mairi
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Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Oct 11, 2006 14:05:29 GMT -5
Do you think "planned for a year" and "we/our" was a ruse? I'd guess as many as two had to be involved and could have managed, even had the baby lived, especially if the kidnap/ransom exchange was intended to go quickly.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Oct 11, 2006 16:31:26 GMT -5
Mairi....you are right about Gow's id. Dr. Charlie's Mitchell was quoted that...."Betty Gow's ID was not considered reliable" due to the severe decomposition of the skeleton. Essentially Gow recognized the t-shirt, never requested from CJohn by CAL, JFC, Anne, BRK....this shirt could have been cleverly and simply dressed onto another baby to conceal the true identity of the corpse. How would we know that? CAL calling her on the telephone is even more suspicious!
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Post by Michael on Oct 11, 2006 17:16:54 GMT -5
Actually no. In the neighborhood of a year seems to fit and there was no doubt more then one person was involved.
Betty confirmed it was CJr. by using several indentifiers. The blue thread had to be enough for just about anyone who saw heard where it came from.
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Post by pzb63 on Oct 12, 2006 0:56:26 GMT -5
I have wondered about CAL's idenification of the body - from my understanding the autopsy had been performed prior to the identification by CAL...is that correct? If so, wouldn't it have made an ID more difficult as the skull was apart etc, making the counting of teeth etc, a sad and gruesome prospect? Also, if Betty had difficulties making a physical ID prior to autopsy and relied on clothing and threads, imagine how much more difficult it would have been after the autopsy.
I may be completely wrong re the autopsy and condition of the body after, so if anyone can assist it would be much appreciated.
I also understand that there are at least two autopsy reports - do they differ much?
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Post by rick3 on Oct 12, 2006 5:42:22 GMT -5
pzb63--you are onto something here...as more information is assembled and considered the more questions arise rather than the opposite? Ellis Parker for one, still able to solve very difficult murders in 1934 declared that Cal's ID was faulty. Here is a partial list the issues to discuss: - It was not an easy autopsy, and all present, including Pat Candido afterwards, nearly gagged on the "terrific odor". CAL arrives the next day.
- Age, weight and sex undetermined due to missing organs?
- Height discrepancy but Dr. VanIngen brings to the table the height of 29 inches from exam only 10 days prior....the 2'9" fix is an excuse and not a reason for the differences? Dr. VanIngen attends the autopsy. The height of a decomposed skeleton with one leg might be difficult to measure either way?
- Apparently the wrong toes are overlapped. In Charlie it was the small toes, in the corpse it was first and second? One foot is missing?
- A perfectly round hole behind the ear 1/2". Its either a bullet hole or caused by some pointed object in blunt force trauma? Instant excuse....stick poke by Harry Walsh?
- An internal blood clot on the right skull fracture indicating the baby was alive when "something" struck the inside of the skull?
- No blood evidence or powder burns observed?
- Theon Wright axed the question of possible embalming due to the remaining liver and heart? Interesting question in light of the perfectly round skull hole? Possible evidence of medical procedure or hospitalization?
- Failure to preserve any blood, tissues or fluids for toxicology or pathology?
- The severe decomposition not compatible with outside temperatures over 72 days? Where was the body to degrade at temps in the 70s? This severely confuses time of death?
- The circumference of the cranium enlarged but fontenelle open as that of a one year olde? Its hard to say what this tells us? It could be a one year olde as were all the photos on the Wanted Poster? It could be the result of mild rickets? Who knows?
- Dr. VanIngen refused to confirm the identity of the body? He delivered Charlie originally and was his pediatrician?
- No inquest or coroners jury was ordered? Immediate cremation.
- Imprecise cause of death: "skull fractures caused by external violence" is not very specific? Wide open to interpretation especially the skull perforation and multiple skull fractures? Could Charlie have fallen on a stick with a nail in it? How long was the nail?
- Gow used only the blue-threaded t-shirt for ID. But the blue threads were never requested from CJohn? Mitchell quoted as
saying: "Gows identification was not considered valid"? Where does this all leave us? Out in the cold w/o confirmation of the identity of the blackened skeleton? Disconcerting at best? The most objective IDs are the two medical doctors, but they balked--not Gow/CAL under intense emotional pressure? [7 or 8 of CAls German offspring are confirmed by DNA]
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Post by sue75 on Oct 12, 2006 11:10:48 GMT -5
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mairi
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Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Oct 12, 2006 11:45:56 GMT -5
Sue 75~ Any chance that article could be pasted to the board? I couldn't bring it up. Thanx
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Post by sue75 on Oct 12, 2006 13:36:28 GMT -5
Mairi,
This is from the August 30, 1935 Washington Post. I believe this is the front page, too. It's just a preview to the article which shouldn't be that hard to obtain.
Sue
FREE Article Preview Fight Pressed For Lindbergh Baby's Prints Fisher Lays Evasion to Police, Insists He Has Found 'Double.' The Washington Post (1877-1954) - Washington, D.C. Author: By the Associated Press. Date: Aug 30, 1935 Start Page: 1 Document Types: front_page Text Word Count: 580 Hollywood, Aug. 29. -- C. Lloyd Fisher and Vincent A. Marco, attorneys for Richard Bruno Hauptmann, issued a joint statement here today that their investigators have located a child in Long Island under circumstances
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mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Oct 12, 2006 16:44:29 GMT -5
Thank you Sue 75~ I'll try it some more. Or else I can get the gist of it if it's dicussed. Sounds interesting.
Thank you Michael~ for tracking on the down "soud' ref for me. Appreciate it much.
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Post by rick3 on Oct 13, 2006 5:56:51 GMT -5
Sue....this article about defense Atty. Lloyd Fisher is important. The fight for Charlie Jrs fingerprints continued thru Tony Scaduto (Scapegoat) to Wayne D. Jones (Murder by Justice). After Dr. Erasmus Hudson went to all the time and trouble of raising Charlie Jrs latent prints with silver nitrate and making "3 labled sets of 13 prints" noone has apparently been able to either find them or compare them to the fingerprints of the now numerous contenders of the missing Charles Lindbergh Jr. ? Dr. Erasmus Hudson gave his 3 sets of prints for safekeeping to: Evalyn Walsh McClean, JEdgar Hoover, and NJSP. The elated Dr. Hudson declared:
"We now have fingerprints to identify or disqualify without dispute any living (or dead) Lindbergh Baby that might be presented in the future" Jones page 192
Aha, but this was not true, when Jones tried to check the fingerprints of William Simons in the 1980s neither the New Brunswick Museum (the McClean Set) nor the NJSP Archives could find thier set of Charlie Jrs prints! Yet Another Mystery?
Kevin is absolutely, positively, 100% correct.....the important consequence of all the fingerprint evidence in the LKC is that what few prints there were are now all gone MISSING! If the prints were available, likely AFIS would get hits today! But none of this should be surprising: when BRHs fingerprints were not found on the ladder, someone in NJSP headquarters ordered all the fingerprints washed off! (Gardner p. 344)
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Post by sue75 on Oct 13, 2006 11:01:40 GMT -5
I tried to post this last night to Mairi and Rick:
I'll try to reconstruct the post:
The cover story for Time Magazine, December 22, 1975 is about J. Edgar Hoover. Here's the Lindbergh reference:
"The FBI tried to conceal the fact that at first it had recovered the wrong baby's body after the Lindbergh ordeal..."
Now, is this common knowledge, or what? Who was this baby the FBI found?!
A few months ago I was in contact with a detective from the Windsor Police who had done some research on James R. Wilkinson, a foremost fingerprint man from Canada. The webpage says Wilkinson was sent to New Jersey to examine the body of a baby. I also learned that Hoover would often stop over the Willkinson's house for dinner.
Was the baby Wilkinson saw and the one this Time article refers to one and the same baby? Was the FBI's "wrong baby" the right baby? Who was this baby?!
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mairi
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Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Oct 13, 2006 11:43:35 GMT -5
Sue 75~Thanks so much for posting that! This is amazing info!Your detective work is quite impressive.
Rick~ Your post on all the sets of baby's missing fingerprints boggles my mind! How can this be - three safe places- and they are all gone?!? Did the Lindberghs confiscate those, too???
I think all these Lindbergh claimants should try to link up with the German offspring for DNA comparisons, even if only for a half-link. It might get something rolling.
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Post by Michael on Oct 17, 2006 17:23:21 GMT -5
Yes you are correct and Rick is right when he says CAL didn't identify the child until the next day on the 13th. It appears from the trial testimony that Betty came to the morgue on the 12th but immediately after the autopsy. She claimed the formation of the toes/toenails, shape of his nose, the fact he had (16) teeth (4) of which were eyeteeth which were barely showing, the facial features and general appearance. She identified the sewing immediately after it was removed from the body and brought to her at Highfields which was before Cjr. was taken to the morgue. Actually there was only (1) autopsy report which I have posted below. VanIngen viewed the body on the 12th and wrote out his observations the next day which says, in essence, what he saw was consistent with the Lindbergh Baby but its condition made it impossible for him to say positively. hometown.aol.com/mmel71/images/autopsy.jpg
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mairi
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Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Oct 18, 2006 11:52:37 GMT -5
Michael~Am really surprised that Gow id-ed remains after autopsy. I've not seen that whole trial transcript, of course, but it certainly gives a different impression of her Id. Also that the blue thread shirt was brought to her at Highfields for ID. Having witnessed autopsies and the procedures involved, I find it interesting that as many decomposed features as described, remained intact. Counting teeth and the overlapping toes, yes--but the rest......humm-mm? Then again perhaps she was predisposed to recognize what she feared might be the case. Have wondered if that may have come into play with CAL's ID, as well. i.e. finding the corpse of a baby so near the home, the unsuccessful search for the live child,etc
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Post by Michael on Oct 19, 2006 15:48:18 GMT -5
Me too. I was always under the impression it was before until I read the transcripts... It's how I interpret what Mitchell is saying so perhaps someone out there disagrees because there are no shortages of contradictions.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Oct 26, 2006 6:55:15 GMT -5
The accounts of interviews of Violet Sharpe by Harry Walsh in the Jersey Journal are riveting:
Interview #1 [April 18th] "In my interview with VS I found her to be cold, abrupt, defiant and surly individual, who frequently grinned at a question regardless of its importance concerning the investigation or kidnap.
VS said that on the Sunday previous to March 1, while she and her sister Edna were walking along Lydecker Street in Engle wood on thier way to the center of town they made the acquaintance through a flirtation of a young man who passed in an auto.
VS claimed this boy called her on March 1st at 8pm? and requested her to accompany him to a movie show in Englewood--she agreed. She told him to meet her at 8pm on Lydecker Street but.....at 10pm he drove directly to the pantry door on the Morrow Estate!
VS said they went to a movie in Englewood and his name was Ernie who was a bus driver? This Ernie could not be found?
Interview#2 (May after Charlie's body found]--Violet was told to report to Lindbergh's home in Hopewell. The second interview lasted exactly 6 minutes! Her entire body shook and she was not coherent? She maintained her cold sullen attitude but her physical condition was altered for the worse? VS had changed her story to .....the Peanut Grill in Orange NJ where she drank cocktails? A doctor was called to check her state.
Interview #3 (48 hours later) This interview ended after 3 minutes? VS was shown a photo of Ernest Brinkert a cabbie from White Plains, NY and she said YES this was her date to the Peanut Grill on 1 March 32? This Ernie came from the Taxi Card found in Violets room? She said well..."it looked like him". Walsh told VS they would bring Brinkert in for her to ID in person.l
Interview #4 (Friday June 10th) The intent was to bring VS to the police station at Alpine NJ. When told to get ready VS fainted. Everyone headed to Next Day Hill but by the time they got there Violet was pronounced dead.
Walsh:"As a result of what I had learned and her actions at the questionings, plus her suicide, I concluded that this girl was the informant for the kidnaper's of the Lindbergh baby" HW November 1932 Jersey Journal
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Oct 28, 2006 7:13:24 GMT -5
Violet Sharpe--The Plot Thickens! Cross-referencing various authors concerning the interviews of Violet Sharpe bring a confusion of dates?
Gardner: 1st Interview: March 10th Two Newark detectives p103
Walsh: 1st interview: April 18th Jersey Journal Nov 17th 1932?
Gardner: 2nd Interview: "one month later at Englewood" OK April 18th above. But the point should be well taken that Violet started lying before Walsh's interrogations. One month was wasted?
Joyce Milton implies that Violet Sharpe was being protected by Springer/Elizabeth Morrow and doctors at Englewood. So, CAL had to move the next interview to Highfields "to break this standoff"? p.259
May 21-23rd--Next Day Hill Interview w/ Schwartzkopf and CAL This interview was very short by all accounts--but it is important because this is when Violets room was searched at Englewood.
Accounts between even Gardner and Walsh differ as to when Ernie (#1 or #2) called Violet on Tuesday March 1st....1pm or 8pm. There are some discrepancies as to what time Ernie picked Violet up at the Pantry Door.....either 0830 or 10:00pm. And last, what time did Violet get home from the Peanut Grill in Orange NJ? One account says before 11pm that too would be a stretch if she didn't leave until 10PM?
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Post by Michael on Oct 28, 2006 12:38:30 GMT -5
I believe Walsh is relying on his involvement as a matter of perspective. Dr. Gardner's book is probably the best source for all of the times, dates, and places because he took into consideration all of the sources instead of just one.
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Post by acondon on Nov 6, 2006 17:36:50 GMT -5
Hello Michael and all: I didn't know where I should post this info so I guess the mention of Dr. Gardner is a good segway.
Tonight Dr. Gardner and I will be doing the Jeff Rense radio program. I am an emerging infectious disease coordinator for the program and do a monthly radio interview on emerging infectious diseases, especially zoonotic and food and veterinary updates. This is going to be very scarey for me. I can talk about prion disease, mad cows and deer but this, tonight, is going to be very new. Dr. Gardner will be the main interview, I will only give a brief background of my relatives, Uncle Dinny and Dr. Condon. I plan to tell the truth about Uncle Dinny so, I am really nervous. Dinny was not a stupid man, but a man of circumstance. He was a terrible theif and got caught. guess his heart wasn't in it. He did ok bootlegging. Poor Grandma susan, his mother, she was a feverent CAtholic and daily congregant and must have suffered terribly knowing that Dinny was not doing the right thing in life. Of course, epilepsy did have everything to do with his not getting work. He took gran mal seizures and people just did not want "crazy" people around. Anyone who had epilepsy was thought of as crazy.
In any event, Lloyd Gardner will be on at 10pm est. I think Jeff is on stations around the US, Canada, Mexico and Caribbean. I do know you can listen free via internet. rense.com
Pat A very nervous pat
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Post by Michael on Nov 7, 2006 19:38:43 GMT -5
I missed it! Is there a link to the transcript anywhere?
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
Posts: 387
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Post by Aimee on Aug 21, 2013 19:39:38 GMT -5
I have wondered about CAL's idenification of the body - from my understanding the autopsy had been performed prior to the identification by CAL...is that correct? If so, wouldn't it have made an ID more difficult as the skull was apart etc, making the counting of teeth etc, a sad and gruesome prospect? Also, if Betty had difficulties making a physical ID prior to autopsy and relied on clothing and threads, imagine how much more difficult it would have been after the autopsy. I may be completely wrong re the autopsy and condition of the body after, so if anyone can assist it would be much appreciated. I also understand that there are at least two autopsy reports - do they differ much? Does anyone have a copy of a different autopsy other than the one I posted??
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Aimee
Det. Sergeant (FC)
Posts: 387
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Post by Aimee on Sept 6, 2013 16:47:31 GMT -5
[Originally Posted on Thu, Feb 20 2003] by Michael.... ***My research provides me with information that the Morrow New York home was very near this Substation. Maybe its just a coincidence but I felt compelled to mention it.
My question to you Michael is..Did Dwight Jr. live in New York City?? If so..when..what year? Also do you know what year Dwight Jr. was married?? Thank you!
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Post by Michael on Sept 6, 2013 19:44:21 GMT -5
My question to you Michael is..Did Dwight Jr. live in New York City?? If so..when..what year? Also do you know what year Dwight Jr. was married?? Thank you! Off the top of my head I couldn't say whether or not he ever "lived" in NYC. On March 1, 1932 he was supposedly in treatment at a Sanitarium and, so the story goes, he "escaped" and had been missing for several days. He was also attending Amherst University prior to this and graduated in 1933. I believe he was married to Margot Loines in the Spring of 1937 (May I believe) was divorced in 1946 then remarried in 1970 to Nancy Lofton. Here is more: mvgazette.com/obituaries/2013/08/29/margot-wilkie-101-was-devoted-buddhist-actress
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