioning? I said he wouldn't allow the lie detector. He flipped once he saw the FBI investigating certain angles without both his knowledge and consent. It didn't matter, for example, they were able to locate Brinkert when no one else could.
If no investigation was allowed, by anyone, then I don't think there would be a debate. What occurred was under the control and watchful eye of the almighty - or else.
Not so. Violet's behavior raised the most red flags but there was interest elsewhere too.
Well, I'd want to know how you enlisted at age 10. Next, even if someone is considered deceased, if they returned alive they would have to want that situation AND assume another identity (without getting exposed) to "stay" dead. Sounds like you've done neither so they know you are alive.
I do get your point - but mine is you have to run down everything in order to know what's what.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2011 18:32:07 GMT -5
I was drafted at age seventeen and chose to join up or they would have taken me anyway at 18. They wouldn't have taken me at seventeen, but what's a couple months? I was the youngest person drafted from Minnesota since the Korean War when it sounds like they drafted just about everybody. I made a nice deal with the regular army but I wound up getting screwed. That's not your problem so don't mess - and has nothing to do with LKC.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 21, 2011 18:39:02 GMT -5
And actually, Michael - can I call you Mike? - if I'm considered dead or not what do you give a poop? I brought that up as a realistic thing that can happen in true crime situations. I guess if you can't see that reality you should be somewhere else - maybe Mexico marrying a muzzle!
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Post by Michael on Jul 22, 2011 16:00:25 GMT -5
Sure...
I don't, and that wasn't my point.
And I responded the way in which I would deal with that "realistic thing" that can happen in true crime situations.
Fact is, I did see it which was exactly why I borrowed your very own concept to explain my approach. I honestly thought you'd better relate to it.
Look, since 2007 my alcohol intake has amounted to about 5 beers total. But I am certain you could find a number of people who would be willing to testify that I am an alcoholic. That's how the world spins, I know, and I am willing to bet those same people are the ones with the drinking problems.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 22, 2011 20:02:27 GMT -5
Well the major point is that - look at myself, a virtual nobody, but if I'd have talked to Walsh, I'd have been considered a primo in the entire investigation. So suicides happen - even if there's a note, they're kinda unknown. I think newer suicides are somewhat AIDS related, but even doctors won't venture that. So you actually have about thirty employees of Mrs. M - and you got one suicide. Hey it's within the window. I had two cousins (my mothers sisters kids - each about my age) who did suicide. Within the window, nobody thought oddly of it at all.
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Post by Michael on Jul 23, 2011 7:40:56 GMT -5
I see you making two good points. One being Walsh, and his tactics, and the other being that someone's actions could be interpreted to mean something they don't truly represent.
Let me address Walsh first....
His tactics were employed on just about everyone. They aren't always reflected that way in the reports. But if you read other more informal types of communications.....like Jung's interview by Pettit, or Ellerson's letter to Gov. Hoffman - you will see this stuff happened all the time and much worse then what Sharp was subjected to.
But none of these people killed themselves.
The specifics concerning Sharp came out because she did kill herself, and I submit to you they would not have otherwise.
Suicide is a sticky topic. Why did the interrogation trigger her death? She was lying about something that seems mundane which was the exact reason for all of the attention. So the focus shifts to better understand why she was lying if she didn't want them to look at her more closely.
And so all things must be looked at and considered. I can't see how anyone who seriously looks into this Case can dismiss any reasonable idea as it concerns Sharp.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 23, 2011 23:41:14 GMT -5
Walsh was a shotgun speculator (and not a bad way to do things). He kept throwing it out until something stucked.That sounds kinda dumb until you look at the alternative which is hundreds of detectives who don't even throw anything out. I just had a monster question come to me Michael, and for Kevkon too. It occured to me when I was talking w/Kevcon a while ago. Is this crime a billion percent overanalyzed? It was pretty simple to the police who you'd think would know more about crimes than us guys on the street. I guess I'm just wondering what has kept this going, and to quote Kevkon, seems kinda silly.
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2011 2:53:41 GMT -5
"Who's said anything about not questioning?" Hey Michael - every book has said that! Hey I can go along with no testing, because those things can be deceived, but the involveds should be questioned, and according to all information they weren't. Get Betty Gow in front of a lamp and find out something instead of sending her out of the country. Put thumbstrews to her boyfriend instead of deporting him and the crime might have been solved. Keep Violet incommucado for a couple weeks, and her sister and listen to 'em squalking! You guys talk about Jersey Justice - well you have never seen Minneapolis Police - we get the job done!
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2011 3:17:50 GMT -5
Jack for MichaeL: I'm trying to run a train here man. What happened to everybody? I tried to be a heavy hitter here and throw my thoughts in, but it seeme there's not much interest anymore. Kinda like OJ and what's that's kids name - who gives a poop anymore. Like Kevkon says, it's all "silly."
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Post by jack7 on Jul 24, 2011 3:49:40 GMT -5
I don'think the Lindbergh enigma can be figured out but it's interesting to talk about. And it's interesting to talk with yourself and Kevkon is a particularly interesting person. Other than that LKC is deadskie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2014 20:22:29 GMT -5
I have a question about Violet and Ernie. Violet was never able to tell investigators what Ernie's last name was. She said she didn't know. If this is true, then how is it that Septimus Banks was able to tell investigators that the Ernie Violet was talking about was actually Ernie Miller. He told them this after Violet's death. Was Banks ever questioned as to why he knew this but Violet didn't?
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kdwv8
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Post by kdwv8 on Feb 4, 2014 20:40:12 GMT -5
Micheal, What is the story about "Alpine"? Why did CAL want Violet Sharpe questioned there? Thanks!
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Post by corrine on Feb 4, 2014 23:40:10 GMT -5
I have a question about Violet and Ernie. Violet was never able to tell investigators what Ernie's last name was. She said she didn't know. If this is true, then how is it that Septimus Banks was able to tell investigators that the Ernie Violet was talking about was actually Ernie Miller. He told them this after Violet's death. Was Banks ever questioned as to why he knew this but Violet didn't? Good question I was just thinking the same thing about Banks. Also Ernie Miller did they investigate fully into this guy? Is it possible he had family or friends with the last name Ernest. Someones was covering up something.
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Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2014 18:45:30 GMT -5
Micheal, What is the story about "Alpine"? Why did CAL want Violet Sharpe questioned there? Thanks! After the State Police Headquarters moved back to Trenton from Hopewell a detail consisting of Walsh, Sgt. Moffat (Newark PD), Lt. Keaton, and Cpl. Horn was stationed at the Alpine Station (which was closet to Englewood) for the purposes of specifically investigating angles of this case to include focus on Violet Sharp. On June 10th it was decided to have Sharp brought to this station for the next round of questioning. Here's is an excerpt from Walsh's Jersey Journal Article dated 11-17-32: I went to Alpine. I notified Col. Schwarzkopf and Col. Lindbergh of Violet's identification of Brinkert, and they considered it so important they decided to send for her forthwith for further questioning concerning Brinkert. I told them that before they sent for her, if I was to do the questioning the services of some doctor would have to be employed because of the girl's condition and my fear of what might result. As a result of my request the interview was delayed for 12 hours, it being decided to have Dr. A. D. McLane of Englewood report to Alpine the following morning. At that time, it was decided we would send for Miss Sharpe and conduct the interview. Also Ernie Miller did they investigate fully into this guy? Is it possible he had family or friends with the last name Ernest. Someones was covering up something. They took his Statement, and took request writing exemplars to compare to the Ransom Notes. His Statement checked with Minner's Statement which also checked out against the final version concerning what Sharpe had told them. The NJSP cleared them both.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2014 10:04:26 GMT -5
How extensive was this investigation? Did LE go to the Peanut Grill to see if any employees there could ID Violet and the others? Did investigators bring in Elmer Johnson? He is the man that Violet ended up being with that night, supposedly.
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2014 11:26:23 GMT -5
How extensive was this investigation? Did LE go to the Peanut Grill to see if any employees there could ID Violet and the others? Did investigators bring in Elmer Johnson? He is the man that Violet ended up being with that night, supposedly. I have a recollection that Police did visit a Speakeasy during an investigation involving Sharp. However, I cannot locate the reference in my files. I thought, maybe, it was in the Bulletins and I just got finished searching through by "B" copies but cannot find my "A" File - this means I pulled it then either misfiled it or didn't put it back - and so it goes..... I do think if there was something important (from my perspective at least), I would have remembered it. I do know in the end the Police were satisfied despite heavily suspecting her involvement in some way. Attachment DeletedThe above Report gives you an idea concerning your question concerning Johnson. He was eventually located on June 16th where he was brought in then gave a Statement. The Police also interviewed several people concerning him as part of their investigation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 14:33:46 GMT -5
Thanks Michael for posting this report. I do hope that LE was able to locate the correct speakeasy that Violet and Miller claimed to be at. I find myself uncertain about the validity of how this evening really went. If it truly was just an innocent date she was trying not to reveal why do something drastic like suicide or was there something else going on and Violet was unknowingly, on her part, given something in a glass of water she thought was an aid to try to calm her nerves but killed her instead?
Violet's death created such a firestorm in America and across the ocean. New Jersey law enforement was being crucified over Violet's death. England was condemning our police tactics, our media was critical of how police handled an innocent girl and Violet's family was saying that LE relentlessly pursued Violet to the point that she committed suicide to escape them. It seems everyone everywhere thought that Violet was an innocent victim of our justice system. With all this outrage and indignation being expressed by England and Violet's family, why did they not arrange to have Violet's body returned so she could be buried in her homeland near her family? Instead Violet was buried by the Morrow family here in America. At the minimum, why didn't Violet's family arrange to have a headstone made for her burial plot? Where is the follow through that a grieving family arranges for a loved one? Am I missing something here? Did Violet's family seek custody of her remains but was denied for some reason? Can you comment on this Michael?
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Post by Michael on Feb 10, 2014 9:21:25 GMT -5
Thanks Michael for posting this report. I do hope that LE was able to locate the correct speakeasy that Violet and Miller claimed to be at. I find myself uncertain about the validity of how this evening really went. It's been rough going for me as it relates to finding the specific references. Sorry for that... Violet was lying, but I've learned we have to be careful to consider everything possible as a motive for these lies. The obvious possibility would be the crime itself. But she wasn't just "hiding" things about that date. So I wonder if she wasn't afraid of things leading to something else completely different - which might be the real motive behind the secrecy. Sometimes people have more then one skeleton in their closet. Violet's death created such a firestorm in America and across the ocean. New Jersey law enforcement was being crucified over Violet's death. England was condemning our police tactics, our media was critical of how police handled an innocent girl and Violet's family was saying that LE relentlessly pursued Violet to the point that she committed suicide to escape them. Generally yes, but specifically the fingers were pointing at Inspector Walsh. Curtis, for one, was full of public accusations. Edna blamed them for her death too, and to me, it was disingenuous to do so knowing that all interviews and follow-ups were due to the lies being told. Edna was lying too, so it looks to me like they got together on these lies before she left. It seems everyone everywhere thought that Violet was an innocent victim of our justice system. With all this outrage and indignation being expressed by England and Violet's family, why did they not arrange to have Violet's body returned so she could be buried in her homeland near her family? Instead Violet was buried by the Morrow family here in America. At the minimum, why didn't Violet's family arrange to have a headstone made for her burial plot? Where is the follow through that a grieving family arranges for a loved one? Am I missing something here? Did Violet's family seek custody of her remains but was denied for some reason? Can you comment on this Michael? I've never personally considered why. I guess this is a good example concerning how our Board "works." The Washington Post wrote that Violet's mother had collapsed upon learning the news, and that quoted her father George as saying she knew nothing about the crime and that she was always " one of the best and I never had any trouble with her." [ 6-12-32]. I've read that when Violet was buried, no one from either the Lindbergh or Morrow Families attended. A member of the British Consul attended along with Springer. I will have to check out my Springer file to see if there's anything about this there. I should also check any file that includes investigations in Europe, and I have also found a Report written by Wilson so I think I should follow that up in his File too. I am typing this out so everyone can see why I (sometimes) have such a hard go of it trying to locate specific facts that I've read - and also a reminder in case I forget one of these after going through a specific file (which happens more often then I'd like).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 11:33:15 GMT -5
I would appreciate you checking when you have the time. It just seems odd to me that her family would not have wanted her body brought back to England. But then this case has many things happening that don't seem to make sense!
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2014 22:05:05 GMT -5
I would appreciate you checking when you have the time. It just seems odd to me that her family would not have wanted her body brought back to England. But then this case has many things happening that don't seem to make sense! Okay so far no direct answer to your question. However, I did find this interesting tid-bit in a Report written by Agent Seykora: With reference to Violet Sharp, Mr. Springer stated that for some time prior to the kidnaping she had been in bad health and was quite depressed; that he understands that she had led a very unhappy life and had an unpleasant home life in England when she was a child, her father having frequently been intoxicated, at which times he beat her; that about a week before the kidnaping she had her tonsils removed, but did not regain her health as a result of this operation....
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Post by Michael on Feb 14, 2014 22:46:46 GMT -5
I just finished up the Scotland Yard Files. So far if there is an answer to your question I haven't been able to find it in the places I suspected the most would contain them. Here is something that I think might add to my previous post: I found the Sharp family to be poor but honest, respectable and hardworking. Nothing is known against them and they are held in the highest esteem locally.
I formed a good opinion of Miss Emily (Edna) Sharp and firmly believe that every part of her long statement was given honestly and that she would only be too glad to assist the authorities were she in a position to do so. (Horwell, J. Chief Inspector. New Scotland Yard Police Report. June 13, 1932, page 3) Here's something interesting he wrote in a later Report: I am not acquainted with the regular normal conduct of Mr. Sharpe, but on the 11th and 12th of June, 1932 when I visited his cottage at Beenham, Berkshire to obtain a statement from Emily (Edna) Sharpe I found him to be in a drunken quarrelsome state.
However, Mr. Sharpe was quite respectful to me and in consequence I attributed his condition to the recent sad news of the death of his daughter and to the free drinks which had undoubtedly been put before him by the crowd of press repoters and photographers I found surrounding his cottage.
On the other hand I gathered information that he was a hard working man and from my observations of the mother and various members of the family I formed a good impression as to their respectability.(Horwell, J. Chief Inspector. New Scotland Yard Police Report. July 25, 1932)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 17:44:59 GMT -5
I so appreciate you doing so much checking on this question. I am sure if Violet's family had made a request for her body to be returned to England you would have found evidence of it already. From what you have posted her family sounds like they would not have been financially able to bring Violet's body back home. How sad that Mrs. Morrow did not arrange this for Violet. Instead they chose to bury her here in America. Life is strange sometimes. Thanks Michael for checking on this.
Right now I can't say that I agree with Scotland Yard on the complete honesty of Edna's statement, especially concerning the last weekend of February 1932 and March 1. I think Edna knows more but like Violet will never tell it.
Would you know how Sepitmus Banks was affected by Violet's death? They were supposed to be romantically involved with each other. I believe he did attend her burial.
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Post by Michael on Feb 15, 2014 19:56:01 GMT -5
Would you know how Sepitmus Banks was affected by Violet's death? They were supposed to be romantically involved with each other. I believe he did attend her burial. Oh boy... Yes, I remember reading that Banks had a nervous breakdown and checked into a hospital. Now if I can just remember the source I may get lucky, find it, then quote the reference for you. (That's the hard part as I've quite oft demonstrated).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 15:51:10 GMT -5
Michael,
I was checking through the FBI Summary report on Violet Sharp when I came across something I wanted to ask you about. On page 119 it mentions that during Violet's May 21, 1932 interview (which I think took place at Hopewell) she mentions that "since her previous interview with Lieutenant Keaton, Ernie had called her on the telephone again and endeavored to take her out, but that she declined the invitation." Is this statement actually in that May 21 interview? If so, was any followup done, like checking the phone records at Englewood to see where this call came from?
Was the BOI looking for Ernie Brinkert at the same time as the NJSP? Did they find him first? I read a newspaper article where Brinkert says he was approached by someone and questioned and then told not to worry about anything. Then he says a day or two later a friend told him that the authorities were looking for him. Just checking since it was a newspaper article. Sometimes they are reliable and other times they are not.
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Post by Michael on Jul 28, 2014 7:06:05 GMT -5
I was checking through the FBI Summary report on Violet Sharp when I came across something I wanted to ask you about. On page 119 it mentions that during Violet's May 21, 1932 interview (which I think took place at Hopewell) she mentions that "since her previous interview with Lieutenant Keaton, Ernie had called her on the telephone again and endeavored to take her out, but that she declined the invitation." Is this statement actually in that May 21 interview? If so, was any followup done, like checking the phone records at Englewood to see where this call came from? The May 21st Statement does not exist, or if it does, I have been unable to find a copy. This was the one which was stopped due to Sharpe's health. There is a summary of it in an early FBI Report but it only contains the "usual" stuff. According to the FBI this interview was conducted in Hopewell. During follow-up interview, which was again taken in Hopewell, she says he called her again but, in essence, couldn't remember when. In her March 10th Statement she says they did have a 2nd date planned but that she could not keep it. The telephone number investigations began on July 5, 1932. It appears to me that they could only get "tickets" for the billable numbers dialed from the Englewood extensions. I don't see anything about incoming calls, so I have assumed they couldn't do that. What's interesting though, is that in the Fall of '33, they accidentally discovered a couple of private lines in the home they hadn't investigated. By the time they requested these records from the phone company extending back to March 1st they were told they had already been destroyed. (What's funny is that I accidentally found this information out myself because the report wasn't with the rest of these investigations). Was the BOI looking for Ernie Brinkert at the same time as the NJSP? Did they find him first? I read a newspaper article where Brinkert says he was approached by someone and questioned and then told not to worry about anything. Then he says a day or two later a friend told him that the authorities were looking for him. Just checking since it was a newspaper article. Sometimes they are reliable and other times they are not. There was a cross-over but the FBI was looking first. Their efforts were recorded in their reports which were being handed over to Schwarzkopf. Special Agent Murphy was able to locate him. He was interviewed then provided Murphy with an iron-clad alibi. Shortly after this an APB for Brinkert was issued by the NJSP to "arrest on sight." When the FBI learned of this they immediately called in to provide them with his location only to be told he had already been picked up - much to the delight of the Press. This whole episode upset the FBI because they felt their communications were being ignored or mishandled which plainly meant resources were being wasted. The NJSP would use this to say the FBI was conducting investigations behind their backs - which wasn't the case at all, clearly, because their reports were being forwarded. It seems to me the NJSP saw the value along these lines, after the fact and probably based on Kilmartin & Murphy's reports, then wanted to be the one's to bring him in. So anyway, it appears the newspaper article you have read might be referring to Agent Murphy's interview where he was told "not to worry." Don't know if he said that, but he obviously did not take him in so it makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 18:54:59 GMT -5
Thanks Michael for sharing so much about the phone call searches. I really need to keep in mind that all of this in happening in 1932 and phone logs were not what they are now! That discovery of the private phone lines in 1933 is interesting. I would think that Dwight Morrow Sr. might have had a special phone line because of the government positions he held while alive. Guess we will never know anything else about these lines!
I sure wish the FBI could have been closely involved with this kidnapping from the beginning. Or even Ellie Parker. How different this investigation would have turned out!!
I remember you telling me that the FBI Summary report was made up of a combination of reports and investigations from several sources. The summary report has a number of pages on Violet Sharp. They have a couple pages listing the names and addresses found in Violet's notebook. On page 123 one of the people they mention is Miss Edith Marshall who resides in New York City. She says she met Violet Sharp when they were both employed by Robert K. Hass of Scarsdale N.Y. Miss Marshall says that Violet worked for Mr. Hass just before she became employed at the Morrow Home. I have read Violet's March 10 statement. Violet claims that when she came to America from Canada she registered with Hutchinson's Employment Office in NYC. Ten days later she was interviewed by Mrs. Graeme from the Morrow residence and hired to work at the Morrow house. Violet does not mention her employment with Mr. Hass. Does she mention this previous employer in any of her other statements to the NJSP or is this something the FBI found out through their investigations of Violet Sharp?
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