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Post by rick3 on Jan 4, 2010 9:13:19 GMT -5
Go-between Malone flies below the radar in multiple venues. Lets try to tie all these loose ends together; - "...when Lindbergh passed the ransom note around Rosner turned white and started trembling all over" (...) Meanwhile Breckenridge was closeted with Owney Madden in the Park 5th Avenue offices of a famous New york defense attorney, Dudley Field Malone. Rosner now had more concerns as Malone claimed to have good contacts. Gardner p 45.
- March 4th 1932....Dudley Field Malone telephones that he had recieived a call from someone claiming to be the kidnaper! Malone visited by Colonel Breckenridge! FBI Files p. 36 [DFM even beat Condon in as go-between]
- March 24th 1932-- Mr. Dudley Field Malone, attorney at law, NYC, informed officers of the Michigan State Police that he was approached by a representative of the New York Daily Mirror and was asked to be an intermediate in the Lindbergh kidnap case. Malone was embarrased when the New York Daily Mirrow published in large headlines that he was willing to be a go-between in the case... he recieved several anonymous communications through the mail and by telephone and spent the better part of 5-6 weeks trying to communicate w/ the kidnappers? FBI Files/p408-409.
- "... Malone proceeded to Montreal and met Williaim Dooley and Harry Sitner at the Ritz Hotel, and it is Malones belief that the kidnapping plot originated at the United States Pennitentiary at Leavenworth Kansas while William Fleisher (brother of Harry Fleisher) , JW Dooley and Harry Sitner were confined at that institution. FBI p.408
- "I worked on the Lindbergh Case w/ the New York Daily Mirror, Dudley Field Malone, Owney Madden and Sir Henry Thorton of the Canadian National Railroad.' I was connected and associated w/ the case from its very inception, in fact, The Toronto Globe and Montreal Star contended that I moved Harry Fleisher, Leader of the Detroit Purple Gang, from Lewis, Quebec to Lansing Michigan to confer with Governor Willbur Bruckner of Michgan " JW Dooley letter in Hysteria..p. 23.[Dutch]
- Russian-communist GPU connections in Paris: "Not until 2 years later, on returning to NYCity, did I learn this was the same attorney that had occasioned considerable attention immediately after the Lindbergh kidnapping by his repeated advertising in the daily press for the "snatchers" to get in touch with him" Major Pease in The Hole in the Hauptmann Case...p. 34.
- So, if there were any secret backdoor, back-channel, behind-the-scenes negotiations for CJrs return from the Purple Gang it looks like Dudley is our man?
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Post by Michael on Jan 4, 2010 11:58:47 GMT -5
Malone gave Madden high marks commenting that Madden was very sincere about his attempts to help and that he truly was doing everything in his power to assist. This was important since it has been implied that the "Mob" were only in this for selfish reasons.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 5, 2010 4:05:38 GMT -5
Michael...heres our partial list of go-betweens (GBs, designated, suggested or self-appointed); We dont have to go much further than CALs endless list of "go-betweens" to discover colossal bungling in the LKH: - The first two men to fill this role were Douglas G. Thompson, former mayor of Englewood(?) and Morrow family secretary Arthur Springer? "the Press gave maximum press coverage therebye insuring the kidnappers would know". Bern p.70
- In a wink of an eye Wild Bill Donovan sends in Robert Thayer and Mickey Rosner from Wash DC. Rosner is under criminal indictment for grand larceny/fraud. Excellent choice?
- but...." by midnoon the following day, Mickey Rosners attempt to usurp Thompson and Springer ran into a huge stumbling block: Owney Madden, one of the most powerful mobsters in NYC. Suspecting that Rosner was in league with Federal Agents, Madden was reluctant to follow Rosners plan"? pg 101 Bern "Go-Betweens" Chap 9
- Then in a stroke of genius, Rosner brings in mobster thugs Salvy Spitale and Irving Bitz, also under indictment, for muscle.
- In no time Atty Breckenridge takes a short stint as GB after Cerrita and Berrittella advise him to get up early and wait in his office....March 8th.
- But the next day Jafsie Condon puts his personal ad into the Bronx Home News and goes fishing for an extortion. He hits paydirt in no time at all?
- But what if Egans Rats steal Charlie and take him out on a yacht near Sandy Hook, NJ? Can they read the Bronx Home News? NO, so they need to enlist John Hughes Curtis?
- But what if the Purple Gang steals Charlie and takes him to Philly or Reading PA, or New Haven CT (Cayce) or Boston Ma or Montreal Canada? Can they read the Bronx Home News in Philly to get JFCs name and number? I dont think so...
- We cant name one single accomplishment by one or any of the numerous go-betweens so it was all a Fools Errand.
- Not one go-between ever confirmed that Charlie Jr was still alive, in spite of many protestations, or where he was for 72 days before he was returned to Mt. Rose Hill in a burlap bag "to be found" by William Allen?
- At times it was evident that even CAL himself didnt know who was the real go-between. [Curtis or Condon?] This case might be characterized as "kidnappers in search of a go-between?"
Trouble is, Dudley Field Malone is not even listed above, and does not even merit an honorable mention in Bern's Chapter on Go-Betweens? Now it turns out that Malone was one of Breckenridges "quick picks" and that apparently Malone is advertising for the kidnappers to contact him? And they do...both by mail and by phone. Then Malone starts going on "interstate wild goose chases" to find Charlie Jr in Michgan, Montreal, Massachusettes and Vermont?....some instigated by the Purple Gang? So who, pray tell, is contacting Malone? Is he running a parrallel operation to Condon's--who is severly limited to the circulation of the Bronx Home News? How are the many gangs supposed to know which go-between to contact? [probably not JFC?] Malone was pimping for Hearst News all the way thru April 1st? [FBI Files]
As for Go-between Madden...heres a great quote from the FBI Files: "...Bill Duffy, Owney Madden, Big Frenchy and others held a number of conferences and Owney advised Breckenridge not to pay the money at St. Raymonds...that they knew Harry Fleisher had "the package" because he was able to state various character marks which he relayed to Owney who had Breckenridge confirm them; further--that they knew two mobs were interested: Frank Nitti and Charlie Genna for Capone and Fleisher and Abe Wagner for the Purple Gang." page 411 FBI Files
So now Breckenridge is triple timing at least 3 go-betweens independently: Condon, Malone and Madden? this makes Condon's Bronx Mafia look like a purposeful diversion, clever ruse or misdirection--just as it ended up? Maybe JFC had to invent or enlist his own gang just to stay in the spotlight? Maybe we should nominate Col. Breckenridge as the stoop-shouldered man at St. Raymonds since he claimed he..."saw the fellow that Condon paid the money to..." and he was Condon's designated minder? page 411 FBI Files
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Post by Michael on Jan 5, 2010 19:34:07 GMT -5
Before Hibben's death I suppose we could add him to the list of those acting as a "go-between"... It depends how you define it I guess.
Malone spent a good amount of his own money and his attention seems to focus on the "Leavenworth" angle although prior to that Madden was sleeping on his floor while they worked together on the Case.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 7, 2010 2:40:40 GMT -5
Dudley Field Malone was well respected and well connected... within the Democratic Party, nationally and internationally. He represents a serious and credible go-between for the return of CJr--the antithesis of self-agrandizing wingnut JFC Condon! So why were Breckenridge, Madden, CAL and WRHearst using DFMalone as a go-between for CJrs safe return from the Purple Gang... behind JFC-Condon's back/sideshow in the Bronx? Possibly even, without the blessing of the secret symbol signature (SSS) and for a ransom reportedly as high as $250,000 as documented only in the FBI Files? What does Hibben's death have to do with this--he was President of Princeton and he dint die until 1933: John Grier Hibben (April 19, 1861, Peoria, Illinois – May 16, 1933, Union County, New Jersey) was a Presbyterian minister, a philosopher, and educator. He served as president of Princeton University from 1912–1932, succeeding Woodrow Wilson and implementing many of the reforms started by Wilson.[1][2] Maybe it would be helpful if we were to try and make some objective comparison between go-betweens: Condon vs. Malone? - Breckenridge is closely associated with both; but its pretty clear that he is babysitting Condon just in case hes a loose cannon or whack job (sic).
- Condon pushes himself forward as a go-between whereas Malone is sought after by others including Hearst News.
- Condon is pretty much operating on his own with his family for support out of his house--his ad appears in the Bronx Home News with a very low readership, mostly in German? It was even conjectured as to whether BRH read the ad in the BHN?
- Malone is working in concert with Owney Madden out of his office--his , some by others for him are in the New York Daily Mirror...presumably a Hearst paper with a wide circulation extended readership....see below.
- By the 1930s, the Daily Mirror was one of the Hearst Corporation's largest papers in terms of circulation and By 1932, Mirror circulation passed 500000...second only to the NYNews at 1000000.
The circulation of the Bronx Home News was a mere 150,000 and only covered the Bronx and Manhattan.
- although Rosner gets wind of Malone, and shows some contempt or jealosy--Rosner pretty much just ignores Condon? Maybe he did not see Jafsie as a threat to his operation?
- Condon is experiencing all kinds of exciting contacts with local Bronx street people...gypsies, scissor grinders, salesman, taxi drivers, carpenters, violin efficianatos etc.
- If reports are confirmed, Malone seems to be handling the out-of-state traffic from Michigan, Connecticut, Vermont, Canada and contacting out of state Governors including FDR as per Dutch in Hysteria.
- It quickly appears that Malone is in a League of his own way above Jafsie's paygrade? So who does CAL really trust to retrieve the Eaglet--a reknown defense attorney or a well-known vaudville blowhard? You make the call: Whos the real deal and who is the decoy?
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Post by Michael on Jan 8, 2010 16:46:43 GMT -5
Breck didn't trust Condon.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 9, 2010 5:25:19 GMT -5
Breck didn't trust Condon. It appears there was very little to trust when it comes to Jafsie. His entire Extortion in the Bronx looks like a phony setup right from the start? Havent you quessed many times that he was paid up front right from the get-go (+/- $20,000) to run this scam and that the ransom was NOT supposed to be collected? Condons gang never had to prove they ever had CJr and likely included his friends, family and associates like Temple of Divine Power and Abe Samuelsohn just around the corner? The only person that gave Condon any shred of credibilty was CAL by protecting him at all costs? Jafsie was paid to keep center stage and out compete all the other gangs as long as possible? Like those Curtis guys down South? Its very difficult to see how Breckenridge and CAL would be pursuing different strategies vis-a-vis Condon? Arnt they always on the same page--Condon as a decoy/diversion/red herring? It sure would be interesting if Lindbergh was trying to pull a fast one on Breck?
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Post by Michael on Jan 9, 2010 9:29:00 GMT -5
It's a very good point you make here Rick.
If the "secret symbol" is the proof, why then does Lindy run off with Curtis? What made him go this time but blow him off others? Breck didn't trust Condon which was the reason for him hanging out at his home.
Why does Lindy tell Agent Larimer he didn't trust Condon then testify he did?
Why did Lindy tell Walsh he believed Curtis then testified he didn't?
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Post by rick3 on Jan 9, 2010 11:30:34 GMT -5
My best quess comes in part from Alhgren and Monier--Lindbergh quickly became the victim of his own success? A and M queried why CAL could not remember where he was the afternoon of March 1st...but Harry Walsh slipped one time suggesting that CAL had actually been back to Highfields in the afternoon? Its possible.
Lindbergh had to keep playing off all the so-called gangs that sprang up like cottage industries to take advantage of the ransom money during a Depression. At least as far as we can ascertain, the Condon Mafia, the Curtis rumrunners, nor the Means gang ever had any contact with Charley Jr. I think he went with Curtis because noone could contact them out in the ocean sailing the ocean blue...other than Anne when the body was found on Mt. Rose Hill? CAL needed a time out and Curtis was let go scot free? Probably CAL just took advantage of a chance to get away from home and sail out on a yacht? He may have known noone was going to find the Eaglet?
Everything we know, including Ben Lupica's testimony. suggests that the Crime of the Century was a huge hoax, staged to cover up some other embarassing event or series of events? But CAL was the All-American Hero and a Sacred Cow who could not be doubted or crossed up. Literally, a God in human form who could do no wrong.
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mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Jan 9, 2010 13:10:32 GMT -5
Rick, And some source (I forget which)said Cal was still being the prankster out on the boat with Curtiss. Odd, but then again he was an oddball by nature, huh?
------ ------
I'll declare, all this global warming certainly has me in the deep freeze! Would guess many of you are experiencing the same with all this "white stuff". Hope you are managing OK.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 9, 2010 15:18:06 GMT -5
Mairi, yes--that and other practical jokes sure were odd...Al Dunlap went the furthest saying that after the kidnap "Col. Lindbergh was naturally a sick person mentally, and therefore not competent to use normal judgement in directing a crime investigation, even assuming under normal circumstances he might be capable of doing so"? In Silent Witness--Why No Lie Detector for the Lindbergh Case? p. 156. CALs previously private personality completely morphed/snapped as he took control...and invited cops and news into his home? "As soon as it was light enough to see, we took off. Lindbergh and Breckenridge were in the front, JFC and I behind them. The take-off was perfect, Lindberghs hands and nerves were in complete control. After we had sufficient altitude, Breckenridge asked to take over the controls. He too was a flyer and this seemed an opportunity to get in some flying time. "As Breckenridge flew, Lindbergh quietly crossed the controls and wires and in no time Breckenridge was baffled to find the plane rising when he wanted to lose altitude and turning right when he wanted to turn left? His amazement amused Lindbergh. It was quite a scene, Lindbergh playing practical jokes, Breckenridge wondering if he was crazy, and JFC jowling excepts from the Song of Solomon (and Hamlet?)." Irey/ Tax Dodgers/p. 78 Searching for Boad Nelly Sunday April 3rd. When a high ranking, popular person starts believing in his own mythology or invulnerabilty....[think Hitler]....only the sky becomes the limit? In Cal's case, he could even conquer the sky! Maybe this should be called: Power, Personality and Privilege leading to Injustice? Since Lindbergh is calling all the shots and protecting Condon at all costs--its like he is trying to juggle 12 balls in the air at any one time. Only the sycophantic, lapdog, hero-worshiping nature of our society would permit Lindbergh to sit at the Prosecution table with a gun and intimidate witnesses in Fleming ton with impunity? Maybe he should have been the Judge and Jury too/ anything CAL says goes even before he says it? CAL even threatens to shoot NY Police Comish Mulrooney? Since Breckenridge is his attorney of record--anything he knows is priveledged and confidential...just like a Priest. Isnt it odd that later on Brecks daughter was shot to death in California?
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Post by Michael on Jan 11, 2010 10:08:00 GMT -5
Well yes, he confides in Breck but to what extent we do not know. Next, Breck becomes involved... Actually involved in the Case. So information from a Client is one thing but to actually become involved would tie him into a Conspiracy IF he has knowledge, prior, past, or present - that Lindbergh is involved. To purposely prevent, misrepresent, or misdirect the Police by actual involvement would be a crime.
Schwarzkopf does eventually write and ask if charges could or should (I'll have to check the document) be filed after the ransom was delivered against him.
So I think from my research there's no way Breck would do that to himself. Now if the information he rec's is Lindbergh's crazy bro-in-law is involved, does his involvement then constitute a crime? I don't see where. He's simply trying to get the child back.... but of course I could be wrong.
Then one must consider where Large was armed with his Client's information then was allowed to flip sides and use it against him. So it was a nutty world back then where things happened that I don't believe would now, or if they did, would get overturned by a more competent/higher Court.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 11, 2010 19:21:49 GMT -5
I guess what bugs me is that we arnt certain what, if any, the actual crime was? As you suggest, it could be a cover-up of some harm that came to Charlie Jr at the hand of Dwight Jr. and/or Elizabeth? It might even have sprung from jealousy over the will and legacy of Dwight Sr moving up Charlie to receivership in his will? Recall, that someone charged that CAL later changed his name to Jr? ... but how long would it take to come up with all the planning that went into the kidnap? More than just a couple hours or days....not on the fly. Although it could have accelerated due to panic right at the end? [havent you quessed in the past the crime was planned for the next weekend?]
But what if there wasn't any real crime? Lindbergh could have been warned about a pending kidnap and whisked CJr away, like Constance, to preempt his being stolen. Maybe then something went wrong unintentionally? Often we hear about the accident of death? This might be on practically anyones watch, even Violets? He might have died from natural causes, pneumonia or SIDS. We also know he was not on Mount Rose for 72 days. [Its even possible that another kid was subbing in for Charlie as a decoy and got himself snatched?]
I seriously doubt if CJr was at Highfields the nite of March 1st? This is why the nursery was pristine and free of fingerprints. It had been scrubbed squeaky clean at some prior date--even over the weekend? Likely, Ellerson realized this pretty quickly...when he saw the green coupe in the drive. All of this might have been due to warnings by FDR or James from Thomas F. Rice?/
I dont think that Dwight Jr and/or Elizabeth would be in charge of Cjr at Highfields, but more than likely if they were involved at all then something went wrong at Next Day Hill at some earlier time-point. Violet would get wind of this, along with others, and let the cat out of the bag? Causing a cascade of ransom demands from every con in the tri-states?
Thats the problem with a family secrets--no publicity and no photos. Don't ask/ don't tell.
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Post by Michael on Jan 12, 2010 18:37:21 GMT -5
Anyway you look at it there was a crime committed.
My suggestion was simply an example to show the varying degrees of possibilities.
Bill Norris's book covers the Dwight Morrow Jr. angle, and Behn's book the Elisabeth theory. I honestly think there is something to learn while exploring these possibilities. Even if DMJr. had nothing to do with it, an impression could be created by trying to defend/hide his "issues" that the family considered private.
So what I am saying is you could have a "cover-up" going on concerning a whole different issue which is then confused as being related and/or connected to this Case.
There's no doubt in my mind Charles Jr. was at Highfields on March 1st.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 13, 2010 6:15:47 GMT -5
OK, I will just free-associate: (a work in progress)
1. The Crime--something bad happens to lil[ Charlie in the way of an injury--he "falls" out the window, gets hit in the head by a rock, run over by a car or epileptic seizure/etc. The injury could be fatal or near fatal--and cant just be any olde accident? He might even have been left unattended? The crime might even be the faking of any kidnap? Someone might be feel responsible for Charlies injuries...someone in the Family. the Family decides to circle the wagons to prevent further inquiries? Isnt Dwight in College at Amherst at this time? Every Cons Dream!
2. The Cover-up--but the most likely cover story is that Charlie Jr, who may be dead or in hospital...has been kidnapped? The crime scene is staged...so noone knows where Charlie is for 72 days...Dead or Alive? this is where CAL takes over and makes a bunch of suspicious decisions like no bloodhounds/ no questioning servants, no Boy Scouts, no catching CJ? Isnt covering up a missing person, a crime as well--as such the coverup(2) could be the 2nd crime(1)? Two crimes dont make it right?
3. The Extortion in the Bronx--not directly connected to the Crime(1) is separate, but a natural extention of the Cover-up(2). Its always good to get Free money when you cant be held responsible for the actual crime of coverup itself.
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Post by Michael on Jan 13, 2010 8:24:58 GMT -5
1.
A. Dwight isn't at College during the kidnapping - right?
B. It was by CAL's orders the child was to be unattended.
C. I think the idea or consideration concerning "when" he died might lead somewhere.
2.
Lot's of questions concerning the crime scene. Was it staged? If not, very sloppy yet exactly on target. How so in this situation? Advanced planning or ad-lib from an immigrant carpenter from the Bronx? Something isn't right - but is it what we suspect or maybe something different? If the child is in the hospital that makes an awful lot of people guilty of a cover-up. No way I will ever buy into that. Once the kidnapping happens all bets are off for anything like that to have happened.
3.
It's always been my position that the extortion wasn't supposed to happen. Whoever continues on this path has to have been a party to the original plan - it some way or another.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 14, 2010 4:06:08 GMT -5
1. the Crime....well it is really hard for me to decide whether or not there was a real kidnapping by outsiders? I suppose it could still be by Capone/Purple gang to get prison relief.....but things get way too weird on CALs part to suite me? His reactions are not normal...and he is behaving strange. All offers are answered NO? Maybe he was in shock or just puzzled?
A. Norris discovered that Dwight Jr. was at Highfields on March 1st? this suggests he had advanced notice to arrive and puts more guilt onto Elizabeth...if that works? Of course, Dwight was also at Next Day when Violet died too? How convenient...Dwight teams up w/ CAL? And its Elizabeth that is MIA? So she becomes our prime suspect.
B. It would be interesting to know when CAL first starting insisting that noone visit the kid during the 7-10pm window of opportunity....Jan 1932? Or before?
C. Yes....we have no really valid reference point? this is so frustrating/ no photos of CJr this year? In fact...they use his first birthday photo on the Posters? Sometimes I imagine he died in 1931? Al Dunlap guessed the body on Mt. Rose dead up to 8 months?
2. The Coverup.....The crime scene was staged and it was almost from the get go an Inside Job? The timing was good...too good...but the forensic evidence did not support anybody climbing thru the window...not even close...not enough mud. Especially with CAL in the Library below and Wagoosh.
A. So try this one(?): charlie is dead, there is a kidnap planned and reported to CAL coming up soon....so....better hurry up? Noone wants to kidnap a dead baby? Better skip NYU dinner.
B. On my dart board--Gow, Red, Violet and Junges are still in...after all they are from Hamburg? and pardoned by Jafsie? Red has a new green chevy coupe...
C. Well, somebody s the beans on the phoney insider kidnap. And all investigators, including the MOB, cant find Cjr. So, at that point, everybody and thier brother wants in...its a more perfect Con than even the cons can dream of? CAL cant find a way out? No clearcut exit strategy? So he hides out on a yacht with Curtis out of sight for 19 days until one can be arranged. Cui bono?
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jan 14, 2010 14:43:50 GMT -5
Hey Rick How come you involve everyone except the one person we know was responsible for the ladder and we know had the money? These complicated theories are interesting and quite creative but they never seem to be able to incorporate a link to the one man we know was involved. Why is that? There would certainly have to be a lot of stops from the top to BRH and yet not slightest evidence of any such connection has surfaced even with all the efforts by the many brilliant researchers that have looked for one. I always find it ironic that lack of evidence ie; fingerprints, witnesses, muddy footprints, etc, is employed to discredit the notion of Hauptmann kidnapping the child and at the same time the total absence of evidence linking him to a large scale criminal conspiracy is ignored.
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Post by Michael on Jan 14, 2010 16:44:33 GMT -5
It's important to note Kevin's objections....
If there was no "outside" kidnapping then how does one reconcile, at least, outside involvement. I think its a very tough sell to say there wasn't any.
Ever since Kevin & Rab independently and neutrally came to the same conclusion about Rail 16 - I can't see how Hauptmann would be only involved in the extortion end of things. That's not to say I believe he was climbing a ladder on March 1st in Hopewell, I just think a major hurdle has been negotiated which throws him into the mix of things.
If someone on the inside were to be involved, certainly they would insulate themselves from those employed to commit the act or acts (however you like).
Lindbergh, Elisabeth, and even Dwight Morrow Jr. weren't stupid people. I have a feeling even if a nexus could be found it might be rejected by some, maybe even most, but that would be the first step. And with each passing day that task becomes harder and harder. Regardless, its not an unreasonable request for anyone to ask for this connection. In its absence we would need something big, or quite a lot of little things to be added up, in order to insinuate a connection must have existed - even though the smoking gun has been lost.
B. I would like to know this too Rick. It could lead a "when" this knowledge may have been gleaned or learned.
C. If Dunlap says 8 months I am not buying that.
2. I think there's an attempt to cover some things up. By who is the big question. It doesn't have to be anyone on the inside but that seems to be the "easiest" or "least restrictive" conclusion.
A. Too many nosy Operators for that to be true.
B. Possible nexus perhaps but not the Perpetrators (imo).
C. The mistake was letting CAL run the investigation.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jan 14, 2010 18:28:37 GMT -5
I think it's important to remember that every time you add another person to the crime and thus the complexity of it, the potential for discovering more evidence rises exponentially. That's why the hardest crimes to solve are those in which there is no relationship between the perp(s) and the victim and there are not many involved. Another point, since we know Hauptmann was involved there would necessarily need to be a bridge from him to the "mastermind". How would this connection be established and maintained? How would the communication required to plan and execute this crime be accomplished? In other words, who would be the bridge to Hauptmann? It's a weak link that would be prone to break sooner or later. And let's not forget that this bridge would have to exist all the way up to the execution in order to maintain Hauptmann's silence.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 15, 2010 3:15:18 GMT -5
Kevin--you are absolutely right! In order to insure that everything works "on time" like clockwork, the family may have to hire their own personal kidnap gang thru someone they can trust? Someone with a good track record for keeping secrets. Someone willing to put his life on the line for truth, motherhood, baseball, apple pie and the American way of life. You know--to keep the country safe and fight the Marxist-Commie menace.
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Post by Michael on Jan 15, 2010 7:26:08 GMT -5
Kevin is right. The more involved the more possibility information is "out there" or the potential for it.
The Lindbergh, and especially the Morrow families were good at keeping a "lid" on things. So in their cases secrets were a little easier to hide. But this might be the reason for all the speculation.... that they were keeping secrets about other things so when Police approached it they knocked it down and went no further.
But let's face it here.....
We have a situation where someone is caught but isn't talking. He had help no matter what level or any way you look at it. His help was never caught. Those used to assist, minus Perrone & Condon - are never found.
And they were real.
The key here is to evaluate then apply what other real information we have.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 15, 2010 18:15:17 GMT -5
Norris' book was entitled A Talent to Deceive...and now we know way more about how extensive the deceptions could be! So individuals, like servants for instance, could have been misled by all manner of lies and misrepresentations--as well as veiled threats that they would never work again if they violated Family secrecy? Only In-Violet seemed to take no never mind anyways?
1. who convinced BRH not to talk? Condon/ Hoffman/ Nazi Ministers--what else other than bribery and threats could they employ? Or did BRH take a solemn oath of silence?
2. Are you outting Condon and Perrone as "helpers"?
3. Are those missing: italian phone callers/ women who visited Condon/ the Tuckahoe woman/ scissor grinder/ salesman/ taxi driver #2/ Italian stoop shouldered lookout + hankerchief/ladder driver/ other 2 men recieiving ransom at St. Raymonds? Even this is a pretty large gang? Did they make an example of BRH to shut them up...maybe, but not for 30 odd months? [thas a long time to keep any secret--unless you are guilty]
4. Al Dunlap recieved this weird letter in March 1933....see FBI files page 425:
"...there were no gangsters in it. Two men and several women, all of them spicks, still dwelling in the Spanish-Negro section of Harlem. Harlem, incidentally, is where most of the ransom money was found. The Principals in the case have been up for the last 3 nites with the Secret Servicemen...who finally found one of the women who talked. Some of the original suspects freed early on were in on it, as well as the one suicide. {Red, Betty, Brinkert, Violet?} If the father {CAL?} doesnt interfere this time, the Government will send them all to jail." end quote {my parens}
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Post by Michael on Jan 15, 2010 18:55:21 GMT -5
1. I believe he was worried about his family.
2. Condon knew more, and was employed to be a diversion and obstruct justice. Perrone knew less, was an innocent tool, and indentified people like Chetel who looked absolutely nothing like Hauptmann. He was coerced into identifying him.
3. You've covered most...there's some more but that's for later. You did forget J.J. Faulkner, and the person spending ransom after Hauptmann is arrested. Richard Sloan once again raised the issue concerning who was supposed to watch the child if that was the intent.....because it sure wasn't going to be Hauptmann.
4. Lots of letters like this. Maybe one day one of them might actually mean something. But we have to look in order to find out.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 16, 2010 8:00:00 GMT -5
3. I'm sticking tight with Noel Behn and JE Hoover on the identity of JJ Faulkner: JJ Nosovizky...International Spy. Makes the whole case way more interesting with Jacob included...especially when you hook him up with Isador Fisch. Maybe JJ and Izzy became BFFs and together masterminded the extortion at St. Raymond's? This would clearly be to BRH's detriment since the mastermind(s) never get caught and surely never burn! That role is reserved for the loosers...
Thats the whole problem...Doc Nosovitsky was reported to be travelling with a woman companion, and Harold C. Keyes was investigating a reputed sweetheart of Isador Fisch. Either of these women might have served as Cjrs ersatz babysitter?
"What was more", Harry Green said, "the governor knew who killed the child. People never understood why the governor risked his career for Bruno Hauptmann. It was because he always knew there wasn't any kidnapping." Noel Behn page 355
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 16, 2010 8:38:02 GMT -5
The key is Hauptmann. Was he a habitual career criminal ? Had he been involved in criminal activities in the USA prior to the LKC? Was he an amateur ? Was the LKC his first foray into crime post Germany?
The answers to these questions determine the nature and extent of the crime. That includes the notion of a large criminal conspiracy. This is the key to the entire crime. Unfortunately, I guess Herr Hauptmann is just not interesting enough to concentrate on.
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Post by Michael on Jan 16, 2010 9:14:44 GMT -5
He's an interesting character Rick. I know that Joe has spent a lot of time investigating him.... But I don't think he was.
He is the one thing - we know. His investigation is the largest in the NJSP Collection. I truly believe he leads to others involved.
The big problem with his investigation is the obvious attempt at molding the evidence. Accepting bogus information and/or leading people to say things they aren't comfortable with. Once Hauptmann is arrested, everyone says they "saw" him. However, once properly followed up they say it wasn't him, they couldn't say it was him, or that it was Schippel they saw.
The only people who place him in Hopewell, ever, completely lied about it. That's a hard sell knowing that everyone seemed to have noticed everyone and everything else.
This, I think, is what leads us to explore causing us to then cross over and leads us to other suspicions to look into.
1. Was Hauptmann in charge?
2. Was Hauptmann in Hopewell?
3. Was Hauptmann in Hopewell on March 1st?
4. Did Hauptmann or his Confederates have inside help at either Hopewell or Englewood?
5. Was Fisch involved, and what does his past suggest to us?
6. Did Hauptmann know Condon as both evidence and common sense suggest - or is this another bit of luck or coincidence?
Very good question. If he was the Police here missed all of his crimes leading up to March 1st.
I would say yes but I have no evidence of it. I've always said his personality seems to indicate he's interested in anything where he can make easy money.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 16, 2010 14:47:43 GMT -5
I'd have to say that in itself does not bode well for the notion that Hauptmann was a hired hand in the LKC. To be so, he would certainly have to be a "known" commodity in the criminal underworld. That, in turn, would almost certainly make him known to the police. If he wasn't known to the cops prior to 1934, then he sure would be after his arrest. There would surely be some criminal who would turn over info on Hauptmann. The bottom line is that no one could possibly consider engaging Hauptmann to participate in the LKC if he was unknown in the first place. If you even think about approaching someone to take part in a crime of this audacity, you had better be damn sure they are a "player". Unless someone can provide some evidence that Hauptmann was indeed vetted and a proven criminal asset for a conspiracy to kidnap the Lindbergh child, I would say it's pretty obvious that Hauptmann acted either alone or with 1 or 2 others more closely aligned with himself.
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Post by Michael on Jan 16, 2010 20:03:34 GMT -5
You are assuming the heavy hitters of the underworld were the ones contacted. If that were the case these people would have been caught.
How does being an affiliate to a known criminal organization become a pre-requisite for doing something illegal?
Also, if this were true then wouldn't Fisch have been? Here's a guy known to some as a criminal, a hustler, a business person, a furrier, rich, or poor. Depended who you spoke with. All the while flying below the radar of Law Enforcement.
Kevin, back during this era EVERYONE had a price. Police included. Some Cops even had a record. Just about anyone and everyone did things according to their own moral compass. Even the FBI, while not participating in Hauptmann's beating, didn't stop the NJSP or the NYPD from breaking the law - when they did. They had both a duty and an obligation to stop it.
Also, take Perrone as an example. A Confederate employs him to drop the note. Certainly, it was a clever decision to insulate himself from that direct contact. Yet, Perrone is not only unknown he is innocent. But he has no idea what the note says, and if he does - he still delivers it doesn't he?
Does it mean this is what happened? No. But there's nothing in my mind which disqualifies it. Could Hauptmann have been in league with people close to him? Sure. With some who weren't? Surely. Some who were and some who weren't? Absolutely. Who's idea was it? Where did this plot come from? And where did they get the intel they needed to pull it off?
If it was someone on the inside - it worked. If it wasn't then how did it happen - because that worked too. No one went down except the guy who was stupid enough to do what Hauptmann did to get caught.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 16, 2010 20:20:31 GMT -5
I'm not assuming that at all, Michael. I'm simply stating the obvious; if Hauptmann was not actively engaged in criminal activity then no one would know or want to engage him in a major crime. If he's simply an illegal alien working as a carpenter and picking up some bucks on the side he wouldn't even be visible to anyone, let alone a desired co-conspirator. No, I think it's pretty obvious that most of the "gang" theories offered up simply would not include Hauptmann.
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