Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 15, 2012 9:33:21 GMT -5
That's a nice partial-name-drop there, jd and you got a great return on the kind of one-dimensional accounting I might expect to see on the hoaxie site. Now, without defending or denigrating Lindbergh, what exactly was the context of the very famous and highly respected award-winning actor's exchange with Lindbergh? You have my curiosity.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 15, 2012 10:01:54 GMT -5
Hey Joe - have you ever heard anything nice said about Lindgergh?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 15, 2012 10:11:16 GMT -5
I try not to rule anything out. I just don't like to draw conclusions without real evidence. It's like the various posts on Lindbergh including the latest. It means nothing, absolutely nothing to me if he was the world's biggest SOB or a really great man. It's all meaningless to me. I wouldn't convict Hauptmann on that basis and I'm sure as hell wouldn't convict anyone else by character. Now if Lindbergh had been caught trying to kill one of his many children, that's a whole another story.
Real evidence is real evidence. It's not here say, innuendo, or assumption.
I could apply the very same reasoning to the work Hauptmann performed, some of which was very good and some not so good. But I won't. People do things for many reasons, many of which we can never understand. Attempting to find a logical explanation behind each and every action of someone, particularly a person who may be suffering from some psychological problem, is futile.
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Post by jdanniel on Aug 15, 2012 10:15:22 GMT -5
I don't know the exact exchange or discussion. It's purely, solely, and nothing more than hearsay and anecdotal evidence. I readily admit that.
And I heard the story probably 40 years ago. Why it's such a vivid memory, I don't know. But I do believe that it subconsciously kick-started my interest in the LKC. A few years after that tale was told, the TV movie with Anthony Hopkins as Hauptmann and Cliff DeYoung as Lindbergh was aired.
I don't know if you've seen that TV movie, but I still remember one scene quite vividly. Charles Lindbergh was being debriefed on the investigation. He was in his living room, I believe, and he was eating something out of a bowl with a spoon. Maybe oatmeal, maybe soup, I don't know. I recall he was taking the information in very calmly, and even stoically. I was 16 when the movie was shown, and I distinctly recall saying to myself, "That's how you react when your son is kidnapped?"
That was about 15 years before I read my first LKC book, and had no idea Lindbergh was that type of fellow. Maybe he wasn't. Hell, I wasn't in the house. Maybe he was emotionally drained, maybe he was a wreck, maybe he hadn't eaten in days, maybe all he could stomach was a little mushy oatmeal, and maybe he barely had the strength or energy to do that. It was only a movie.
As for the source of the anecdote: I'm just having a little bit of fun keeping the name away. The actor I referred to lived in New Jersey for a while, in an area that wasn't all that populated like it is now. Everyone knew each other and was friendly. My grandfather founded the town's fire and rescue squad, so I'm guessing it was natural for the actor and my grandfather to become acquainted.
Just because the guy didn't like Lindbergh doesn't mean Lindy was involved in a hoax. But the reason I bring up this anecdote is because the actor had an immaculate reputation and consummate integrity. He was the type of person where if he didn't like you, something was wrong with YOU.
The actor was nominated for an Oscar, won an Honorary Oscar, was nominated for a few Emmy awards, won the Screen Actors' Guild Life Achievement Award, and was in a hugely popular comedy in the early 1980's that starred two Saturday Night Live performers.
You figure out who he is. Hell, if you can figure out who kidnapped the Lindbergh baby, you can do that!
Jd
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Post by lightningjew on Aug 15, 2012 10:44:38 GMT -5
Ralph Bellamy?
Also, I have a copy of that Hopkins TV film. Cheesy, but good cheesy, and Hopkins is excellent as Hauptmann (won an Emmy, I believe). That film seems to suggest that Hauptmann did it alone (Hopkins plays Cemetery John before the character of Hauptmann is even introduced into the story). But Cliff de Young, though a dead ringer, is pretty stiff as Lindbergh. Then again, I get the sense that he was directed that way, as the character he was playing was pretty stiff and unemotional. And if you're interested (and haven't already seen it), there's also another TV film--an HBO movie made about 20 years later--called Crime of the Century, with Stephen Rea (The Crying Game) and Isabella Rossellini as the Hauptmanns. That's based on the Kennedy book I think, and presents Hauptmann as being completely framed. Ridiculously cherry-picked as history, but a well-made film nonetheless. And though I haven't seen it, apparently Eastwood's new biopic of J. Edgar Hoover focuses in part on the LKC. But there needs to be a big budget film solely about this, though. Something with a sad, eerie, Road to Perdition quality about it...
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 15, 2012 11:16:19 GMT -5
Bellamy was probably the best and most unrecognized actor during his sixty plus year career. I don't remember the name of the movie, but it was the spookiest I ever saw and he was in a basement and baddies are trying to get in, yada yada. He was in "Pretty Woman," ya, always liked him. Point though is, has anyone ever heard anything nice said about Charles Lindbergh? I remember when he died and thinking in spite of his fame, the guy was really a hermet.
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Post by Michael on Aug 15, 2012 16:17:18 GMT -5
How about if he was caught hiding his son, twice, then pretending he was kidnapped? (And that's what you know about). That's gotta be worth something right? Or should we brush it off as something normal any Parent would do?
Something provable like Charles's name was Charles?
Are you talking about Hauptmann or Lindbergh? And when you say "may" be suffering.... are you considering this because it's a fact - or a possibility?
I am not trying to be an a-hole and I am all for considering it. But I think everything needs to be considered because if we don't then there's a chance we'll stop short.
For example, if I believe I can find an explanation to the pattern I won't dismiss it because of the possibility of a psych problem. I would consider the problem to see if or how it could fit. If it doesn't then I would either be wrong, maybe he didn't have such a problem or, at least, to the degree in which it would cause a problem to my findings.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 15, 2012 16:35:18 GMT -5
Pretending is pretending. I see parents do things far worse to kids all the time without any intention of harm. Sometimes parents can be clueless, irresponsible, or just stupid.
How about a large unexplained money transfer from Lindbergh's account. Or a documented visit to a medical specialist. Or a record of a meeting, etc,etc.
In this case I refer to BRH and I say might because I do not believe he was properly diagnosed as such. But in terms of actions, anyone can be viewed as doing things which to others seem irrational. Hell, to a lot of people just being interested in this case is irrational and wasteful.
No worry, this is how things get resolved. Sure consider them, resolve the issue, make a determination, and move on.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 15, 2012 17:16:48 GMT -5
Michael you a-hole!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 15, 2012 17:29:32 GMT -5
I've noticed that when I get off-topic (talking about Marilyn Monro or something else cute but obscure) Michael directs me back on topic but when Kevkon gets off topic (discussing wood evidence for eighty years) he doesn't get directed back onto topic. Is it just a huh?
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Post by lightningjew on Aug 15, 2012 22:04:17 GMT -5
Michael, can you elaborate on "stuff we don't know about" (outside of Lindbergh pretending the baby had been kidnapped)?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 16, 2012 8:53:07 GMT -5
You, LJ, and Kevkon and Michael will never figure it out.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 16, 2012 9:16:30 GMT -5
Like the Monkees last good song said, "why don't you go save sombody else?"
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 16, 2012 12:51:03 GMT -5
Here's a plot for you guys. The FBI agent who was assigned to watch the L and C money handoff was Special Agent Laney. He was also the agent involved in the Kansas City Massacre which wasn't solved until the 1960s. Laney was the guy who blew Frank Nash' head off, and killed a KC policeman with a shotgun. Now if Hoover knew this (and he most likely did) it would mean he had leverage on the crime. Being that if Laney saw someone else (Fisch?) take the money, he could just say "Laney, you're doing big time."
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 16, 2012 12:57:04 GMT -5
Special Agent Laney it will be remembered by some, is the FBI agent who said that he didn't see the ransom money handoff because he missed watching the window by ten minutes - duh!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 16, 2012 14:36:33 GMT -5
Here's a plot for you guys. The FBI agent who was assigned to watch the L and C money handoff was Special Agent Laney. He was also the agent involved in the Kansas City Massacre which wasn't solved until the 1960s. Laney was the guy who blew Frank Nash' head off, and killed a KC policeman with a shotgun. Now if Hoover knew this (and he most likely did) it would mean he had leverage on the crime. Being that if Laney saw someone else (Fisch?) take the money, he could just say "Laney, you're doing big time." Jack, I think you mean special agent F. Joseph Lackey, and it's a little hard to blow someones head off when have 3 bullets in your spine. And know for something completely different. Anyone know why Anna Hauptmann would not speak to Hans Kloppenberg during the end of the 31 trip and for months after?
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Post by Michael on Aug 16, 2012 15:38:20 GMT -5
I am saving much of it for my book which you know I am writing (in theory at this point). I can tell you I will be hated more once it comes out. Not because it isn't true but because what I write will be - and undeniably so. He didn't miss anything. He saw it all exactly as it happened. To quote a famous American from the 1980s: You know I do (Kipland Ronald Dynamite) You should probably make this a poll question. Let me know when (or if) you want me to answer. (I could be wrong cuz I am going from memory).
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 16, 2012 15:44:33 GMT -5
Ur right about the name Lackey but wrong about the shotgun. The shotgun was in the back seat with Lackey and he was the only one who had access to it. Nash was in the front seat. Hoover tried a lot to solve that crime, but true, Lackey was shot three times, Lackey killed two innocent people. Those were the days of the early FBI guys, BNA BOI.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 16, 2012 16:16:44 GMT -5
And, Kevkon, you guys might have stumbled onto something that is really interesting. Hoover shut up what really happened long ago; the statements of dudes are perhaps looked at differently now.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 16, 2012 18:18:05 GMT -5
Great question Kevin, as I doubt anyone would be able to Google the answer to that one. This one absolutely rings a bell and I can even remember where I was living at the time I heard about it.. one of those time and space continuum things. I know Anna fell into the river while she was washing up things and Richard keeled over laughing but I think it was Hans who came to the rescue, so that doesn't really fit.. he should have got a kiss for that. I have a feeling it had to do with a disagreement over the breakdown of one or more of the travel expenses, so I guess that's my final answer. Hey Jack, all very interesting about the extracurricular exploits of Agent Lackey but really don't you think you could maybe start another thread here? How about calling it Headless Frank Nash? Or maybe $50,000 Would Be a Lot to Pay For Some Head? Even a sound clip of Warren Zevon's Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner to set the mood..
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 17, 2012 6:34:28 GMT -5
Ok Michael, is Joe correct?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 17, 2012 7:51:09 GMT -5
Good thinking Joe, you certainly sound like yourself, whatever that is. Unfortnately for you and the rest of the mob on here, the same agent who was asked to watch over the money pasoff from Lindbergh to the kidnapper, was the same agent who killed Frank Nash. Now Nash wasn't a very nice guy, but did he deserve to get his head blown off? That has as much to do with BRH as anything which has been posted on this site to date. Special Agent Lackey was looking for Richard Hauptmann and he overslept.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 17, 2012 9:49:59 GMT -5
Jack, if I might be able to sum this up, I'd say Richard Hauptmann can count his lucky stars that Lackey and his shotgun missed their second fifteen minutes of fame that night. Hauptmann looked a lot better on the witness stand with his head on his shoulders than he would have looked without it.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 17, 2012 13:29:29 GMT -5
The story of Frank Nash, SAC Lackey, Pretty Boy Floyd and about ten others in Kansas City that day is just as interesting as TLC, but Hoover covered it up. I always wondered what else he had the ability to cover up, including Linfbergh. It always seemed unusual to me that CAL stated so publicly that he would have nothing to do with Hoover. IME Lackey probably saw that it was not Hauptmann in the cemetary, but they (BOI) didn't know who it was and were afraid to arrest him because of CAL's direction. So when it all came down CAL dumps Hoover (power) by saying it isn't his guy. Lackey's ID of CJ would have been confidential and still is. If it was Fisch, however, and Lindbergh said it wasn't (testimony) Hoover wouldn't have got the honors which he didn't.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 17, 2012 14:25:01 GMT -5
Condon's original description of CJ at both Woodlawn and St. Raymond Cemeteries is nowhere near that of Fisch, but it is close to Hauptmann. I wouldn't say unequivocally that it was Hauptmann, but there are plenty of connections within the physical description, the ransom note and CJ's grammar and pronunciation, to make a much more compelling case for him over Fisch.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 17, 2012 15:32:47 GMT -5
Can Condon be relied upon? Ask Michael. Condon gave seven different descriptiond of CJ and picked out fourteen photos as him from police files plus stopping a bus to say that CJ was on the street. With all due respect to his kids and family, Condon was nuts. He went to Al Capone's house in Florida (traveling hundreds of miles) and Mrs. Capone wouldn't let him in - said the man "seemed cracy." So that's your source Joe!
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Post by Michael on Aug 17, 2012 16:20:44 GMT -5
I am not sure if this would count as a "travel expense" or not. From what I recall, it was over a post card or two. Anna bought some which she believed wound up in Hans's possession. She asked for them back and Kloppenberg said he had purchased them. The sparks flew and poor Richard was caught in the middle between his best friend and his Wife.
There's one where Condon said CJ exhibited in roads of disease, and either the same or a different one where CJ was continually coughing. It's hard to say if he was trying to point the finger at Fisch, at this time, or perhaps someone else.
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Post by jdanniel on Aug 17, 2012 16:22:19 GMT -5
Jack,
Could you please cite your source for this? I think there might be disagreement over which description Condon gave could be considered his "original."
And since he said Cemetery John had a fleshy lump at the base of his thumb, how would you account for the lack of evidence that Hauptmann ever had a fleshy lump?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 17, 2012 16:32:41 GMT -5
I didn't say that.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 17, 2012 16:44:30 GMT -5
I have never spoken on this site about Condon except in the post above to Joe. Somebody using me?
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