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Post by hurtelable on Dec 10, 2014 18:14:18 GMT -5
This is compatible with Noel Behn's description of the recorded serial number bills in "Lindbergh: The Crime" (paperback, p. 203). But he makes no mention of any switching of non-recorded bills for recorded serial number bills and makes no mention of those 2 $ 10 Federal Reserve notes.
On the other hand, on p.76 of Elmer Irey's book that you linked to, he specifically talks of recording serial numbers of 5,150 ransom bills, whereas the above list amounts to a total of 4,750 pieces of currency. How would you explain the discrepancy between Irey on the one hand, and Behn and amy35 on the other?
BTW, is there any list of recorded ransom bill serial numbers (as printed in newspapers and given to banks and merchants) still available where the numbers of recovered bills are checked off or otherwise indicated? It may be too much to ask for, but if such a list could be found, it might help to prove or disprove amy35's theory of the switched currency.
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Post by Michael on Dec 10, 2014 19:36:30 GMT -5
1. The serial number record you mention, were those serial numbers listed in their packing order by denomination? 2. The packing order sequence spending theory of Rab's that you mention; is this sequence evident anywhere else in the recovered spent money besides the $10.00 gold notes? 3. Am I correct in assuming that the non-recorded $20 bills were federal reserve notes? 1. Yes but with clarification: Since this was never a main focus area of my research I will try to lay it out concerning how I understand what's in the Reports... There were (22) J. P. Morgan clerks that had been divided up into (11) 2-man teams. The bills were divided into the denominations specified then divided again among these various teams and these teams then listed the serial numbers. Once completed there were (3) packages representing & assembled one for each denomination. " The sequence of the bills as listed by the various teams was in the exact sequence in which that particular group of bills was turned over for the packing but that no record was made as to the sequence of the team packages as set up in the final three packages." It should be remembered that these (3) packages had to be divided in order to fit into the Ransom Box. 2. Not to my recollection, and I have never been 100% sold on that position. I do know there was a pattern found concerning the bills found in Hauptmann's garage but I have no idea what it actually means. For example, the team consisting of Garson/Hinton were to testify that bills found in Hauptmann's garage had been recorded by them on (6) straight pages of records. 3. I know the 20s were divided into classes before being recorded, but I haven't been able to find that specific answer for you.
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Post by Michael on Dec 10, 2014 19:45:19 GMT -5
Michael, one more thing I need to know. When all the serial numbers of the S50,000 package were recorded on March the 22nd and that money package was bundled and wrapped, is this the correct denominational breakdown of that $50,000 package that went into the GM's safe the evening of March 22, 1932? $20,000 in 20 dollar GOLD notes. (1000) $5,000 in 20 dollar FEDERAL RESERVE notes. (250) $14,980 in 10 dollar GOLD notes. (1498) $20 in 10 dollar FEDERAL RESERVE notes. (2) $10,000 in 5 dollar FEDERAL RESERVE note. (2000) No. There were $20,000 in 20s, $20,000 in 10s, $10,000 in 5s, and a package of $20,000 in 50s. Exactly how the 20s and 10s in this package were broken down I don't know as as of right now. But as you can see, they did not follow the Ransom Note's instructions and it was their explanation this is what caused them to "fix" this error on the 23rd by removing those 10s and adding $5000 more 20s.
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Post by Michael on Dec 10, 2014 19:50:44 GMT -5
This is compatible with Noel Behn's description of the recorded serial number bills in "Lindbergh: The Crime" (paperback, p. 203). But he makes no mention of any switching of non-recorded bills for recorded serial number bills and makes no mention of those 2 $ 10 Federal Reserve notes. Very few people know what I do Hurt. Not to sound vain, but I've been doing research for 14 years now. On the other hand, on p.76 of Elmer Irey's book that you linked to, he specifically talks of recording serial numbers of 5,150 ransom bills, whereas the above list amounts to a total of 4,750 pieces of currency. How would you explain the discrepancy between Irey on the one hand, and Behn and amy35 on the other? Don't forget the $50s that Condon removed.
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Post by Michael on Dec 10, 2014 19:53:27 GMT -5
As to Betty and Red, I remember hearing a story that they were caught in a comprising position of some sort, on Red's employer's yacht or something, and this was hushed up. Michael, can you shed some light on this? The Police caught them in Red's car in a compromising situation.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 10, 2014 19:55:49 GMT -5
When and where was this? And how compromising a position was it? Were they just making out, or had it gone further? Also, in your view, would this have been serious enough to put Betty in Lindbergh's figurative pocket somehow? Just hypothetically...
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Post by Michael on Dec 11, 2014 6:21:48 GMT -5
When and where was this? And how compromising a position was it? Were they just making out, or had it gone further? Also, in your view, would this have been serious enough to put Betty in Lindbergh's figurative pocket somehow? Just hypothetically... It was a situation where they were parked in his car, supposedly intoxicated, and half-dressed. I think they were brought in on disorderly conduct charges initially.
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 11, 2014 12:55:57 GMT -5
In other words, could the legal situation that Betty and Red were in have caused them to be blackmailed? One might think that, as aliens, they might have been threatened with immediate deportation if they don't follow CAL Sr.'s "script" as to what to say and what to do in the aftermath of the purported kidnapping.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 16:46:37 GMT -5
Here are some of my (quickly formed) observations concerning your working theory. This can be added to, subtracted from, or amended.... Pros: 1. Agent Fay's Report supports this testimony that Hinton and Cragin returned from the Bank on March 23, 1932 with BOTH groups of $50,000 and $20,000 non-recorded and $50,000 and $20,000 recorded serial numbers. (Extra information to consider: The report states that both packages were re-opened and $5,000 of the numbered $10 bills were switched with $5000 of the non recorded $20s. These $20 serial number listings were made and then were set forth in the original record. What remained was $45,000 non-recorded, $5000 of previously recorded $10s now removed from the record, and $20,000 non-recorded $50s.) 2. These packages of non-recorded bills remained at J. P. Morgan until redeposited on April 4, 1932. 3. Under these circumstances this theory cannot be ruled out. Cons: 1. S. W. Cragin, H. A. Watkins, D. R. Bowen, W. Echtermeyer, and F. D. Bartow would ALL have to be involved in this conspiracy. This excludes the possibility of J. Helmich's involvement as well. 2. How does this theory explain why only this amount was substituted - why wasn't all the Ransom substituted? 3. Since the recorded money was assembled and packaged according to denominations, how can it be explained that $5, $10, and $20 bills of recorded money were all discovered after being spent? Other: 1. How does this theory help or harm Rab's theory this money was being spent in it's packing order sequence? Here are a few comments and questions on your post. PROS:1) Great to have a report backing up that two sets of ransom money were brought back to J.P. Morgan together on March 23! What was the date of Agent Fay's report? Was Agent Fay present at J.P. Morgan on March 23 when the packages were brought back? Was he present when they were opened? 2) I think the presence of a second set of ransom bills remaining available until the ransom was actually paid is important. When you say this money was redeposited on April 4th 1932, would you know where it was deposited to? Cons:1) Who would actually be involved in a money switch would depend on when it would have occurred. Based on what I currently know from testimony, I am inclined to think the money would have been switched on March 23rd when both packages were open and present together in the same room. If done at this time, I definitely see both Mr. Cragin and Mr. Hinton involved, as they both testified to being present during this "fix". I would also include whoever called Cragin and Hinton and told them to return to J.P. Morgan with both sets of ransom money. At this time, I do not see J. Helmich having any involvement other than to repackage a "corrected" package of ransom money and then a counted package of ransom money on April 2, 1932. Helmich was not present on April 2 while the money was being counted at Bartow's house, according to testimony. 2) Why $30,000, give or take a couple hundred, was switched is hard to say. They couldn't change it all out. Thirty thousand is more than half the ransom amount. Some of the recorded bills would have to remain a part of the package. Once some of the recorded bills started showing up in cirrculation, the Treasury Department would have been in the clear of aiding a felony, which was a concern of Irey's, plus Lindbergh would have looked like he was on the right side of things by cooperating with the Treasury Dept. and J.P. Morgan is beyond questionable when the lack of spent money becomes apparent over time. After all, they were responsible for recording those serial numbers and assembling those packages of money. Everybody is as shiny as a new penny. 3) This is probably the most difficult aspect to address. I think it goes to the heart of whether only one person was in control of all the ransom money or several people had money. I have always thought the lack of circulated money spoke in favor of one person spending or controlling it. They are being cautious once they learn through the newspapers that serial numbers were recorded. However, if the money were split between several persons, each receiving a portion of 5's, 10's and 20's that could also account for recorded serial numbers of all the denominations appearing. But I am not sold on this idea. The recorded money is not appearing fast enough or in a large enough quantity in circulation as you would expect if multiple people are spending it. I am still thinking about this angle and considering other possibilities. Other: I actually don't think it impacts it. Rab's theory is based on the $10 dollar gold certificates. Since less than $10,000 of the $15,000 in 10's were recovered from all sources(the largest amount coming from Hauptmann's garage) it may indicate that Hauptmann had been the one spending the gold note 10's but I don't think that can be said for certain. Someone else could have spent them and then Hauptmann received the balance of the 10's still in their packing order from another source.
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 11, 2014 21:32:36 GMT -5
mike 14 years? I remember when you started. now im the old 20 year has been
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Post by Michael on Dec 12, 2014 17:24:28 GMT -5
Here are a few comments and questions on your post. What was the date of Agent Fay's report? Was Agent Fay present at J.P. Morgan on March 23 when the packages were brought back? Was he present when they were opened? When you say this money was redeposited on April 4th 1932, would you know where it was deposited to? Fay's Report is from October of '34, and he was not present when they were opened. I want to quickly comment on the frustration I feel for never considering Amy's theory when I was reading the reports even for the 1st time. Frame of mind is extremely important when reviewing and researching. My mindset was this situation was a "cluster eff" so I was thinking in the confusion a mistake may have happened. Once I finally got to the part where Fay stressed that none of the unrecorded money made it to Condon, I was annoyed but completely satisfied. Whether or not Amy's theory is correct, these types of things should always be considered. Agent Fay was not there, and he is reporting what was told to him by those who were. Since this theory suggests they were involved in the switch it was a mistake for me to overlook the possibilities which could have existed. I say this on the heels of boasting 14 years of research because it proves I am not immune from making mistakes or missing stuff, and it's why this Board is so important to getting to the truth of every small detail the best we can because everyone's perspective is important. To answer your next question I have to try to explain why I believe what I do: An original amount of $50K was withdrawn from First National Bank of New York on March 2nd. Those bills were definitely redeposited on March 14 to that Bank. My conclusion based upon this is that where ever the bills were drawn from then that is where they were re-deposited. The non-recorded 50K that was supposed to have been redeposited on April 4th came from First National. However, while I don't think it upsets my position, the 50K of the original recorded bills came from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York so the $5000 swap between the 10 and 20 bills occurred between the two meaning that amount came from different Banks.
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Post by Michael on Dec 12, 2014 17:25:21 GMT -5
mike 14 years? I remember when you started. now im the old 20 year has been I know. I guess this means I'm starting to get old.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 12, 2014 20:15:50 GMT -5
Michael, when exactly did this thing happen with Betty and Red?
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Post by Michael on Dec 13, 2014 9:03:16 GMT -5
Michael, when exactly did this thing happen with Betty and Red? Apparently it happened more then once, but those were supposedly just warnings. On New Years Eve, 1932, it looks like they were actually brought in. What's funny to me is that we always hear how "wild" Violet was but I've never seen anything like this attributable to her.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 10:49:29 GMT -5
I like the point you make about this type of behavior not being indicated more definitively with Violet Sharp. Red and Betty being brought into the stationhouse but actually not charged with anything would have narrowed the spectrum of people knowing about this "activity". How would this incident become known to an outside kidnapper(s)that Betty, especially, was vulnerable to being used as an inside person for this crime? Or might the planners of the kidnapping have used Red Johnson's illegal status in this country along with a threat of deportation in order to get information about Charlie and the family, instead of approaching Betty?
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Post by Michael on Dec 13, 2014 18:16:17 GMT -5
Red and Betty being brought into the stationhouse but actually not charged with anything would have narrowed the spectrum of people knowing about this "activity". I have a couple of different sources for this issue and one specifically says the Palisades Park Police got "tired" of the repeated violations of the parking regulations after park hours and brought them in where they actually registered Red as a "disorderly person."
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Post by stella7 on Dec 13, 2014 23:27:12 GMT -5
Strange that he was not deported at that point since he was an illegal, or do you think they only discovered Red's illegal status after the kidnapping.
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Post by Michael on Dec 14, 2014 9:38:08 GMT -5
Strange that he was not deported at that point since he was an illegal, or do you think they only discovered Red's illegal status after the kidnapping. I think the system for deportation fell to the Dept. of Labor and/or the Agencies watching the Ports. For example, I've seen plenty of NJSP Reports where someone tells the Officers, point blank, they aren't citizens and do not have their "1st papers" and no action is taken whatsoever. You'll remember that Hauptmann not only had a driver's license, he was in the accident where Begg was injured. It was part of the outrage once he was arrested, that is, a German in the country illegally being the culprit in this crime.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 10:11:40 GMT -5
Red and Betty being brought into the stationhouse but actually not charged with anything would have narrowed the spectrum of people knowing about this "activity". I have a couple of different sources for this issue and one specifically says the Palisades Park Police got "tired" of the repeated violations of the parking regulations after park hours and brought them in where they actually registered Red as a "disorderly person." So, I am now wondering why Betty and Red would go back repeatedly to the same park to engage in the same kind of behavior. Why are they pushing the envelope this way? Why not take this to some other remote spot? Is there some type of thinking going on that because Betty worked for the Lindberghs, it would just be tolerated? Like Stella says, Johnson risks being found out as being in the country illegally. Do you know if LaMont knew that Johnson was not not in America legally? If you have something you can post about Red being charged with being a "disorderly person", please post it.
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 14, 2014 10:17:52 GMT -5
even if lamont did I don't think he would have cared. after the crime lamont put steel bars around his windows at his house or mansion. another good book amy is walsh mcleans bio "queen of diamonds" by her great grandson, it has her memoirs and book she wrote in 1936 in this one but with more pictures. she talks about her involvement in this case
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 14, 2014 12:00:07 GMT -5
I would suppose that Robert Zorn would be interested in the Palisades Park connection you mentioned, although he didn't include it in his book. Zorn claims that the kidnap plot was hatched at Palisades Park in June 1931 between Zorn's father's older "friend," John Knoll, and Hauptmann. (FWIW, I am highly doubtful of Zorn's theory.)
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Post by Michael on Dec 14, 2014 18:26:09 GMT -5
If you have something you can post about Red being charged with being a "disorderly person", please post it. I keep having this recollection that Lloyd's had something about this in his book but I must be mistaken because I cannot find it. It's driving me crazy because when these memories come back to me like this I am usually right - maybe it's another book? In any event: Finally, becoming fed up with these repeated violations on the part of the above, Officer George E. Rhodes of the Interstate Park Police (Palisades Interstate Park) at the hour of 4:00 A.M., January 1st, 1932, brought Betty Gow and Red Johnson in the latters automobile, to the Palisades Interstate Park Police Headquarters located at Closter, N.J., where Johnson was registered as a disorderly person, and, in respect to the good name of Colonel and Anne Lindbergh, Betty Gow and Red Johnson were dismissed with a warning. They were not held at headquarters longer then was necessary to register Johnson. (Officer Winslow P. Humphrey, Elizabeth Police Department, Report made for Governor Hoffman, March 3, 1936)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 19:32:42 GMT -5
even if lamont did I don't think he would have cared. after the crime lamont put steel bars around his windows at his house or mansion. another good book amy is walsh mcleans bio "queen of diamonds" by her great grandson, it has her memoirs and book she wrote in 1936 in this one but with more pictures. she talks about her involvement in this case Wow! Steel bars on his windows? I guess many of the rich and famous became frightened for their children's safety and did a lot of things to prevent any kidnapping attempts on family members. Since Johnson worked on their yacht and not in the house, perhaps Lamont didn't feel like he needed to run any background check on those employees. Thanks for telling me about Evalyn Walsh McClean's book. I have not spent much time on the McClean/Walsh angle of this case. Another thing to add to my "to do" list for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 19:40:02 GMT -5
If you have something you can post about Red being charged with being a "disorderly person", please post it. I keep having this recollection that Lloyd's had something about this in his book but I must be mistaken because I cannot find it. It's driving me crazy because when these memories come back to me like this I am usually right - maybe it's another book? In any event: Finally, becoming fed up with these repeated violations on the part of the above, Officer George E. Rhodes of the Interstate Park Police (Palisades Interstate Park) at the hour of 4:00 A.M., January 1st, 1932, brought Betty Gow and Red Johnson in the latters automobile, to the Palisades Interstate Park Police Headquarters located at Closter, N.J., where Johnson was registered as a disorderly person, and, in respect to the good name of Colonel and Anne Lindbergh, Betty Gow and Red Johnson were dismissed with a warning. They were not held at headquarters longer then was necessary to register Johnson. (Officer Winslow P. Humphrey, Elizabeth Police Department, Report made for Governor Hoffman, March 3, 1936)
When I read your quote, I knew I had read that report before on this board. I did a little searching and found you had posted it back in June of 2008 on the "Betty Gow Facts" thread, page 4. That thread is located in the General discussion section of this board. Unfortunately, Michael, the link to this report no longer works. Is there any way it can be fixed?
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 14, 2014 23:35:50 GMT -5
I know I'm interjecting here, kdwv8, but Jan. 1, 1932 was two months BEFORE the purported kidnapping, which occurred on March 1, 1932!
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Post by jack7 on Dec 15, 2014 4:52:43 GMT -5
This Red & Betty bad stuff is in one of the books because I know I've read it, but can't remember which book and it's hard to find things in most of the books. There may be more information in the book version because it seems to me that CAL had to go and get them. Doing the same thing after they'd been caught (several times?) implies that they'd been drinking but I don't remember that coming out in the book version. Is Palisades Interstate Park the same as Palisades Park? Is it near Hopewell? I remember the song and always figured it was a pretty big place.
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Post by Michael on Dec 15, 2014 6:15:20 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Michael, the link to this report no longer works. Is there any way it can be fixed? Is Palisades Interstate Park the same as Palisades Park? Is it near Hopewell? I remember the song and always figured it was a pretty big place. Especially books with no index. I've spent a ton of time creating 'cheat-sheets' to them so I at least have a reference point for various subjects. Palisades Park is near Englewood: www.njpalisades.org/
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Post by stella7 on Dec 15, 2014 9:52:57 GMT -5
Yes, a blast from the past, I always wanted to go there as a kid www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAvTZhPthc. Apparently it closed because the wealthy nearby towns couldn't stand all the traffic.
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Post by jack7 on Dec 15, 2014 11:32:20 GMT -5
Sounds like those snooties, Stella.
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 15, 2014 18:11:59 GMT -5
There seems to be some confusion about this, so here goes:
Palisades Interstate Park is a public park which essentially occupies a narrow strip of land extending about ten miles along the west bank of the Hudson River. The southern end of the strip borders Fort Lee, NJ, and the northern end extends just a tad across the state line into New York, which is why it is called "Interstate."
The song we remember was a commercial jingle for the privately owned Palisades Amusement Park. As far as I can tell, the now defunct Palisades Amusement Park was never part of the still existing Palisades Interstate Park, and was located south of it along the Hudson.
Then there is a municipality called Palisades Park, NJ, which is located just west of Fort Lee.
No, Palisades Interstate Park is no where near Hopewell, but it is close to Englewood, where Betty Gow was working for the Lindberghs most of the time in the months before the purported kidnapping.
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