|
Post by mjrichmond on Jun 2, 2006 7:17:18 GMT -5
I would like to hear what everyone thinks about Joseph Perrone and his identification of Hauptmann as the man who gave him the March 12 note.
Mjr
P.S. Thanks, Michael, for opening this folder. ;)
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 2, 2006 19:13:23 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Jun 2, 2006 19:13:23 GMT -5
Here is a little bit I put together some time ago. I still feel its worthy to post:
Joesph A. Perrone was a hard working man who was simply trying to provide for his wife and three children during the depression. He reported for work at his hack stand on 3-12-32. Of course, as history would record, his taxi was hailed by a man on Gun Hill Road and Knox Place. This man did not want a ride but asked Perrone to deliver a note to Dr. Condon. Perrone agreed and acted accordingly.
Oddly, upon delivery of the note, Milton Gaglio came running down Dr. Condon's steps and asked if the note had been given to him at Gun Hill Road and Bainbridge Avenue. Sometime later, Perrone was tracked down by Milton Gaglio, who then quizzed Perrone and told him if Inspector Bruckman were to come looking to interview him that he was to GET OUT OF TOWN for a couple of days. Bewildered by this request, Perrone when contacted by Authorities reported this conversation to which Gaglio flatly denied it ever occurred.
At the Bronx Grand Jury testimony, Perrone told District Attorney Breslin that he would not know the man who gave him the note if he saw him again.
Shortly after this testimony however, Perrone saw Dr. Condon on City Island talking to a man he felt certain was the person who gave him the note to deliver. Perrone reported this sighting to the Police. Detective Grafenecker later told Perrone that they "were on to" Condon and were going to "put the screws to him."
What follows from that point on up until the time Hauptmann is arrested are multiple "identifications" concerning men Perrone believes looks like the fellow who gave him the note - which include but are not limited to the following: Hognell, Gawelczyk, Buck, Chetel, Steiner, Kuchan, Swadba, Kaltenbrunner, Mogel, and Panas - none of which look anything like Hauptmann.
Once Hauptmann is arrested, Perrone was transported to the Greenwich Street Police station by Corp. Leon and Det. Coar who converse amongst themselves (loud enough for Perrone to hear) saying that Hauptmann was guilty, had confessed to the crime, and that those responsible for identification would receive the reward. Once in the Police Station, Perrone was shown a picture of Hauptmann and told by Inspector Lyons that "he was the man". Soon Perrone was brought to Capt. Bennett's office where a line-up consisting of (3) men - Ptl. McNamara, Bruno Richard Hauptmann, and Det. Croak was formed. Perrone was asked who the man was that gave him the note to deliver to Dr. Condon which prompted him to put his hand on Hauptmann's shoulder and identify him.
Agent Sisk was a witness to this, and even Perrone himself would later admit to these conditions being brought upon him by the Police. Was this a legitimate identification?
No way.
|
|
|
Post by mjrichmond on Jun 3, 2006 8:36:24 GMT -5
Personally, I also like the fact that Perrone told the police about Hognell because of his accent. Perrone said that he had the same kind of accent as the man who gave him the note: "...[H]e said he was a Scandinavian and that is why I reported it." (20 May 32 statement)
I still cannot understand why the people who believe Hauptmann guilty claim he was reliable.
Interesting details about the "line-up" by the way. It sounds like it was about as well conducted as the ones Condon and Lindbergh went through. Source for that, please.
Mjr
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Jun 3, 2006 9:17:26 GMT -5
The "3-man" line-up is recorded in Perrone's actual identification of Hauptmann by Det. S.A. McCaskey, NYPD (MOS). An additional source is Ptl. McNamara's statement where he states the line-up consisted of Croak, Hauptmann, and himself.
In 1937 Perrone's statement claimed there were actually "6" men in the line-up. The only explanation I can give for this false statement is that he was trying to make his identification appear to be more legit and avoid the criticism that was being tossed his way by Hoffman, his Staff, and the PI's looking into his identification with a microscope. It was a foolish decision and made him look much worse.
I quickly went through my Perrone folders and found sources for the psychological tactics coming from both Ho-age and Conklin in communications to the Governor. I am certain I have more and will continue to look. I am pretty sure my other source is Sisk but I haven't been able to locate that yet. I do know when I found it that I was pretty sure it was the one Kennedy used in his book but without citation.
|
|
|
Post by carol on Jun 3, 2006 12:54:55 GMT -5
A few years ago on the Bronx Board www.bronxboard.com/Perrone's son Ken posted that Hauptmann was not the man who gave his father the note to take to Condon. Joe Perrone appeared on a WOR Radio program in November 1938 and referred to himself as the "sucker of the case". Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any more information about the program.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 3, 2006 13:06:29 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Jun 3, 2006 13:06:29 GMT -5
I should have both of these items somewhere if anyone is interested. I seem to remember saving those posts but losing some as well so I am not sure I have every exchange.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 3, 2006 13:31:39 GMT -5
Post by carol on Jun 3, 2006 13:31:39 GMT -5
Michael,
Do you have more on the radio program? I think it aired on November 27, but I have no idea who interviewed Perrone, or what the name of the program was.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 4, 2006 11:44:34 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Jun 4, 2006 11:44:34 GMT -5
I do Carol but since its not in my Perrone File then it may be just about anywhere. As of now I just can't find it.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 4, 2006 17:33:41 GMT -5
Post by rick3 on Jun 4, 2006 17:33:41 GMT -5
Joseph Perrone also told police that Henry Liepold "bore a marked resemblence" to the 15 cent fare that took Perrone to the intersection of where CJ(?) gave him the note for jafsie. The latter person actually entered Carl Geisslers store and then came back out to be lost into a crowd. In October 1933 Henry Liepold committed suicide and to police and Federal agents his death was an admission of some guilt. Phylis Liepold, Henrys wife, at some point, bought a train ticket under an assumed name and peeled out for Canada. No ransom money was ever found on them...BUT...this group did lead back to Ralph Hacker....Condons son-in-law! Thru Willie Krippendorf as close associates? Thusly, the trail from JJ Faulkner and the $2900 led wove around to Condons back door right thru Henry Liepold/
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 4, 2006 18:30:11 GMT -5
Post by gismo on Jun 4, 2006 18:30:11 GMT -5
"this group did lead back to Ralph Hacker....Condons son-in-law!" (Rick)
Are you sure that's accurate?
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 4, 2006 20:04:28 GMT -5
Post by rick3 on Jun 4, 2006 20:04:28 GMT -5
aHA/ between Scaduto >>>> Gardner Hackers first name changes to "Rudolf" thus breaking the Full Circle connection to Condon! "Condon found Innosent"! (good observation)
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Jun 6, 2006 5:44:53 GMT -5
This was something Lt. Finn was onto and repeated in A&M's book. As always, Dr. Gardner's book does a great job in straightening out the facts.
|
|
|
Perrone
May 18, 2007 21:45:24 GMT -5
Post by rmc1971 on May 18, 2007 21:45:24 GMT -5
It seems the only real negative about Perrone is that he probably ID'd as many people as the guy who gave him the ransom note as Condon did ID'ing Cemetery John's. I would guess he wanted to stay in the loop as far as the reward money went - not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Although to his credit some points of Perrone's description did stay constant throughout - which IMO adds credibility to his statements.
|
|
|
Perrone
May 19, 2007 7:40:48 GMT -5
Post by Michael on May 19, 2007 7:40:48 GMT -5
Perrone, in my opinion, was very sincere in the beginning. His identifying the man as speaking with Condon is not a safe move under any circumstances and I'd like to believe it because it makes sense. The other identifications scare me away from that position though. For example, he followed and chased down Chetel like a Cop might do. This proves to me that he was either acting in good faith OR started to lose his mind a little. Chetel neither looked anything like Hauptmann nor his own description.
In several of the reports it was noted that Perrone was "unreliable" as a witness.
I think one of the things that's assumed is that Perrone dealt with the same guy Condon supposedly did. That is, CJ was the guy who flagged him down. I am not so sure about that.
Personally, while money mattered, I don't think that was his sole motivation. He did seem to really want to help. The other issue was that he was also fearful, and the Police seemed to be his ally. So when they asked him to do something he probably felt as though he had no choice.
What exactly do you mean here?
|
|
|
Perrone
May 19, 2007 11:59:26 GMT -5
Post by rmc1971 on May 19, 2007 11:59:26 GMT -5
What exactly do you mean here? I' don't have the book on me to remember which exact features (eyes, chin, etc.), but there are a couple of facial features that were pretty constant throughout in Perrone's description. I can find that during the week and reply what they were - sorry about the confusion. What I meant was that although he may have been running down suspects who didn't look like Hauptmann, those features in his descriptions to police remained relatively constant. Unlike Condon's descriptions, which were all over the map.
|
|
|
Perrone
May 20, 2007 10:45:20 GMT -5
Post by Michael on May 20, 2007 10:45:20 GMT -5
Now I understand. You don't have to search for it. I have a great compilation of these descriptions made by both Condon and Perrone put together by Leon Ho-age. When I get time I'll go through them to see if there might be some differences among Perrone's.
What bothers me the most is when someone gives a description but then chases down someone who doesn't fit it. Chetel was taken to Condon on two separate occasions because Perrone was so sure he was the man.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jul 9, 2009 15:14:14 GMT -5
Post by jdanniel on Jul 9, 2009 15:14:14 GMT -5
A few years ago on the Bronx Board www.bronxboard.com/Perrone's son Ken posted that Hauptmann was not the man who gave his father the note to take to Condon. I haven't seen that thread yet, but I wonder how his son would know that. Jd
|
|
|
Perrone
Jul 10, 2009 6:07:13 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Jul 10, 2009 6:07:13 GMT -5
From his other posts on that board which I have read it seems they did quite a lot together and had a great Father/Son relationship. And so it would be my assumption that his Father told him that. There is a lot of material in which Joe Perrone himself would later claim he was "played." I think there's much to be learned here.
|
|
mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
|
Perrone
Feb 24, 2010 19:40:49 GMT -5
Post by mairi on Feb 24, 2010 19:40:49 GMT -5
Re: (to Perrone) Paglio's specification of Gun Hill road and Bainbridge Ave Has anyone seen anything of significance that relates to those streets? A what or a who--especially a who? It strikes me as quite peculiar. What in the world do you suppose Paglio had in mind?
|
|
|
Perrone
Feb 25, 2010 7:01:52 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2010 7:01:52 GMT -5
Really good observation Mairi.
The Police & FBI made it too. They asked Gaglio about it, he gave the usual response, then it seems to drop off the radar. It seems too important to fall through the cracks like that but it appears thats what happened.
It seems to indicate he had prior knowledge about it when there was no reason he would. Or, in the alternative, someone was lying about him making that comment. So unless you believe it was "mis-remembered" about him saying that - then we are looking at only (2) options.
|
|
|
Perrone
Feb 27, 2010 14:29:17 GMT -5
Post by wolf2 on Feb 27, 2010 14:29:17 GMT -5
i knew perrones son in law before he died.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jun 2, 2011 17:01:09 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Jun 2, 2011 17:01:09 GMT -5
A couple of people identified by Perrone "BH" (Before Hauptmann) Do they look like him?:
|
|
|
Perrone
Oct 2, 2012 16:30:43 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Oct 2, 2012 16:30:43 GMT -5
Here is the report I referenced all the years ago written by the man now made famous by the Pawn Stars Episode (Leon Ho-age): Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by P Perrone on Jul 23, 2014 21:33:45 GMT -5
I am one of Joseph Perrone's grandchildren. I never talked with him about the case (sadly he died of lung cancer when I was very young) but family "lore" is as follows:
1. Grandpa did believe he id'd the correct man; 2. Supposedly the police had a sketch artist talk to Grandpa after he delivered the note - and though I have never seen reference to the sketch, family members believed it looked like Hauptmann; 3. I was told there were 2 line ups with the NYPD- in the first Grandpa did not id anyone because he was not 100% certain. In the second he id'd Hauptmann. FYI both my Dad and Uncle Kenny were NY cops - my Dad always thought betw the line ups the cops "encouraged" his Dad to id Hauptmann with statements that they "had the guy", etc. 4. I was told that Hauptmann first asked the fare to be taken to Condon's home, but balked at the cost. He then agreed to a lower fare to have the note delivered, and gave such a good tip that at some point in the evening Grandpa mentioned it to a follow cab driver. 4. Not that this relates to his testimony - but family members were always upset at newspapers that highlighted Grandpa's Italian heritage, implying he had dark skin. Grandpa was born in the US and a proud Army veteran.
Sadly, most family members who would have actual memories are now deceased - Uncle Kenny is still alive and there is one cousin who may have information from our Aunt Gloria, Grandpa's oldest child.
|
|
|
Perrone
Jul 24, 2014 14:04:33 GMT -5
Post by romeo12 on Jul 24, 2014 14:04:33 GMT -5
hi p perrone, I live on long island and a number of years ago I met joe perrones son in law at a bar. I don't know which daughter he was married to and I forgot his name. I do know his wife had died
|
|
|
Perrone
Jul 26, 2014 6:25:51 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Jul 26, 2014 6:25:51 GMT -5
I am one of Joseph Perrone's grandchildren. I never talked with him about the case (sadly he died of lung cancer when I was very young)... Our generation had the luxury of hearing about it from those who were around, but the curse of not knowing what to ask until it was too late. I appreciate your post and please jump in with any thoughts you have.
|
|
|
Perrone
Aug 8, 2014 11:27:33 GMT -5
Post by johno on Aug 8, 2014 11:27:33 GMT -5
I am one of Joseph Perrone's grandchildren. I never talked with him about the case (sadly he died of lung cancer when I was very young) but family "lore" is as follows: 1. Grandpa did believe he id'd the correct man; 2. Supposedly the police had a sketch artist talk to Grandpa after he delivered the note - and though I have never seen reference to the sketch, family members believed it looked like Hauptmann; 3. I was told there were 2 line ups with the NYPD- in the first Grandpa did not id anyone because he was not 100% certain. In the second he id'd Hauptmann. FYI both my Dad and Uncle Kenny were NY cops - my Dad always thought betw the line ups the cops "encouraged" his Dad to id Hauptmann with statements that they "had the guy", etc. 4. I was told that Hauptmann first asked the fare to be taken to Condon's home, but balked at the cost. He then agreed to a lower fare to have the note delivered, and gave such a good tip that at some point in the evening Grandpa mentioned it to a follow cab driver. 4. Not that this relates to his testimony - but family members were always upset at newspapers that highlighted Grandpa's Italian heritage, implying he had dark skin. Grandpa was born in the US and a proud Army veteran. Sadly, most family members who would have actual memories are now deceased - Uncle Kenny is still alive and there is one cousin who may have information from our Aunt Gloria, Grandpa's oldest child.
|
|
|
Perrone
Aug 8, 2014 11:30:56 GMT -5
Post by johno on Aug 8, 2014 11:30:56 GMT -5
If it is the police sketch I have seen it does look a bit like Hauptmann...at least as much as it looks like Knoll. It also looks a bit like the two other guys he identified from photos.
So, suggestive but in itself inconclusive evidence that Hauptmann gave Perrone the note.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Oct 2, 2019 8:25:11 GMT -5
Since the above file dropped off due to storage, I wanted to re-add it here for everyone to see (including guests): imgur.com/gwZRRLp
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 9:37:56 GMT -5
So glad that you reposted this, Michael. I think it shows that Perrone did not get a good enough look at the man who gave him that note the night of March 12, 1932 if he could identify two entirely different looking men as the note giver!
I think since Condon said no to both these men as being Cemetery John, I suppose we are to assume that the note giver man seen by Perrone and the man Condon met that night for the Woodlawn Cemetery meeting were not the same man at all.
Also important to note is that neither of these men look at all like Richard Hauptmann!
|
|