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Post by Donstonhead on Jan 26, 2009 17:22:05 GMT -5
If you want to see disparaging remarks about the vesica pisces, check out Ripperology. One Ripperologist referred to it as the Vesica Pesci as in Joe Pesci.Unaware was he that Joe Pesci's character in JFK, Oswald's flight instructor, David Ferrie, was a bishop or leader in the Orthodox Old Catholic Church. Here is it's symbol (Veteris means old or as in former times): 
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Post by Michael on Jan 27, 2009 6:57:15 GMT -5
Maybe its just me, but I consider the possibility as the holes being a separate creation then the symbol. If this is the case, then I consider the two ideas may have come from two separate sources then merged together. Let's face it, the holes are what identifies the parties conclusively IF the "symbol" hadn't been leaked.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 27, 2009 7:17:08 GMT -5
I would agree to a point. I think the holes were created independently of the symbols. I don't see even the slightest evidence that they were created by another, though. The holes, symbols, and the writing have a certain consistency about them. Like the ladder, they contain some creativity, but their execution is less than ideal, perhaps even hurried.
If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on improvisation as opposed to preconception for the creation of the signature.
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Post by vovina on Jan 27, 2009 13:56:12 GMT -5
I think that maybe the best hypothesis; nothing like going with the best bet ( LOL ! ). Are the hole sizes indicative of a specific sort of compass to draw the symbol ? For example, my grandfather was a cabinet maker by trade and he had an odd compass, larger than normal, with adjustable components for holding different width pencils to draw on different wood types. The metal point tip was also retractable, presumably for specific wood types as well. This compass dated from the 1920's. Do we have an inventory of Hauptmann's carpentry tools so that we could check for such a compass and compare with the holes/circles in the signature ?
Or were the holes/circles indicative of a mechanical artist's compass of 1910-20's such as a US Patent Attorney, like Whittaker might possess ?
It may be easier to answer these factual questions first before trying to find the " meaning " of the " symbol " - the tortilla is looking more like Jesus, but a tortilla is, after all, just a tortilla !
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kevkon
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Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jan 27, 2009 16:55:37 GMT -5
Refreshing to hear some common sense for a change!
All this talk about the "singnature", I wonder how many have just sat down and made their own? It's really not all that difficult.
I think the other problem is that some are always looking for Jesus in the tortilla. If you look hard enough for something, you will probably find it.
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Post by vovina on Jan 28, 2009 8:25:19 GMT -5
Thank you for the kind remark ! I was also reminded that my Grandfather would use different size milk and cream bottle cork liners when tracing specific size circles with jigsaw work ( these old liners made great " tiddly-wink " game pieces as well ): the nice feature was that different milk / cream liners had uniform circumferences, yet varied by bottle size. Hauptmann could have had easy access to such liners.
So, is there a record of milk delivery to the Hauptmann's just prior to the kidnapping that would give the size bottles and hence, the size of the circles that could be drawn ?
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Post by vovina on Jan 28, 2009 9:28:15 GMT -5
Also, the original " thumbtacks " from the 1920's and 30's came in larger sizes than we are accustomed to today - one can easily envisage Hauptmann whipping out a large size tack, poking the hole, quickly tracing the circle, and repeating the process to get the design on the note.
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Post by Michael on Jan 31, 2009 20:02:44 GMT -5
Leon Ho-age experimented with a "Bakerlite" tube making the bigger Circles and a cork to make the middle one. It looks pretty close.
I have no idea what a Bakerlite is though.....
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 31, 2009 20:45:47 GMT -5
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Post by asmodeus on Feb 1, 2009 13:14:03 GMT -5
The largest and most artistic color reproduction of the ransom note symbol is now on the cover of 15 minutes by Mark Falzini. Wonder why he chose IT for the cover? Lets ask him (...)
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 1, 2009 13:58:25 GMT -5
The Ink Bottles
I found them fascinating to see. What a find!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 1, 2009 14:20:33 GMT -5
Glad you enjoyed them, Mairi. There's plenty more. Two items of particular interest are ink blotters with an amazing variety of design ( some even had a ruler on them) and portable ink wells. The latter can be glass one of which I found is the same diameter of the circles.
asmodeus, maybe because that one looked the best. You know things can be that simple.
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Post by ALP on Feb 2, 2009 20:47:14 GMT -5
From the Hand of Hauptmann:
1. The Nursery Note--no
2. First Ransom Note--maybe
3. Second Ransom note--most similar
4. First Condon Note.....no symbol?
5. Third ransom note....smeared
6. Fourth Ransom Note.....its this one!hmmm...
7. Fifth Ransom Note....no 3leaf clover
8. Sixth Ransom Note....faded and sloppy
9. Seventh Ransom Note.....inked over
10. Eighth Ransom Note......thinly different
11. Ninth Ransom Note....nope not close
12. Bergen Greenhouse.....similar, thinner
13. Boad Nelly Note...no sig?
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Post by rick3 on Feb 4, 2009 8:24:31 GMT -5
At first blush it appears that that Ransom Notes #1,2,3 & 4 had the "three-leafed clover" hole punched in the right position as a group at the same time. But, the Nursery note and notes #5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 did not? Has anyone put forth a plausible theory to explain this dual grouping?
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2009 9:45:35 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Feb 22, 2009 11:16:11 GMT -5
I thought this interesting and that maybe someone else might find it useful: The Many Lives of Herbert O. Yardley |
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2009 16:38:19 GMT -5
According to Dr. Francis C. Nicholas, his theory was that: In Italy there were three interlocking criminal societies, the Mafia, the Camorra and the Mano Negro. [Criminal Syndicalism, Unpublished - page 1] He attributes political corruption and protection to the Mafia. Kidnapping to the Camorra. And Extortion of the rich to the Mano Negro. |
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Post by S Bowl on Oct 24, 2010 18:11:59 GMT -5
Kidnapping could be part of a criminal progression of a professional robber or thief. Hauptmann was a known thief. [Francis Nicholas] attributes political corruption and protection to the Mafia. Kidnapping to the Camorra. QUOTE Michael The Comorra come from Campania, the region of Naples. Being in the shadow of a volcano, you would expect comparatively a lot of culturally-inherent property crime, since the volcano could destroy all the property anyway! Naples is also considered to be the place where the Egyptian mysteries were brought back to England by people like Lord Lytton and allegedly by Roslyn D'Onston. vesica.org/main/biogeometry--interview-with-dr-robert-gilbertS. Bowl. P.S. Ever notice that Roosevelt had his foil in Lindbergh and Nixon had his in Howard Hughes, another aviator. Geography and geometry are huge facets of aviation. Similar to carpentry... How many aviators become president? GW Bush and... almost as many carpenters... |
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Post by Tah on Nov 22, 2010 19:59:51 GMT -5
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Post by rick3 on Dec 5, 2010 22:23:14 GMT -5
Hi TAH....good call/ YES... there is more to it (...) the Circle/ Vesica/ Triangle and Tetracktys (square) are shown in the movie to represent "Pythagorean Medicine". A quick check of The Secret Doctrine by HPB shows additional references to Pythagoras' symbols including: circles, triangels and 47th principal of Euclid. So again we come full circle to Theosophy and those odd questions to Condon by Death House Riley. |
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Post by Michael on Dec 6, 2010 8:14:00 GMT -5
I think this exchange comes from the belief that Condon is involved more then just the innocent intermediary. Next, it includes the information Keyes provided the NJSP then later shared with the Defense.
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Post by rick3 on Dec 24, 2010 11:17:11 GMT -5
TAH: following along logically on our Pythagorean pilgrimage we come logically thru monad, duad, triad, tetrad to the Pentad. - The Pythagoreans called the Pentagram Hugieia, with the combined meaning of health, wholeness and blessings.
- To the ancient Hebrews, the Pentagram was the symbol of Truth and five books of the Pentateuch.
- The Pentagram and its repesentations became the most sacred and secret symbol of the Pythagorean cults.
- In poiint of fact, the Pentagram has also been associated with the Star of Bethleham or the 3 Kings Star which guided the 3 magi to the newborn babe on Christmas...and this Star was shown by the 3 stars on Orions belt (Wayne Hershel).
- So, hohoho and Merry Christmas...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrad_(Greek_philosophy)
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Post by sue75 on Dec 24, 2010 13:46:04 GMT -5
Well, Rick, is it again time to look at the Book of Signs by Rudolph Koch.? (The newspaper accounts say Arthur Koch.) You allude to this book in an earlier post. Condon was accused of having checked this book out of The New York Public Library.
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Post by sue75 on Dec 24, 2010 13:50:38 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on Dec 24, 2010 13:55:21 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on Dec 24, 2010 14:02:40 GMT -5
Read: "In this book is the same symbol used in the Lindbergh notes, and under the symbol is this striking explanation of it: 'The ideal marriage of two airminded people, a child conceived in air, underneath the sky, while the sun was shining, the child to meet with violence.'" news.google.com/newspapers?id=qH9ZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MUkNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1210,4533517&dq=lindbergh+book-of-signs&hl=en |
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Post by sue75 on Dec 24, 2010 14:18:36 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Dec 28, 2010 17:50:42 GMT -5
Good ideas as always Rick. I am not avoiding the subject. I hold several favorites - that each seems just as good as the other. A brand-new idea came to me from a family member of someone who was writing a book but died before it was published. I can seriously say this one has never before been discussed anywhere that I have seen.....
And so I am still researching it.
Not sure if I shared this before but it was Keyes who discovered all of this. He found the book checked out by who he thought was Condon. The Prosecution stood ready with a man named Condax who was to testify it was him and not Condon.
But the definition which Winchell wrote about came from Keyes too. He used it without revealing his source. So Keyes asked for a little ink which prompted Winchell to write to Wilentz calling Keyes a "phony." See how that works? Use his material then undermine his reputation because he wanted a little credit for his discovery.
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Post by rick3 on Dec 28, 2010 19:34:06 GMT -5
Good ideas as always Rick. I am not avoiding the subject. I hold several favorites - that each seems just as good as the other. A brand-new idea came to me from a family member of someone who was writing a book but died before it was published. I can seriously say this one has never before been discussed anywhere that I have seen..... And so I am still researching it. I agree that the game is afoot, and now we can waste less time trying to uberpaint BRH with a 2400 year olde brush. I seriously doubt he was a math/philosophy major in college? Isnt it a bit odd, that the signature appeared in the NYTimes, Readers Digest, Wallers book cover, and more and yet noone ever recognized it...only Mickey Rosner and Owney Madden? [Oxford and Cambridge] I think we should take another look at Paul H. Wendell, didnt he make some clever, yet definitive claim, as to how he created the symbol during interrogation? Wendell and Charlie Schleser have at least one thing in common, they both ratted out the Defense strategy to AG Wilintz...to save thier own necks. [Unless I got them mixed up?] |
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Post by Michael on Dec 30, 2010 7:21:14 GMT -5
While searching for Marvel Parsons I stumbled across this document which originates in McLean's files from the LOC. She employed many to assist her personal efforts to solve this case, and judging from the documents surrounding it in the file I believe this probably came from Hicks - but its just a guess: Attachments:
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