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Post by stella7 on Aug 27, 2016 14:14:24 GMT -5
I started to think about peach farms when I learned that the Lindbergh estate was bordered by an abandoned peach orchard. I thought illegal distilleries in the area were being supplied with fruit from abandoned orchards. Since Minnietown Rd was a possible access road to the Lindbergh Estate through an old peach farm, I thought there may be a connection.
The book, Hopewell:A Historical Geography says this about Minnietown.This hamlet initially developed in the 1860's as a settlement area for black basket makers brought into the area by the Wykoff family, the owners of a large peach orchard at nearby Buttonwood Corners(located on the north side of Sourland Mountainin neighboring East Amwell Twp). At it's peak, this settlement contained between 25-30 houses, but it was abandoned around the turn of the century when the local fruit growing industry began to decline. Since William Allen was african-american, I thought there may have be a connection there.
This book doesn't give the location of the illegal distilleries but says: Distilling was another type of agricultural processing performed in Hopewell during the 18th century. During the Revolutionary period several farms were operating cider mills or distilleries that were involved in the processing of local orchard products into cider and whiskey. During the 19th century, this activity came to be dominated by the Drake family, who owned several stills in Hopewell. The most notable was the Mount Rose distillery on Pennengton Rocky Hill Rd. A still house was here by the mid 19th century and remained active into the 20th century. During the prohibition era(1919-32), a number of small, clandestine distilleries were being operated in the more isolated parts of the township, and the remains of some of these survive.
And about Obert and Hill Peach Orchards it says: Peaches were another item grown in quantity in Hopewell and sold in regional urban centers. By the 1840's, the firm of Obert and Hill owned a number of large peach orchards on land owned by the Hill family on the southeastern slope between Woodsville and Marshall's Corner. Produce from these and other Hopewell orchards was sold in both Philadelphia and New York.
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Post by stella7 on Aug 27, 2016 14:48:11 GMT -5
Also, LJ's theory that the babt's remains were kept at the White Cloud Farm/Terhune Orchards vicinity and that the burlap bag that the CJr was in was the type used to make strips to winterize fruit trees was yet another orchard connection.
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Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2016 18:35:20 GMT -5
Also, LJ's theory that the babt's remains were kept at the White Cloud Farm/Terhune Orchards vicinity and that the burlap bag that the CJr was in was the type used to make strips to winterize fruit trees was yet another orchard connection. Here's page one of a report which might complement your post: Attachment Deleted
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Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2016 18:52:44 GMT -5
Wow! I had no idea this man was looked at so seriously. I think it shows that the authorities believed there was a local connection to this crime and that there was a gang involved with the kidnapping. The name John Gronski sounds familiar to me. I think I shall go through some of my stuff to see if its his name or another similar name I might be thinking of. Thanks for the report. It is amazing how much material and knowledge you have on this crime. Thanks Amy. I know I say this often, but it's important for me to say this again.... I don't know how many times I've heard: " I didn't go through that because I don't want to waste my time." Now I completely understand that most people don't live near the Archives, or if they do, don't have the time available to them I've made for myself so that I could constantly go there to research. But having said that, going through anything at the NJSP is NOT a waste of time. Everything there has value. Another problem is that people who don't even research there will tell you what's true and what's not - and they are actually serious. It's taken me every bit of 15 years to find the facts that no one knows about. So those who will not "like" what I've written obviously won't re-trace my steps to formulate a competent rebuttal (which, if they actually did that, would only be able agree with me) so they'll just do hatchet job posts because they have no other recourse. Now in my book I go into specific detail about the fingerprints. Prior to my book there has been 2 pro "Lone-Wolf" arguments: 1. Kelly didn't know what he was doing. 2. Kelly found partials but wrote he found nothing because they were useless. So where am I going with this? Well, while I didn't use this report in the book, back when I was researching the Orlando Farm I found one with references to "non-usable" prints. That was the first of many. And what do you think they said in describing those prints? Exactly. So strike excuse #2 off the list.
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Post by stella7 on Aug 27, 2016 20:11:03 GMT -5
Thanks Michael, I had read(probably on this board) that this may be a type of ladder used at nurseries, perhaps they used this design but the lengths of the sections were modified to fit into a car. Do you know who wrote this report?
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Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2016 21:08:00 GMT -5
Thanks Michael, I had read(probably on this board) that this may be a type of ladder used at nurseries, perhaps they used this design but the lengths of the sections were modified to fit into a car. Do you know who wrote this report? Here is page 2: Attachment Deleted
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Post by corrine on Sept 8, 2016 14:57:19 GMT -5
Who was... Mrs. Mac Donald - I know she was Mrs. Morrow's maid. Does anyone have info on her/where she was born ? / and who she worked for befor she worked at the Morrow's ?
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Post by Michael on Sept 8, 2016 16:07:55 GMT -5
Who was... Mrs. Elizabeth Mac Donald - I know she was Mrs. Morrow's maid. Does anyone have info on her/where she was born ? / and who she worked for befor she worked at the Morrow's ? Attachment Deleted
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Post by corrine on Sept 8, 2016 16:23:22 GMT -5
Who was... Mrs. Mac Donald - I know she was Mrs. Morrow's maid. Does anyone have info on her/where she was born ? / and who she worked for befor she worked at the Morrow's ? View AttachmentThank You Michael, I think I read somewhere years ago that Mrs. Morrow's maid was Mrs. McDonald she also came from Scotland. Thanks answering my question. I seen the list of people that left from Boston the day after the randsom was paid. # 23 Robert Mc Donald I wonder if they were related to each other?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 8:34:10 GMT -5
Michael,
When I was looking over the FBI chronology I started noticing some names I am not familiar with:
Jan. 1, 1933 - J. Floyd Williams
April 20, 1933 - Dean Preston Sutherland, alleged extortioner
April 25, 1933 - Sam Goldberg, alias "Sam the Gas Man" bootlegger
July 20, 1933 - James Oscar Farrell
I was curious if all these individuals came to the attention of the FBI because they traced ransom money back to them.
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Post by Michael on Oct 1, 2016 10:09:12 GMT -5
I was curious if all these individuals came to the attention of the FBI because they traced ransom money back to them. No. Most of the information about them in the FBI Summary is correct. There's some more about them out there but this sums it up nicely concerning them. Sam the Gas Man was brought up by more then one person and Farrell is all over the files too because he kept injecting himself by claiming intimate knowledge to whoever would listen.
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Post by xjd on Dec 25, 2016 23:30:59 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Dec 26, 2016 9:02:40 GMT -5
Great find - I've never seen a photo of that farm before.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Dec 29, 2016 9:11:23 GMT -5
Who was Officer Joseph Melsky, New Jersey State Police?
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Post by Michael on Dec 30, 2016 18:20:42 GMT -5
Who was Officer Joseph Melsky, New Jersey State Police? Page 327, footnote 955. I wish I had known what I do now back then. There's so much more I could have learned. However, I am lucky with what stuck with me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 11:30:39 GMT -5
Michael,
Who was John Craft? I am not familiar with this name. He is mentioned in the May 12, 1932 report of Det. Fitzgerald and Sgt. Zapolsky who were sent to pick up him plus William Allen, Orville Wilson and Livingston Titus.
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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2017 15:37:14 GMT -5
Who was John Craft? I am not familiar with this name. He is mentioned in the May 12, 1932 report of Det. Fitzgerald and Sgt. Zapolsky who were sent to pick up him plus William Allen, Orville Wilson and Livingston Titus. Craft was a co-worker who was helping them unload the truck at the saw mill. Wilson and Allen told both Titus and Craft about the discovery.
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Post by Michael on Feb 28, 2017 22:55:49 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 23:33:49 GMT -5
Michael,
Your link does not work. Any way you can fix it? A quick check on his name revealed that in 1935 he formed the Committee of 500 which supported a new trial for Hauptmann. I found a bunch of FBI files also which I will try to go through and see if they say anything about that committee.
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Post by Wayne on Feb 28, 2017 23:42:58 GMT -5
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Post by Wayne on Feb 28, 2017 23:45:49 GMT -5
Welll, that is certainly bizarre! If you copy the entire line and paste it, it will work.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 1:14:09 GMT -5
I will do that! Thanks, Wayne.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 14:36:18 GMT -5
Michael,
I have been going through the Mertig FBI file when I have extra time. Of course, I checked what the newspapers were reporting about the Committee of 500. I found a couple of interesting stories. One of them reported that Kurt Mertig was seeing Gov. Hoffman to present to him signed petitions on behalf of Bruno Richard Hauptmann. Did Mertig actually get to see Gov. Hoffman?
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Post by Michael on Mar 25, 2017 19:02:16 GMT -5
I have been going through the Mertig FBI file when I have extra time. Of course, I checked what the newspapers were reporting about the Committee of 500. I found a couple of interesting stories. One of them reported that Kurt Mertig was seeing Gov. Hoffman to present to him signed petitions on behalf of Bruno Richard Hauptmann. Did Mertig actually get to see Gov. Hoffman? I honestly don't know. I don't have anything in writing that I can refer to which would prove conclusive. I do have the petitions which means the Governor received them but that doesn't mean he personally took them from Mertig. My file on this guy is filled with letters he sent to the Governor asking him to speak with the Citizens Committee of 500, but Hoffman was constantly giving him excuses about previous engagements in order to avoid the request. At the same time he didn't want to discourage them either but it's obvious he was attempting to keep them at arms length. But again, because I don't have something to show they met it doesn't mean they didn't, however if I had a guess I'd say probably no. I am not sure if I posted this before so if I did then I apologize in advance: Attachment Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 8:41:59 GMT -5
I honestly don't know. I don't have anything in writing that I can refer to which would prove conclusive. I do have the petitions which means the Governor received them but that doesn't mean he personally took them from Mertig. My file on this guy is filled with letters he sent to the Governor asking him to speak with the Citizens Committee of 500, but Hoffman was constantly giving him excuses about previous engagements in order to avoid the request. At the same time he didn't want to discourage them either but it's obvious he was attempting to keep them at arms length. But again, because I don't have something to show they met it doesn't mean they didn't, however if I had a guess I'd say probably no. I am not sure if I posted this before so if I did then I apologize in advance: I would guess the same as you that they didn't actually meet. I would think that the last thing Hoffman would have wanted was for his name to be in the newspapers attached to Kurt Mertig. I have never come across this petition being posted on the board. So thanks for sharing that. I have one more person I want to touch base with you on and then I will let this rest for a bit while I continue through the FBI file. A man by the name of Rudolph Thielen addressed the Committee of 500 meetings about the Hauptmann case. When I read that name, I knew I had encountered it before, so I went to my Hauptmann files and found there was a Rudolph Thielen who was on the handwriting experts panel that Ed Reilly had put together for the defense. Oddly, Thielen supposedly thought that Hauptmann could have written the ransom notes. Yet in January of 1936 Thielen is addressing the Committee of 500 saying that the trial evidence is inconclusive as to Hauptmann's guilt as the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. Did Rudolph Thielen ever do work for Gov. Hoffman's reinvestigation effort?
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Post by Michael on Mar 26, 2017 12:56:32 GMT -5
I have one more person I want to touch base with you on and then I will let this rest for a bit while I continue through the FBI file. A man by the name of Rudolph Thielen addressed the Committee of 500 meetings about the Hauptmann case. When I read that name, I knew I had encountered it before, so I went to my Hauptmann files and found there was a Rudolph Thielen who was on the handwriting experts panel that Ed Reilly had put together for the defense. Oddly, Thielen supposedly thought that Hauptmann could have written the ransom notes. Yet in January of 1936 Thielen is addressing the Committee of 500 saying that the trial evidence is inconclusive as to Hauptmann's guilt as the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. Did Rudolph Thielen ever do work for Gov. Hoffman's reinvestigation effort? My first question to you is where Thielen said Hauptmann wrote the notes? I know that he has said the writing was "similar" yet repeatedly said he did not write them. He was one of the Defense handwriting experts and never "quit." The answer to your question is "yes." Thielen not only studied handwriting but, like many others during this time period, graduated from a Detective School then started the "Imperial Detective Bureau" located originally on 215 East 79th Street before moving to 1141 Broad St. in Newark. He offered Gov. Hoffman his services during his re-investigation of this case. He offered his services gratis because he strongly believed Hauptmann was innocent. He accompanied Trooper Lewis on several investigations. Since he was German, he was highly regarded among the German Organizations. During Hoffman's investigations, he was many times brought to where a German translator was needed, or when he was needed to introduce someone, like Lewis for example, as a member of the NJSP who could be trusted.
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 26, 2017 16:05:14 GMT -5
It's apparent what the dynamics were here. Hitler was in power in Germany and already doing some nasty things there. The "Citizens Committee of 500," as later events definitely proved, was a pro-Nazi front group in the German-American community. Hoffman sensed this, and was sure to maintain his distance. Of course, Hoffman was anti-Nazi but any incidental association with a pro-Nazi group would be the last thing he needed or wanted politically, especially since Hoffman himself was of German ancestry.
Hauptmann had no pro-Nazi inclinations either. The pro-Nazi groups who tried to help him after his conviction were motivated by their simplistic framing of his case as Jew (Wilentz) vs. German (Hauptmann). But by this time, Hauptmann had become desperate, being on death row, and was in no position to speak out against pro-Nazi individuals and groups coming belatedly to his cause.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 16:24:20 GMT -5
My first question to you is where Thielen said Hauptmann wrote the notes? I know that he has said the writing was "similar" yet repeatedly said he did not write them. He was one of the Defense handwriting experts and never "quit." Here is why I said Thielen supposedly thought Hauptmann wrote the notes. After I found Thielen's name on the list of Defense handwriting examiners, I went on a search through my books to see what other authors had to say about him. I checked Gardner, Cahill, Kennedy, Milton, Scaduto and even Wayne Jones. None of these authors mentioned Thielen at all. So then I decided to check one more book--Jim Fisher's Lindbergh Case book. I found Thielen in his index. So I went to the page number and here is what I found: Jim Fisher - The Lindbergh Case - page 346 "Reilly's handwriting case went up in smoke when Mrs. Charles Foster and Rudolph Thielen, his last two examiners, told him that they couldn't take the stand on the defendant's behalf." When I read that, one would conclude that Thielen thought that Hauptmann wrote the notes. So, if Thielen, after examining the handwriting documents, did not believe Hauptmann wrote the notes, why didn't he testify that way for the defense?? He was really needed in that courtroom.
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Post by Michael on Mar 26, 2017 17:12:17 GMT -5
Jim Fisher - The Lindbergh Case - page 346 "Reilly's handwriting case went up in smoke when Mrs. Charles Foster and Rudolph Thielen, his last two examiners, told him that they couldn't take the stand on the defendant's behalf." When I read that, one would conclude that Thielen thought that Hauptmann wrote the notes. So, if Thielen, after examining the handwriting documents, did not believe Hauptmann wrote the notes, why didn't he testify that way for the defense?? He was really needed in that courtroom. Well yes I can see why you thought that! Unfortunately, this is yet another example why I am so harsh towards Fisher's books. It's complete B***S***. The only Experts who declined to testify were Malone and Myers and, once again, not for the reason Fisher wrote in his book. As we see on page 338 of The Case That Never Dies it was about money. As far as both Foster and Thielen they were not utilized by Reilly. I will search to find out exactly why, but to emphasize how wrong JF is I have Toma Foster's opinion right in front of me and it says that her conclusion was that Fisch wrote the ransom notes - not Hauptmann.
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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 27, 2017 8:41:14 GMT -5
Jim Fisher - The Lindbergh Case - page 346 "Reilly's handwriting case went up in smoke when Mrs. Charles Foster and Rudolph Thielen, his last two examiners, told him that they couldn't take the stand on the defendant's behalf." When I read that, one would conclude that Thielen thought that Hauptmann wrote the notes. So, if Thielen, after examining the handwriting documents, did not believe Hauptmann wrote the notes, why didn't he testify that way for the defense?? He was really needed in that courtroom. Well yes I can see why you thought that! Unfortunately, this is yet another example why I am so harsh towards Fisher's books. It's complete B***S***. The only Experts who declined to testify were Malone and Myers and, once again, not for the reason Fisher wrote in his book. As we see on page 338 of The Case That Never Dies it was about money. As far as both Foster and Thielen they were not utilized by Reilly. I will search to find out exactly why, but to emphasize how wrong JF is I have Toma Foster's opinion right in front of me and it says that her conclusion was that Fisch wrote the ransom notes - not Hauptmann.
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