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Post by Michael on Dec 7, 2014 10:33:19 GMT -5
Forgive me Michael if I don't believe that. No apologies necessary. Believe me, like Hurt, I am excited to see your ideas about this....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 21:06:32 GMT -5
A TALE OF TWO RANSOMS Trial Transcript, Page 1507, Testimony of Mr. Stuart W. Cragin, J.P. Morgan Employee who supervised the assembly of the ransom packets with recorded serial numbers on March 22, 1932. Direct Examination by Mr. Anthony Hauck for the Prosecution. Q(Hauck) - After the package of money was prepared on the 22nd of March what was done with it? A(Cragin) - It was put in the safe of the general manager's office and kept in there overnight.
Q(Hauck) - Mr. Cragin, what happened the next morning with the two parcels of money? And I am speaking now of the fifty thousand package and the twenty thousand package. A(Cragin) - Mr. Hinton and I took the two packages up to the Fordham branch of the Corn Exchange the following morning, that was the 23rd of March. When we got there we had a call from the office saying that there had been an error in the amounts of the denominations so we decided rather than try to make a substitution there we would bring the packages back to the office which we did along with the packages which were up there of unlisted money which we had substituted.Anyone who has ever been interested in the Lindbergh Kidnapping Case has wondered whatever happened to the $30,000 dollars of ransom money that was never recovered. Was Isidor Fisch laundering all this ransom money for himself and Hauptmann? Was Hauptmann making many daily shopping trips buying who knows what trying to turn this money into clean money? How was Hauptmann buying things like a new radio, a canoe, expensive prize-fight tickets, new dresses for Anna's trip to Germany, her 1932 trip to Germany with expense money for spending while in Germany. He is supposedly doing all these things and more with ransom money yet there is no large influx of ransom money into circulation in 1932 to account for this spending activity. No ransom notes are traced back to any of this spending. When I read Cragin's testimony that I quoted above, I saw a possible answer to the unaccounted for ransom money. Cragin and Hinton go to the Corn Exchange back with the two packages of ransom money that had recorded serial numbers. While at the bank they are called to come back to J.P. Morgan Company and bring the two packages with the recorded serial numbers with them. At this time Cragin and Hinton also bring back with them the two packages of previously packaged ransom money that had been placed at the Corn Exchange Bank earlier in March. These two packages had been assemble with money that did not have recorded serial numbers. Cragin and Hinton return to J.P. Morgan Company with two ransoms - one with recorded serial numbers and one without recorded numbers. What I theorize may have occured is that $30,000 dollars of recorded serial number bills from the $50,000 package were replaced with $30,000 dollars of unrecorded serial number bills. When the ransom was paid on April 2, 1932 the kidnapper(s) had $30,000 in clean money to spend and I have no doubt they did just that.
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Post by Michael on Dec 8, 2014 17:03:40 GMT -5
Great theory Amy and I can appreciate the work it takes to put it together. I've got a question before I look at what I have to see if I can't form arguments for and/or against it. Sometimes, with unique ideas like this, researching more creates even a bigger mystery but let's hope not... Anyway, my question is whether or not you feel this would have been accidental or on purpose?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 20:35:17 GMT -5
Great theory Amy and I can appreciate the work it takes to put it together. I've got a question before I look at what I have to see if I can't form arguments for and/or against it. Sometimes, with unique ideas like this, researching more creates even a bigger mystery but let's hope not... Anyway, my question is whether or not you feel this would have been accidental or on purpose? If this really happened, I think it was the result of a planned action. Lindbergh was against recording serial numbers or any other means of tracking the ransom money. Irey gave Lindbergh what amounted to an ultimatum. Either Lindbergh allows the serial numbers to be recorded or Irey and the Treasury department will remove themselves from the case. Lindbergh is now between a rock and a hard place. He wants to avoid a falling out with the Treasury department but he doesn't want to use traceable money for the ransom. What to do??? What I think Lindbergh did was privately approach J.P. Morgan, explain his delicate position and together it was decided that Lindbergh would concede to Irey 's wishes but then a portion of the recorded serial money would be switched out with the clean money that J.P. Morgan had already placed at the Fordham branch of the Corn Exchange Bank. Both Lindbergh and J.P. Morgan Co. officials realized some of the recorded bills would have to stay with the ransom payoff. Lindbergh could not pay a $50,000 dollar ransom with recorded serial numbers and then absolutely no money is ever recovered. So with a plan in place, Lindbergh agrees to Irey's terms. He allows the recording of the serial numbers. On March 22, 1932 this is done by J.P. Morgan; the two packets of recorded serial money are made up and the next day March 23, 1932, some of the money is switched out. This is all just a theory I have been working on which seems to answer a lot of the questions I mention in my original post. I appreciate whatever time you can give to researching this. Should I give it further consideration or should I put it in my circular file?? Thanks!
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 8, 2014 20:50:26 GMT -5
amy did you read "the tax dodgers"? it explains a little of what happen
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 21:04:38 GMT -5
amy did you read "the tax dodgers"? it explains a little of what happen No Steve, I have not read that book. Can you tell me anything about what it says? Will it be helpful for me to read it?
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 8, 2014 21:39:36 GMT -5
To amy35 and All:
Wow, this is a theory I had never heard of before, which doesn't mean that one should accept or reject it at first glance. But in order for the ransom package to have contained $30,000 of unrecorded serial number bills, it would seem as if someone in a high position at J. P. Morgan, by replacing the recorded serial number bills with the unrecorded ones, would have known that he'd be playing a trick on the Treasury Dept. agents. Normally, that would not be a wise game to play. So what may have been the motivation for the switcheroo? Did Lindbergh order the J.P. Morgan people to do it, perhaps trying to protect (partially) the ransom receiver(s) from legal repercussions? Were the T-men themselves corrupt enough to let such a switch happen? What would the J.P. Morgan people have to gain from it?
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Post by stella7 on Dec 8, 2014 22:15:37 GMT -5
I wonder, then, what did JP Morgan do with the $30,000 of recorded bills? Did they destroy them? Also, what explanation Lindbergh could have given them to justify the switch. Just playing devil's advocate here, I think this is a great theory.
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Post by rebekah on Dec 8, 2014 22:31:10 GMT -5
"What I theorize may have occured is that $30,000 dollars of recorded serial number bills from the $50,000 package were replaced with $30,000 dollars of unrecorded serial number bills. When the ransom was paid on April 2, 1932 the kidnapper(s) had $30,000 in clean money to spend and I have no doubt they did just that."--Amy35
You are really good! Thanks, Amy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 22:43:57 GMT -5
To amy35 and All:
Wow, this is a theory I had never heard of before, which doesn't mean that one should accept or reject it at first glance. But in order for the ransom package to have contained $30,000 of unrecorded serial number bills, it would seem as if someone in a high position at J. P. Morgan, by replacing the recorded serial number bills with the unrecorded ones, would have known that he'd be playing a trick on the Treasury Dept. agents. Normally, that would not be a wise game to play. So what may have been the motivation for the switcheroo? Did Lindbergh order the J.P. Morgan people to do it, perhaps trying to protect (partially) the ransom receiver(s) from legal repercussions? Were the T-men themselves corrupt enough to let such a switch happen? What would the J.P. Morgan people have to gain from it?
I think that Lindbergh would have known who to go to at J.P. Morgan for assistance. Lindbergh and the Morrow family were well known to those at the top at J.P. Morgan Co. This bank was involved from the beginning with assembling the ransom money. The Treasury Dept would have never known about a switch. Some of the recorded serial number bills stayed in place. When they started to show up slowly in bank deposits, that was proof the ransom was paid with recorded bills. End of story for the Treasury Dept. Lindbergh's motivation for the switch is rooted in the public pledge he made to the kidnappers which he released to the newspapers on March 3. In that pledge he promised them confidentiality and would not try in injure in any way those connected with the return of the child. Lindbergh felt he was honoring that pledge by giving them money that could not be traced. In return he expected them to return his son alive and well. Like I said in my earlier post, I believe Lindbergh went to someone he was close to at J.P. Morgan for help and a plan was worked out. The Treasury agents knew nothing about what took place on March 23rd in the privacy of a J.P. Morgan office. Gain? The J. P. Morgan people were helping one of their own, Lindbergh. This is just a theory I have been working on. Thanks for asking those questions.
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 8, 2014 22:45:06 GMT -5
amy the tax dodgers is written by elmer irey and one chapter is on the Lindbergh case and his involvement. but it has other chapters on how he got capone, waxie Gordon, huey long, torrio and a few others. it was published in 1948
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Post by stella7 on Dec 8, 2014 22:58:49 GMT -5
Amy, you're really on to something here, this would explain a lot! Maybe the rich bankers buried the unused $30,000 in Summit, NJ.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 23:04:31 GMT -5
I wonder, then, what did JP Morgan do with the $30,000 of recorded bills? Did they destroy them? Also, what explanation Lindbergh could have given them to justify the switch. Just playing devil's advocate here, I think this is a great theory. Personally, I think they would have destroyed those bills. I am sure this would have been discussed in the private meeting. I believe I discussed the explanation Lindbergh would have given to the Morgan people in the post I made to Hurtelable. Lindbergh had made a pledge to the kidnappers and he was trying to honor it...confidentiality and protection from harm...the same thing Condon would offer in his letter to the kidnappers in the Bronx Home News on March the 8th. Weird, isn't it? I appreciate your questions and comments. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 23:11:09 GMT -5
"What I theorize may have occured is that $30,000 dollars of recorded serial number bills from the $50,000 package were replaced with $30,000 dollars of unrecorded serial number bills. When the ransom was paid on April 2, 1932 the kidnapper(s) had $30,000 in clean money to spend and I have no doubt they did just that."--Amy35 You are really good! Thanks, Amy. Thanks for saying that Rebekah. But will my theory pass the "Michael" test?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 23:14:24 GMT -5
amy the tax dodgers is written by elmer irey and one chapter is on the Lindbergh case and his involvement. but it has other chapters on how he got capone, waxie Gordon, huey long, torrio and a few others. it was published in 1948 That sounds like a really good book and is probably something I should have read. 1948??? Ugh! I will have to check around on ebay and places like that to see if a copy is available. Thanks Steve.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 23:19:37 GMT -5
Amy, you're really on to something here, this would explain a lot! Maybe the rich bankers buried the unused $30,000 in Summit, NJ. HA! I think you were right on with the bankers destroying it. This theory really shoots down any hope of finding that $30,000 dollars somewhere. But then, I could be all wrong, so don't stop looking!!
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 9, 2014 12:29:16 GMT -5
amy maybe somebody has that chapter online. ask mike. I bought my copy at a bookstore for 16 dollars. im glad I did I don't see it anywhere
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Post by jack7 on Dec 9, 2014 13:04:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure ANYBODY would do that if they considered the downside. There'd be Federal and State felonies along with the possibility of implication in capital murder.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 14:30:25 GMT -5
amy maybe somebody has that chapter online. ask mike. I bought my copy at a bookstore for 16 dollars. im glad I did I don't see it anywhere $16.00 at a book store. Lucky you. Do you think it might be on Ronelle's board somewhere. Maybe I will check there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 14:51:44 GMT -5
I'm not sure ANYBODY would do that if they considered the downside. There'd be Federal and State felonies along with the possibility of implication in capital murder. I think they would have done that for Lindbergh. J.P. Morgan was a powerhouse international banking company. They held the pursestrings on many people and governments. They set international banking policies. I don't think they would have blinked an eye over helping Lindbergh. They were helping Lindbergh save his son's life, Jack. No one was looking over J.P. Morgan's shoulder during this. I seriously doubt ANYONE would have done that. During the Hauptmann trial in Flemington, all the main J.P. Morgan employees who assited with the ransom money were put on the stand by Wilentz. They all testified to how the money was handled and counted and then counted again and serial numbers checked, changed, and rechecked as was needed. Not one of these men were cross-examined. NONE! Not even the mailing room man who talked about repacking the bundles of money the final time on April 2, 1932. No one questioned anything. Their testimony was delivered as one neat and clean package...just like a certain nursery was the evening of March 1, 1932.
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Post by Michael on Dec 9, 2014 17:12:55 GMT -5
amy maybe somebody has that chapter online. ask mike. I bought my copy at a bookstore for 16 dollars. im glad I did I don't see it anywhere Ronelle has it uploaded on her site: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/irey.pdf
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 9, 2014 19:14:25 GMT -5
thanks mike I keep forgeting ronnelle had this
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Post by Michael on Dec 9, 2014 19:52:42 GMT -5
Here are some of my (quickly formed) observations concerning your working theory. This can be added to, subtracted from, or amended....
Pros:
1. Agent Fay's Report supports this testimony that Hinton and Cragin returned from the Bank on March 23, 1932 with BOTH groups of $50,000 and $20,000 non-recorded and $50,000 and $20,000 recorded serial numbers.
(Extra information to consider: The report states that both packages were re-opened and $5,000 of the numbered $10 bills were switched with $5000 of the non recorded $20s. These $20 serial number listings were made and then were set forth in the original record. What remained was $45,000 non-recorded, $5000 of previously recorded $10s now removed from the record, and $20,000 non-recorded $50s.)
2. These packages of non-recorded bills remained at J. P. Morgan until redeposited on April 4, 1932.
3. Under these circumstances this theory cannot be ruled out.
Cons:
1. S. W. Cragin, H. A. Watkins, D. R. Bowen, W. Echtermeyer, and F. D. Bartow would ALL have to be involved in this conspiracy. This excludes the possibility of J. Helmich's involvement as well.
2. How does this theory explain why only this amount was substituted - why wasn't all the Ransom substituted?
3. Since the recorded money was assembled and packaged according to denominations, how can it be explained that $5, $10, and $20 bills of recorded money were all discovered after being spent?
Other: 1. How does this theory help or harm Rab's theory this money was being spent in it's packing order sequence?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 0:07:41 GMT -5
Thanks Michael for the feedback on my theory!
I have a couple of questions I need answers to so I can formulate a better response.
1. The serial number record you mention, were those serial numbers listed in their packing order by denomination?
2. The packing order sequence spending theory of Rab's that you mention; is this sequence evident anywhere else in the recovered spent money besides the $10.00 gold notes?
Am I correct in assuming that the non-recorded $20 bills were federal reserve notes?
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Post by jack7 on Dec 10, 2014 7:24:26 GMT -5
How would having part of the ransom money unrecorded help Charles get his son back?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 14:27:36 GMT -5
How would having part of the ransom money unrecorded help Charles get his son back? There seems to be some kind of weird honor thing going on with this kidnapping/ransom situation. I will play fair if you play fair. Lindbergh wanted to pay the entire ransom with untraceable money to get his son back. He had to compromise on that(include some serial number money) but that is something the kidnappers won't know until they use the money. Of course, Lindbergh thought he would have his son returned to him before it would be discovered that not all the money was clean. If Lindbergh isn't doing it to get his son back, it would mean that he was trying to prevent the perps from being apprehended for some other reason, would it not?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 14:54:21 GMT -5
Michael, one more thing I need to know. When all the serial numbers of the S50,000 package were recorded on March the 22nd and that money package was bundled and wrapped, is this the correct denominational breakdown of that $50,000 package that went into the GM's safe the evening of March 22, 1932?
$20,000 in 20 dollar GOLD notes. (1000) $5,000 in 20 dollar FEDERAL RESERVE notes. (250) $14,980 in 10 dollar GOLD notes. (1498) $20 in 10 dollar FEDERAL RESERVE notes. (2) $10,000 in 5 dollar FEDERAL RESERVE note. (2000)
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Post by jack7 on Dec 10, 2014 14:59:30 GMT -5
It just doesn't seem like the recording of the bills would have anything to do with getting the child back unless the kidnappers had a person at Morgan - I'd think very few people would have knowledge of the recording. It is possible they had someone on the inside at Hopewell or else CJ was running back and forth to the woods outside CAL's home to make sure the body was still there, and he didn't just run into a bunch of police when he tried to collect the money. I've always felt that some rude pictures of Betty and Red might be a big part of this crime.
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 10, 2014 15:08:44 GMT -5
rude pictures? having sex? cant imagine that
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 10, 2014 16:55:01 GMT -5
It looks to me like he was trying to prevent the kidnappers from being identified. This "square dealing" thing always rang kind of false to me. As to Betty and Red, I remember hearing a story that they were caught in a comprising position of some sort, on Red's employer's yacht or something, and this was hushed up. Michael, can you shed some light on this?
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