|
|
Post by Michael on May 12, 2012 21:03:53 GMT -5
Post what you have if you can find them. How do you have your files organized? Are they in boxes or file cabinets?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 13, 2012 9:04:32 GMT -5
A few thoughts regarding the the footprints. First, go back to the aerial photo I posted and look at the terrain. What you will see is typical NJ farm land, fields with access lanes, tree lines, and stone borders. That makes detecting movement extremely difficult. Second, since nothing on Bush is official or in his own hand, it's very difficult to tell exactly what he found. It is possible that he was describing the same prints that DeGaetano was. They do generally go off towards Featherbed ( look at the aerial) before heading toward the chicken coop. In any case, there just isn't enough from Bush that can be used.
Michael, what is the source of that chronology you posted?
|
|
|
|
Post by wolf2 on May 13, 2012 9:10:54 GMT -5
okay mike i will. no mike im not to organized. but i will post the fbis bush comments
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael on May 13, 2012 9:27:06 GMT -5
Possible, but I don't think so. Bush did do a lot of talking to the Reporters. Problem is some quote him differently when it comes to how many people he tracked. One thing though - they all say he tracked them to Featherbed Lane. That's important to me because Bush knew the area better then everyone there. We know a car was there because Conover saw it.
I am still working on Bush though so nothing is written in stone yet.
I also want to let everyone know about a little secret.... "Some" were referring to the Maintenance Road as "Featherbed Road" so we hear "Featherbed" and we think its the same road they're talking about.
But it ain't.
Well it came from the Archives. I believe it was in the Schwarzkopf File within the Hoffman Collection but I could be wrong about that. There are many different versions of these. I believe Ho-age did one for the Governor too but I haven't located it in my Files yet.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 14, 2012 9:17:56 GMT -5
Well ok, but for all practical purposes any reference to what Bush found have to be taken with a great deal of skepticism.
Leaving aside the variation in the eventual path of the footprints, let's strike at the most important point, why are these people walking around in stockings? I can't believe it had anything to do with leaving identifiable shoe prints because the distance is too great and there were cheap rubber overshoes available at the time. If one is wearing a common shoe then the most revealing evidence left would be size and that can be determined if you leave prints with stocking feet. So, eliminating identification what is left? All I can think of is sound. But why would this be a concern if you are entering the room via a ladder? To be that concerned with silencing your footsteps seems to me to be indicative of someone who had to move through and about the house.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael on May 14, 2012 9:53:16 GMT -5
I think that whatever we have must be looked at closely. Like you said, we don't have an official statement to point to when it comes to Bush.
I have considered though, that Bush may have followed a different set of prints. Perhaps the Party divided at some point or perhaps they are independant of each other.
Okay. But perhaps you are forgetting another possibility.... Which would be the perception that this "outsider" was concerned about sound. The more you think about the totality of the circumstances the less it makes sense unless part of the reason is to direct your attention to the fact it was indeed an outsider.
One who isn't at all concerned about time. Has the timing of everyone and everything down. Knows all about the schedules. Knows the entire layout of the house to the point its navagated both inside and out - in the windy, cold and very dark. He seems to be doing superhuman things and carrying a limitless amount of items, some which serve no purpose other then to be pointed to as "evidence" that an outsider did this thing. Walks through the muddy yard in stocking feet, drops the ladder that he was, for some unknown reason carrying there, then slips on his boots that I suppose he was also carrying, oh, and the whole time he's got the child as well.
It never ends and the more you think about it - it just gets worse.
He's worried about sound but not about knocking anything over in that Nursery that he cannot see and should not be aware - that all block his path.
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Post by mairi on May 14, 2012 10:23:42 GMT -5
Without using time to look it up--does anyone remember when the man from the nearby mental institution was there at the house looking through the window? I have some impression it was the weekend just prior to the crime. ... (sock feet?)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 11:28:47 GMT -5
Michael, when you say "Maintenance Road" do you mean the "Access Road" on Kevkon's aerial photo or are you talking about the tree lined road to the right of the access road. I think I have seen this tree lined road labeled Featherbed Road which is a separate road from Featherbed Lane. Would you know if there were indeed two roads near each other that used the Featherbed name?
No matter how Bush is viewed, the prints he tracked leading to Featherbed Lane have stood as the accepted route of escape by the kidnappers. I never encountered a different route in the limited (but ever expanding) reading I have done on this case. I really can't see discounting these findings just because of who found them.
I can agree with an outsider using the socks to absorb walking sounds when moving about the nursery. If the socks were over shoes then perhaps that indicates an "inside" person who is involved and they would need to have "clean" shoes upon entering the house. I also agree with Michael that the use of the socks would create a perception that only outsiders were involved in the kidnapping. They would have used them to muffle footsounds in the house and also to not leave clear shoe impressions in the mud.
What I am beginning to realize is that the more you look at this crime scene in detail the harder it is to make the execution of this kidnapping work the way it has historically been presented. Without an insider doing something to assist with the removal of the child from that room, I really have trouble seeing this happening at all. I am, however, trying to keep an open mind about it. I don't feel I know enough at this point to say it was definitely one way or the other.
I was looking at the floor plans of the house the other day. I was wondering where the basement is located under the house and where you could access it from inside the house. Did the basement also have an exit point to the outside of the house?
|
|
|
|
Post by lightningjew on May 14, 2012 11:37:30 GMT -5
Michael, in your above post you make a lot of good points which indicate an inside job of some sort. Now, maybe I'm mistaken or have misunderstood, but I seem to remember you saying elsewhere that, at the same time, you don't believe the servants or the Lindberghs were in on this. I realize it doesn't have to be an either/or scenario--that it was either the Lindberghs/servants or a complete stranger--but how do you think the information about the house (interior and exterior) was obtained and transmitted? I also remember you saying that someone hired somebody to carry out the crime, and I suppose a floorplan could've been gotten from somewhere easily enough, but movements of household occupants, toys in the nursery--who could've anticipated and navigated these obstacles if not someone who saw these things every day? Again, I realize that none of this proves someone inside had to have conscious knowledge of the crime, but, if someone was hired to carry this out as you've suggested, how do you think they would've gotten this kind of information? For awhile I thought it could've been that Whateley conducted tours, but that's been disproved.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 12:25:37 GMT -5
Hi Mairi. Your post is very interesting. Would this person have come from the Skillman Home?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 14, 2012 12:54:39 GMT -5
Amy, the basement is reached by stairs under the servant stairs by the Kitchen. I have not seen an outside entry to it.
Personally, I find it pretty hard to believe that someone would shed their shoes and walk around stocking foot at that time of the year in an effort to make the police believe that they were in the house. This is just too much like re-inventing the wheel, IMHO. Anyone that conscious of details who was fabricating a kidnap from the outside would certainly not have missed the boat by such a distance that the whole ladder scenario presents.
You know, Joe commented on his surprise at seeing the access road after researching this case for so long. I find myself in the same situation regarding the footprints. For years I heard that they were indistinct and that the kidnappers were wearing fabric over their shoes. Then I come upon the newsreel and their in front of me is an incredibly formed print. That's not a print of a shoe with fabric, it's a print of a foot with socks. Now if you want to take this evidence and explain it away, that's fine. But I think it is extremely relevant to the actions of the kidnapper(s). So much so that I am now almost certain that the kidnappers entered the house long before most think and that the ladder was used to receive the child and place the note.
BTW, someone mentioned a new book available on Kindle. I just thought I would mention that you do not need a Kindle device, you can simply download (free) the Kindle app.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 14:33:09 GMT -5
Kevkon, thanks for sharing what you know about the basement. One of the reasons I asked was because, like you say in your post, someone must of gotten into the house to assist with the removal of the child passing him to the kidnapper on the ladder and then placed the note and closed the window. I wondered if they could have used the basement as an entry point but with no way to enter the basement from the outside that kills that idea.
Believe me, that clip of the footprint wearing only a sock really set me back in my seat. I don't think it should be dismissed anymore than what Bush tracked at the scene. The problem for me is being able to reconcile together all the various footprint evidence found at the scene.
|
|
|
|
Post by kjones on May 14, 2012 14:33:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by lightningjew on May 14, 2012 15:13:04 GMT -5
I think you're right. Given the angle to the house, the trees and boulders, if you compare the aerial photo to the apimage, it looks like he's standing right at the mouth of that access drive.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 15:18:17 GMT -5
This is a great post kjones. That access road looks better and better all the time. If only Teddy could have talked! He would have solved the crime of the century!
|
|
|
|
Post by lightningjew on May 14, 2012 15:37:24 GMT -5
Michael, had another question, this one about footprints: Has it been a misconception all this time that the footprints at the scene were stocking-over-shoe prints, as opposed to just stocking prints? I mean, in that newsreel we see a stocking footprint, but were their others like that, or were there a combination of the two kinds of prints...?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 14, 2012 15:53:46 GMT -5
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Post by mairi on May 14, 2012 16:13:10 GMT -5
Hi Amy35, Skillman House sounds familiar. I think that's it. I, too, marvel at all these foot prints adding up. I find myself more scrambled about it now  Wouldn't it be nice if we could draw pictures onto the forum? |
|
|
|
Post by bookrefuge on May 14, 2012 17:56:07 GMT -5
Great discussion here. Based on the aerial photograph alone, if I was the kidnapper, I think I definitely would use the access road. It doesn’t sound like it was any tougher to drive on than Featherbed Lane, and it would mean less travel time between the house and the getaway vehicle. Michael, you have said that the “Maintenance Road” was sometimes misidentified as “Featherbed Road.” This could be a very crucial mistake causing misinterpretation of movements in the crime. However, if you read Gardner (pp. 30-31), it refers very distinctly to Featherbed Lane as the place where car tracks were found, as well as the place where the footprints ended that Oscar Bush was tracking. Michael, from everything you know, do you have an opinion regarding the use of the access roads versus Featherbed Lane?
I agree that it would be very helpful to have a diagram showing the various footprints, by type and direction, even allowing for some errors in the original reports.
It is very interesting about the stocking feet. This seems to be corroborated by Bush’s ability to identify an overlapping toe. As Kevin has pointed out, nobody makes a getaway in stocking feet. The only reasonable explanation is to blunt sounds while walking in the nursery. As I recall, the stocking feet stop at the same place where the ladder was discarded. So I’m thinking, maybe, at the window the guy in the stocking feet hands the kid to his partner on the ladder. The partner descends the ladder and races off with the kid. After the guy in the stocking feet makes it down the ladder, maybe he’s too frantic to put on his shoes yet, but after hauling that ladder 75 feet, he say’s “Enough’s enough,” drops the ladder and put on his shoes.
Then again, if he’s that frantic, why try and take the ladder at all? Michael, I believe that on another thread you posted a comment by Lieutenant Keaten that this was the only kidnapping case he knew of where kidnappers tried to remove a ladder. Normally, once they had their quarry, the means of entry was strictly disposable. Why would anyone slow themselves down by hauling that ladder away after getting the kid? In fact, having that ladder in your car on your GETAWAY TRIP makes no sense—it would be like having big sign on your car for the police that said “ARREST ME!” No one’s going to be worried about an Arthur Koehler at this point. So why bother moving the ladder at all—even 75 feet?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 15, 2012 9:53:01 GMT -5
BR, I have always felt that the removal of the ladder was due to the kidnappers lack of knowledge regarding the exact routine for the child. I believe they simply assumed ( as many would) that once the child was put to bed he would not be disturbed until the morning. Under that assumption I think it would be reasonable to remove that ladder less it blow over or be spotted from the Library. This would, in the kidnappers mind, give them quite a few hours to get away clean. Certainly with more than one involved the removal of the ladder would be no chore. Regarding the footprints, I have some questions/ observations which may or may not seem trivial and yet could have major implications. - One, where were the shoes removed and what was done with them? Since they were not found, they must have been taken but the footprints don't show this. It seems that the explanation must be that one of the kidnappers held on to them.
- The strange overlapping toe print, did Hauptmann have this condition? If he didn't then there is absolute proof that he was either not there or not the one whose prints were found.
- Was the plan altered upon seeing the closed and presumably locked shutters?
|
|
|
|
Post by bookrefuge on May 15, 2012 15:10:07 GMT -5
Kevkon, the reasons you give seem to be a pretty reasonable solution to the riddle of why they moved the ladder 75 feet. Trying to make a complete getaway with the ladder just makes no sense. But with that gale blowing that night, leaving the ladder leaning against the house would have definitely risked its eventually being blown over, attracting attention. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I believe the kidnapping could not have been carried out alone. If a lone kidnapper exited the ladder and went in through the nursery window, what if the gale blew the ladder out of place before he returned with the kid? He’d be trapped inside the house. Beyond this is the pure safety consideration—going up a pretty flimsy ladder with a gale blowing, you’ve got to have somebody holding it securely for your own safety--even allowing for that fit of the ladder into the shutter louvers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael on May 15, 2012 18:50:23 GMT -5
I will have to look this up. I believe this happened at the Mount Rose place but the details evade me.
When I say "Maintenance Roads" I mean the "Access" Roads, "Construction" Roads, etc. As you can see from Kevin's map, there are more then one that spider web out. I've seen the one closest to the house which intersects the driveway nearest the house then extends towards the south referred to as "Featherbed Road." It either ends or bends into another section of Maintenance Road and never does intersect with Featherbed Lane to the South which runs east to west and was an actual Road (although it was only rough country road). This was something I was going to introduce in the book but I felt like I was perpetrating a fraud by not bringing this out.
You may have misunderstood. I think I was saying that everyone should be considered a suspect when it came to the "insider". Sometimes I am not clear... I may have said something like..."I am not saying Whateley is my suspect"... That just means I am not proclaiming it publicly. It doesn't mean he's not. I am not saying he is and I am not saying he isn't. See what I mean? What I have committed myself to is that I absolutely believe there was inside help.
I have to admit this footage set me back a little. Or possibly forward. I had the impression as you did, that Bush must have been mistaken. Then one reads about his impression of the toes and I thought he was sensationalizing. Then comes this footage. I don't know enough about it, but it certainly opened my mind back up to Bush for the reasons Amy alludes to. So its off to the Archives for me in order to find more pictures to see whats what. Obviously if this footage is reliable then it is prints without shoes. But even if it is reliable I will need to know where those prints are in order to cross them with what is known in order to make sense of all of it.
I don't remember saying that. If I did then I have forgotten I did along with the source. If you find the post please direct it to me - that could jogg my memory.
Regardless it has never made any sense to me unless you are trying to stage something for the Police. Otherwise its left behind and time isn't wasted on it. Anytime you see "overkill" there's a reason for it. There's proof no one was in a hurry but there's evidence being left behind that attempts to impress otherwise.
I think we are given the option because it isn't quite defined within the Reports. Additionally, I believe there were different types of prints. The most famous print which we always see looks more like a shoe/boot print. Again, I am not saying the footage isn't legit (because I think it is) but I want to try to verify specifics before I hang my hat on it. I do believe it was shot on location at the right time, but I need to know exactly where.
|
|
|
|
Post by wolf2 on May 15, 2012 19:55:27 GMT -5
mike, according to the fbi files they say lindbergh got bush. is this true?
|
|
|
|
Post by kjones on May 15, 2012 21:18:47 GMT -5
I must admit the newsreel did stun me too. This footprint was what I have been reading about for all these years, and here it is. I know this sounds silly, but one of my first thoughts was, " what a great arch". I am as flat footed as they come and most of us who are, will leave a distinct print when walking. And that print is nothing like it. Or, could this be the print that is mentioned in the FBI Files on pg 147. as the one made by the bowlegged man?
|
|
|
|
Post by lightningjew on May 15, 2012 23:00:48 GMT -5
Michael, when you say you are committed to the notion that there was inside help, do you believe it was intentional or unwitting on the part of this inside helper? Also, in the new edition of Case That Never Dies, Fisher has apparently added an afterward with a theory on what he thinks happened. I've been looking for it on Amazon, but does anyone know when this new edition will be coming out?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 16, 2012 7:23:54 GMT -5
Part of the confusion regarding the naming of these "roads" may have arisen because Featherbed Lane or Road was an old slang term for a really rough country road.
What are some thoughts on when and where the kidnapper removed his shoes?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 12:13:20 GMT -5
Michael, thank you for offerring the road information that you were saving for your book. You have brought more clarity to the road situation for me. Where all the prints lead in relation to the roads is, I feel, important to understanding this crime scene. I hope the archives will shed additional information on the prints left at the scene. If you are able to share any findings that will be really great.
Kevkon. I am happy to read that you are going to Highfields tomorrow. I would like to take you up on your offer and ask you, if you possible can, to look around to see if there is an outside access to the basement. I definitely would not consider the coal shute an option! Thank you in advance for your assistance.
I was thinking about the removal of shoes by the kidnapper. My guess is that it was done at the scene. The FBI report that kjones mentions states that the stocking foot prints started about one hundred feet away from the house and proceed to the nursery window (where he places the ladder??) and then go back and across a grass field to the edge of Featherbed Lane. Perhaps he removed them to climb up the ladder and then retrieved them when he put the ladder down. Why he chose not to put them back on? Guess he didn't want to mess up the inside of his shoes. The FBI reports that the socks were deeply ribbed stockings of the golf hose type. Did Hauptmann play golf? The report also mentions this person may be bowlegged, short in stature, and possibly lame. I never realized that you could tell so much from footprints!! And this is only one of the sets of footprints tracked at the scene.
I really think there were at least two people (possibly three) at the scene. Perhaps they did split up when leaving the scene and go to different cars; one on Featherbed Lane and one near the entrace to the Lindbergh drive. Maybe the ladder came from the car near the drive and the kidnapper doing the removal of the child came from Featherbed Lane. These are just guesses. I am trying to cover all the prints and trails found at the scene.
Could the closed and locked shutters have changed how they carried out the plan? With no inside assistance I don't know how they would have done it. They would have had to come prepared to get the shutters and windows opened. If they didn't they would have needed someone to get into the house and assist from inside. Or they needed to have the help of someone who lived or worked there. How else do you manage accomplishing this kidnapping?
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael on May 16, 2012 16:08:35 GMT -5
Just to beat a dead horse for one last time..... There is no dispute that prints were tracked to the ladder. The is no dispute that prints lead away from that ladder in a southeastern direction. The confusion seems to exist when DeGaetano tracks prints to the chicken coup. Kevin is right this must be east along the Construction Road. I have other reports that seem to back this up - to include DeGaetano's Reports themselves. The problem is that Bush does say he tracks prints to Featherbed Lane - which is due south. This difference we must reconcile in some way. Kevin seems to doubt Bush, and that is one way to do as I suggest. Also, I have seen the Police refer to "Featherbed" when in fact they were referring to the Construction Road and not Featherbed Lane. And so, in the event you read something which says "Featherbed" we should all be mindful it could be one of two different places. We are going to have to look for context to see which it is or, in the alternative, leave it open ended until such time that we do. As Anne was playfully singing the popular song "You Must Have Been a Beautiful Baby," Keyhoe looked up and saw a disheveled, wild-eyed man peering in at them through the living room window. As soon as the Peeping Tom realized he had been seen, he turned and fled into the night. [Loss of Eden - Milton, p.204] Not really but technically maybe. Lindbergh and the (4) Troopers with him were going door to door in search of clues. They came to where Wycoff was sleeping. Once Wyckoff was awake he aided their search. It's not like they went looking for Wykoff. See what I mean? Eventually, Wyckoff, who was Bush's Uncle, went to Oscar and told him what had happened. Afterwards he explained that Bush was wanted as a guide to assist in the search of the vicinity. According to Bush, both men then proceeded to Highfields together. There's nothing in his interview with Bornmann that says anyone other then Wykoff came to get him. My best guess is that it was at Wykoff's suggestion and the idea was approved by Lindbergh. |
|
|
|
Post by Michael on May 17, 2012 6:01:40 GMT -5
It's due out shortly. I don't know exactly when, but he's expecting copies of it very soon.
Speaking of books, there is another one coming out that I know everyone here will enjoy. I think I mentioned it before but in case my mind is playing tricks on me I will risk repeating myself....
Mark Falzini and Jim Davidson have teamed up to create a "picture" book on the Case. This will put faces and places to all the names with many pictures none of us have ever seen before. This one is going to the publisher in mid-June.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 17, 2012 6:54:38 GMT -5
Robert Zorn's book will also be available in June.
Amy, no problem I will look for the Basement entry. Just remember that the Highfields of today is not exactly the Highfields of 1932.
Michael, just to be clear. It's not that I don't trust what Bush found, in fact he is someone I would favor. It's just the reports of his tracking that seem sketchy to me. I have the feeling that the NJSP didn't care for a local to show them the way. If the NJSP had sent DeGaetano or another trooper along with Bush and recorded everything in detail, then we could make some concrete assessment of his tracking. Once again I am almost in total disbelief that so much important evidence was not captured.
I still believe the that the approach could have been from Featherbed La and the retreat was via the access road to the chicken coop.
|
|
Wouldn't it be nice if we could draw pictures onto the forum?
May 24, 2022 13:03:09 GMT -5
May 24, 2022 13:03:09 GMT -5