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Post by Michael on Mar 2, 2014 10:25:18 GMT -5
The page labeled "False Statements Made by Dr. Condon" is interesting. Did Gov. Hoffmann have someone keeping track of all the claims Condon had/was making in the newspapers? It's hard to answer that question in a way that can be easily explained. When researching through his collection its easy to get an overall understanding about how the Governor put together his material in this way. As it relates to Condon, I'd say about 80% of his information came from the observations/investigations of Ho-age. He also had the benefit of Lloyd Fisher handing him certain Defense materials/arguments/strategies which they had prepared after Hauptmann's conviction. And of course you had the millions of other things being brought to and/or pointed out to him from Citizens and the multitude of PIs working different angles. I believe Conklin may have typed this particular document up for him as he did for other things related to this crime.
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Post by Michael on Mar 2, 2014 10:47:08 GMT -5
Would you know Michael if they visited Highfields and Mt. Rose? The first photo shows David Wilentz (white fendora) and Col. Schwarzkopf looking over at St Raymonds. Do you know if the jury was ever taken to any of the sites involved in this case? I know they had visited Highfields multiple times but as to the dates I don't have that in front of me. I believe the Jury took one trip but not to the sites. It was more to get them out of the hotel. If you want me to I could look up the specifics for you. awesome finds amy! that aerial picture shows quite a dog-leg turn, is that road/lane that faces the cemetery not a real road? was wondering why Lindy didn't part along it instead. maybe too afraid of spooking CJ by moving his car? Condon was following the instructions in the note: Also, Lindbergh wasn't supposed to be the one driving the car. Once Condon retrieved the note (pictured above) he stood by the car for a period of time Lindbergh claimed was unusually long. Lindbergh said the reason being, according to Condon, was to give time to the Kidnappers to identify him. Lo and behold that's when the Look-Out came strolling down Tremont checking them both out. He walked with an "unusual gait" (I presume so Condon would know who he was). I am certain he expected to see Al Reich and not Lindbergh there. Of course when reading the note, its impossible to understand exactly how Condon knew someone connected with the Kidnappers would come by to "identify" him. Or, at this point, is it really?
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kdwv8
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Post by kdwv8 on Mar 2, 2014 15:27:06 GMT -5
Michael, you metioned Leon Hoage. Do you know what his take on all of this was? Did he believe BRH was the the kidnapper or did he think someaone else was responsible?
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Post by Michael on Mar 2, 2014 19:04:32 GMT -5
Michael, you metioned Leon Hoage. Do you know what his take on all of this was? Did he believe BRH was the the kidnapper or did he think someaone else was responsible? It's important that I mention I am aware of certain things he's authored that I have never read. However, what exists at the NJSP Archive I am completely certain that I have read each and every of those. What I saw Ho-age do was dissect certain people, and evidence as it related to what was used against Hauptmann. For example, He saw that Condon told Turrou it was not Hauptmann, therefore, he concluded his eventual identification was flawed. He studies Hochmuth and concluded the man could not see, therefore, he chalked up his testimony as nothing more then perjury. He studied the original crime scene photos as well as the reports. So his focus was not on Hauptmann himself, or at least, not from what I have seen. What I see him conclude, beyond all doubt, is that the original crime was an "inside job." Here's an example of this: He also believed this was NOT a "one-man" job. When I see him mentioning Hauptmann he often said things like..... he was convicted on perjury and fabricated evidence. Or that he wasn't guilty of that crime. So I don't know whether or not he believed, with 100% certainty, that he had no connection to anything whatsoever surrounding this entire event. He was extremely upset that the State used perjured testimony to convict - so I think he would proclaim Hauptmann "innocent" in this context. For example, he was one of several "Guest" speakers at an event in Yorkville in Dec. '37 in which the press dubbed a "Hauptmann was innocent" rally. Here he told the crowd: "The authorities have made of Hauptmann a man with two pair of legs and four feet. They have made a wonderful wizard of him and a damn fool of the other fellow." When Ho-age first sent a letter to Gov. Hoffman offering his assistance, among his references was a DA from NY, and (2) NYPD Police Officers - one being Lt. Finn.
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Post by chrisyb65 on Jun 16, 2014 17:25:28 GMT -5
In reading all the information, one of the facts surrounding the ransom is that it was not recovered in its entirety. Is anyone sure the ransom amount delivered was actually the full amount?
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Post by Michael on Jun 16, 2014 20:11:47 GMT -5
In reading all the information, one of the facts surrounding the ransom is that it was not recovered in its entirety. Is anyone sure the ransom amount delivered was actually the full amount? I'd say I am certain the package that left with Condon and Lindbergh was the full amount.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Dec 3, 2014 10:43:25 GMT -5
Why would CAL allow Condon to give them only fifty when they asked for seventy? The ransom is one very good example of us all not seeing the forest for the trees. It's an outside possibility that that got Charlie killed, that or calling the police before even reading the note. For one thing Charles did not pay the 50k - know who did Michael? It's unknown who paid the twenty, only that it was delivered to Condon's house by Breckenridge and laundered by Irey. What would you think of a person who refused to come up with money which could have been gotten almost instantly to insure the safety of one of their children?
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 3, 2014 11:37:36 GMT -5
i don't know if Lindbergh gave the okay
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Dec 3, 2014 13:04:43 GMT -5
Well he eventionally left the car with only fifty.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 15:21:58 GMT -5
Well he eventionally left the car with only fifty. Yes Condon did only take $50,000 with him to pay CJ. Condon told Lindbergh he was able to get CJ to accept $50,000 instead of the $70,000. We are supposed to believe that Condon played a sympathy card about it being hard times and Lindbergh wasn't really that rich of a man so how about you take $50,000 instead. Seriously!!?? Charlie's life is in the balance here and Condon re-negotiates the ransom payment right there on the spot?? Unbelievable! Or how about not believable. There are no witnesses to how this cemetery exchange went down. Why should we believe it went the way Condon says it did? Maybe he didn't take the other $20,000 along for a different reason.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Dec 3, 2014 15:44:33 GMT -5
Right Amy. And that's just one impossible to believe if you truly look at it thing about TLC. The worst is no fingerprints in the nursery. If you think about it the only way that could have happened is by CAL wiping it or having someone else wipe it.I don't know how long that would take but it might even throw the timeline of everything off to do it thoroughly. Instead everybody just says, "oh, no fingerprints" and moves on. Even the Hopewell policemen should have called him on that one but as far as I know he was never even asked about it.
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Post by Michael on Dec 3, 2014 19:58:43 GMT -5
For one thing Charles did not pay the 50k - know who did Michael? It's unknown who paid the twenty, only that it was delivered to Condon's house by Breckenridge and laundered by Irey. Not sure what you mean. I've seen you mention this before, and I believe somewhere it's said that Mrs. Morrow covered it, but without burning up hours trying to find that source I will simply go with this: Sometime on March 2, 1932, Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh got in touch with the firm of J. P. Morgan & Co., Wall & Broad Streets, New York City and requested Mr. H. P. Davidson of that company to have in readiness $50,000. As a result, between March the 2nd and March the 23rd, J. P. Morgan & Company had several packages of money in readiness to be used by Colonel Lindbergh. Furthermore, the amount of the ransom which was recovered by the Police was later directly turned over to Lindbergh so it appears he was responsible, in one way or another, for this $50,000. In the absence of your source I can neither compliment nor formulate a rebuttal to it so this is where I'm at as of right now.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Dec 3, 2014 21:21:11 GMT -5
Mine's from Gardner - "Case..." pp. 46-7,77.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 13:41:13 GMT -5
I read pages 46 and 47 in Gardner's book. Are you thinking that mob money was used to pay the ransom???
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 13:54:08 GMT -5
Right Amy. And that's just one impossible to believe if you truly look at it thing about TLC. The worst is no fingerprints in the nursery. If you think about it the only way that could have happened is by CAL wiping it or having someone else wipe it.I don't know how long that would take but it might even throw the timeline of everything off to do it thoroughly. Instead everybody just says, "oh, no fingerprints" and moves on. Even the Hopewell policemen should have called him on that one but as far as I know he was never even asked about it. I hear you about the lack of fingerprints. Lack of fingerprints by a kidnapper can be explained with the use of gloves. It is the lack of prints from Anne and Betty that I find most disturbing. They both admit to handling the shutters and windows. Betty left the French window open a bit for air circulation and had locked the shutters on that window. When Betty came into the nursery at 10 pm she went to the French window and closed it, she turned on the small heater in the nursery and then walked over to the crib and placed her hands on the crib railing. She should have left a print somewhere after touching these areas, yet no prints were found. Do you know if the Lindbergh servants had their fingerprints taken by the police?
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Post by Michael on Dec 4, 2014 17:37:19 GMT -5
Mine's from Gardner - "Case..." pp. 46-7,77. Okay I see now why you hold this position, but I disagree with it and here's why.... Bartow was a link in a chain of events that did not start with him. Like I said below it starts with Lindbergh making that called to H. P. Davidson of J. P. Morgan. From that point on J. P. Morgan was completely in charge of the money. Between that date and sometime during March 23rd, several different packages had been assembled and dissembled for various reasons. The 1st batch, for example, was withdrawn from the 1st National Bank then redeposited the very next day. When the money wasn't being redeposited, it was "lodged" at the Corn Exchange Bank and Trust (Fordham Branch). By the 22nd of March, the money was placed into the General Manager's safe at J. P. Morgan at the Wall Street office, however, by 23rd it was back at the Corn Exchange Bank and Trust. It's back and forth constantly until Manville and Cragin went to the bank then brought it to Bartow's house who then entrusted his Butler, Thomas Train, to place the packages into his closet. This was done, presumably, so the money would be "readily available" instead of in locked up in a safe during non-business hours. Bartow was the last official of that Company to possess or have anything to do with this money until it was turned over to Lindbergh, Breckenridge, and Reich on April 2nd.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 22:09:30 GMT -5
So, Michael, since Lindbergh decides he is going to pay the ransom with his own money through a go-between chosen by the kidnappers, why does the U.S. Treasury Department stay involved after Lindbergh says he will not seek Capone's release from jail to help recover his son? Kidnapping was not a Federal offense so why are they still in the picture when it is time to pay the ransom on April 2? I am just trying to understand the basis for their presence in this aspect of the crime. It was Irey who wanted gold certificates used and he also insisted on the serial numbers being recorded(both great ideas). If Lindbergh felt no need to have the BOI assist with this case, why did Lindbergh feel he needed the Treasury Dept. to assist him with a ransom payment to a kidnapper in the Bronx?
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 5, 2014 4:31:27 GMT -5
First, I think Amy's absolutely right: Condon's description of his conversation with CJ, in which Condon supposedly talked CJ out of the extra $20K, makes no sense. It makes perfect sense that Condon would've presented things that way, being the excruciatingly self-aggrandizing boy scout and BS artist that he was, but what I think actually happened was that Condon had been in touch with the kidnappers earlier than he claimed and was approached by them (he basically admitted as much to a reporter, as described on p. 100 of Gardner's book). I think the kidnappers had chosen Condon as a go-between and offered him $20K for his services, subsequently disguising that amount as jacked-up ransom in the second note sent to Hopewell. Condon and the kidnappers agreed that their first "official" contact would be via an open letter that Condon would place in The Bronx Home News, which he told the kidnappers to keep an eye out for and respond to. Later, once Condon realized that CAL Jr. was dead, his $20K fee became blood money which, as such, he obviously couldn't accept. So he had no choice but to forfeit it, which he did under the heroically altruistic guise of saving his hero money. Second, the fingerprints: If Betty Gow went into the nursery and touched things after CAL Jr. had been taken--in that case, I would think her prints would've been found in that room. But as has been said many times, they weren't; none were. But based on the fact that CAL Jr.'s prints were found in the nursery months later, it would seem there were indeed fingerprints in that room and were only missing from certain key spots. This would indicate that an intentional wipedown occurred sometime between the time that Betty went into the nursery to check on CAL Jr. and when the room was first dusted. I would think this could only have been done by someone inside the house. But why would an insider have done this? To answer that, I think we have to look at the spots that were dusted and found to have no prints. My understanding is that these areas were places that an intruder entering and exiting by a window would've had to touch. So, if that much is true, it looks to me like somebody on the inside (obviously not having access to someone else's prints and of course not wanting to leave their own) had no choice but to leave a trail of absent prints by wiping down certain areas in the nursery--that is, creating a breadcrumb trail to telegraph a certain scenario, one of a window entry-exit which, by its very nature, would only have been made by an outside intruder who, as such, would've had no inside help to let them in through, say, the front door or something. Just how it looks to me...
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Post by Michael on Dec 5, 2014 9:03:50 GMT -5
Bartow was the last official of that Company to possess or have anything to do with this money until it was turned over to Lindbergh, Breckenridge, and Reich on April 2nd. I want to correct/amend this statement above. For all intent and purposes it is correct but not technically so I want to make sure I am not misleading anyone. I had forgotten that Bartow called for some men from J. P. Morgan to come over to his home that night prior to handing over the money. They opened and re-wrapped the money so they would be the last to have touched it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 9:22:35 GMT -5
The southeast window of the nursery was the focal point from the get-go as the entry/exit point for this crime. The ladder rail indentations were found in the mud under this window and there were scrap marks on the whitewashed stone from the ladder. This window had the faulty shutter. This is THE window. Everything about this window area was dusted for prints inside and out. Nothing found. Kelly also did the southerly facing French window, the one Betty says she closed at 10 pm. This window was not considered the kidnap window but no prints are found there either...not even Betty's whose fingerprints you would have expected to find there since she was the last person to handle that window as far as we know. Why would a kidnapper who used the southeastern window to enter and exit bother to wipe down the French window area? Why would a kidnapper bother to wipe down any area if he had gloves on? And he must have had gloves on since this is the reasoning of the police when they didn't turn up an fingerprints on the kidnap ladder either.
Kelly dusted the crib rail also, where Betty said she placed her hands when she was went to the crib and realized she did not hear the baby breathing. Again, no prints, finger or palm were lifted from that crib rail. I find myself wondering if she really closed that French window and touched that crib rail at 10 pm likes she claims to have done.
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Post by Michael on Dec 5, 2014 9:55:33 GMT -5
So, Michael, since Lindbergh decides he is going to pay the ransom with his own money through a go-between chosen by the kidnappers, why does the U.S. Treasury Department stay involved after Lindbergh says he will not seek Capone's release from jail to help recover his son? Kidnapping was not a Federal offense so why are they still in the picture when it is time to pay the ransom on April 2? I am just trying to understand the basis for their presence in this aspect of the crime. It was Irey who wanted gold certificates used and he also insisted on the serial numbers being recorded(both great ideas). If Lindbergh felt no need to have the BOI assist with this case, why did Lindbergh feel he needed the Treasury Dept. to assist him with a ransom payment to a kidnapper in the Bronx? I'll try to give you my perspective as best I can... The FBI wasn't "unwelcome" as long as they fell in line with NJ. Lindbergh ran NJ so if the FBI wasn't reporting to Schwarzkopf then Lindbergh was blind. This was the cause of the first "falling out" between NJ and the FBI. Schwarzkopf was all for this because of his personal desire to solve the case for his organization. So his motivation was jealousy while Lindbergh's was both control and knowledge. The Treasury Department was originally brought in at the request of Gov. Moore on March 7th, AND due to Lindbergh's repeated requests to the Dept. of Treasury to have Capone assist them in recovering the child, Irey went to Hopewell on March 8th where he told them no consideration should be given to Capone. He goes to Hopewell again on March 18th with Wilson and Madden for the exact same reason. I believe it was at that point that despite offering their assistance they were told to stay out of the investigation but asked that someone from the Agency be available to them in NY if they had any questions of them or suggestions they might be able to assist with. Once the Ransom Serials were to be recorded, that brought them permanently into the case. They had to instruct J. P. Morgan employees how to properly record those numbers. They were the Authority over the Federal Reserve Banks. Searching for those bills required Lindbergh to request this search directly to them which he obviously had to do at that point (after the ultimatum had been given about them being recorded). This act caused the books to be produced and dispersed to the Banks. Once the child was found dead President Hoover opened the flood gates of the Federal Authorities to assist which led to that conference where Schwarzkopf went over the case with their representatives. From that point on both Madden and Wilson were the Treasury Agents working directly with the NJSP. Wilson and Keaton were attached at the hip. I can say with certainty that whatever was going on that Wilson knew about - Keaton knew about it too. If Keaton knew then Schwarzkopf knew. And if Schwarzkopf knew then Lindbergh knew. The FBI was much different in that regard which led to the issues as I've stated above. In fact, Wilson was more loyal to Schwarzkopf then he was to Hoover refusing to turn over investigations to the FBI as requested.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 5, 2014 15:27:25 GMT -5
Amy, the questions you raise are all good ones: Why would a kidnapper take the time to wipe the room down, especially if he was wearing gloves (a safe assumption) and would've left no prints in the first place? I think the answer is that the kidnapper--that is to say, an outsider--didn't. That leaves an insider, who, as an addition to the other elements you mention (the ladder, the footing and scrape marks, the footprint trails and chisel found outside, as well as the note placed on the sill)--on top of all this, the room was wiped down to give the impression of the window as the entry-exit. This insider wouldn't have wanted leave identifiable prints, so the only option was to leave a trail of absent ones by wiping down key areas of the room, around the windows.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 20:29:58 GMT -5
I totally get what you are saying here.
Gov. Moore? If this appears in a book I have, I must have blown by it when reading. Why did Gov. Moore feel the Treasury Dept. was needed? Did he believe that the mob was responsible for the kidnapping?
Ok, so the treasury dept was in the background ready to assist until the serial number issue came up. Thanks for making the reason for their active involvement easier for me to understand!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 20:43:49 GMT -5
Was Irey or another Treasury official present when the ransom money was wrapped, after the serial numbers were recorded and the money was ready. Did they witness all those gold certificates being wrapped? When you say wrapped, do you mean those bands that wrap around the middle of a package of bills?
Would you know the reason why Bartow had men from J.P. Morgan come to his home the night before(which would be April 1)and open and re-wrap that ransom money? I find that troubling.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Dec 5, 2014 21:07:48 GMT -5
Seems Bartow's home has a lot to do with TLC.
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Post by Michael on Dec 5, 2014 22:55:03 GMT -5
Gov. Moore? If this appears in a book I have, I must have blown by it when reading. Why did Gov. Moore feel the Treasury Dept. was needed? Did he believe that the mob was responsible for the kidnapping? This comes from both Irey and Wilson. That on March 7th Governor Moore requested the assistance of the Treasury Department. It was around this time that he also requested the assistance of the FBI, and it was either on the 7th or 9th that he requested Parker's help too.
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Post by Michael on Dec 5, 2014 23:03:48 GMT -5
Was Irey or another Treasury official present when the ransom money was wrapped, after the serial numbers were recorded and the money was ready. Did they witness all those gold certificates being wrapped? When you say wrapped, do you mean those bands that wrap around the middle of a package of bills? I do not think they were present when this occurred. From my understanding of the reports, they instructed Stewart Cragin of J. P. Morgan how they wanted this done, and that he supervised the serials being recorded. Would you know the reason why Bartow had men from J.P. Morgan come to his home the night before(which would be April 1)and open and re-wrap that ransom money? I find that troubling. According to the source material, it was to count the money and re-verify that it was the same as the recorded serial numbered bills. I find it amazing that they are trusting Bartow with this cash and he, in turn, is giving it to his Butler to hide in the closet. From Peacock's trial preparation notes:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 14:42:12 GMT -5
Forgive me Michael if I don't believe that.
I am still shaking my head over this! They are supposedly recounting the ransom money for like the umpteenth time, re-verifying serial numbers and then the money ends up being placed in the Butler's closet!!! This case seems to be the poster child for trusting hired servants! Surely, Mr Bartow had a safe in his house that he could have locked that money into.
Thanks for posting the pre-trial statement for Mr. Bowen. I shall check out the court testimony given by him and the other gentlemen involved in this aspect of the case.
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Post by romeo12 on Dec 6, 2014 15:19:15 GMT -5
is this really important? I don't think so
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 6, 2014 18:02:31 GMT -5
To amy35, Michael, and others:
Looking at these goings-on from a worst-case scenario point of view, what kind of sinister plot do you think might have been going down among the J.P. Morgan officials and/or the Treasury agents in the preparation of the ransom money? Do you think that theft might have occurred during this process?
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