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Post by Michael on Feb 9, 2008 10:07:23 GMT -5
Hello.
That information was obtained from the NJSP Archives in West Trention, NJ.
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Post by uscg on Feb 10, 2008 17:02:32 GMT -5
(Deleted by request)
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Post by Michael on Feb 11, 2008 18:21:17 GMT -5
Definitely associated with the case. You may want to visit the NJSP Archives. There's a bunch on him there. Or if you can't, I would recommend contacting the Archivist Mark Falzini. Web Site: www.njspmuseum.org/index.htmlMark W. Falzini Archivist NJ State Police Museum 609-882-2000 I know there's a good amount on him in Governor Hoffman's files. I also have a file on him myself. Could you direct me to the place in the thread where he is mentioned?
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Post by uscg on Feb 11, 2008 21:14:48 GMT -5
(Deleted by request)
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 4, 2008 10:38:54 GMT -5
You guys have probably checked out & discussed this long ago but I could find nothing about it on the board. In fact, I could find nothing about it anywhere for that matter. But was the German , female servant who was living with the Condon's in 1920 ever checked out? Her name was Loiusa Burgot (writing was unclear so maybe last half of name end differently. But I compared handwriting with other entries & the letters ended up looking as if spelled "Burgot" the most). Listed as being born born in Germany so of course I started to speculate madly that perhaps here was a possible connection to the Germans involved in this case.
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 4, 2008 12:46:42 GMT -5
I was mistaken in my post above. The German servant girl who lived with the Condon's was in 1910, not 1920. And her name was "Louise" rather than Louisa. And I am having a lot of trouble making out the last constant in the surname, but the first part is definitely "B U R G U". Care to play Jeopardy, anyone? grin
Anyway, I'm sure this has already been researched. And probably beaten to death. But the Condon's did not strike me as the type to have servants at all. Much less a German servant. Why not Irish since the Condon's were only one generation away from Ireland anyway. This seems more logical to me. I need to call my cousin again, whose last name is Condon, & has John F Condon on her family tree.
And I thought the Condon's had lived forever on Decatur? My info clearly states he & his family lived on "Washington St". Not Decatur. Do we know when they actually moved to Decatur St?
And Mrs Condon's name is listed as "Mary", not Myra. Perhaps just to differentiate from the daughter who is listed as "Myra".
I think that JAFSIE just cannot be "investigated" enough. He has always seemed to be THE strangest character out of this case that is filled with strange characters.
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Post by rick3 on Mar 5, 2008 12:40:00 GMT -5
Hello Dena....yes you are right! We cant really know too much about Condon-- Noso or the dead baby for that matter. Good job ferreting out new leads!
One would have to assume that JFC Condon knows nearly everyone in the LKH? Cemetary John (Scandanavian sailor/Fisch) and the ladder/box maker (Abe Samuelsohn) and even Mary Cerrita from the Temple? eg the Tuckahoe lady at the bazaar?
I read recently that Condon had one daughter and two sons? Hows acome the latters names never come up and where they live? Maybe we can find them too if we are looking/
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Mar 6, 2008 7:02:48 GMT -5
What about the kidnap ladder builder/ note writer/ money hoarder/ and the only person we know financially benefited from the crime? Where in your large circle of suspects does Hauptmann fit in? Your theory would require that BRH and Condon were well acquainted prior to the crime. Surely there must be some evidence of this.
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 6, 2008 10:46:28 GMT -5
Im sure looking for evidence that JFC & BRH knew each other. Whether I find it or not is a whole other matter. Condon had a young German servant in his household in 1910. Im seeing what I can find out about that. Tenuous at best but there surely is a link somewhere over the years. Maybe JFC knew Hauptman through one of his neighbors. Im pursuing that angle as well. Of course, JFC was such a social butterfly they could have met anywhere & there would not neccessarily be a trail. And because of all the students he had over the years the amount of people he came into contact with was phenomenal. Of course Noso has to also fit in here somewhere. And since Noso sued JFC we know they had to have known each other. Or have had some sort of business relationship at one point. It seemed kind of foolish to me that Noso would call attention to himself by suing JFC. Bringing attention on both of them.
Does anyone happen to have the documents or know anything more about this lawsuit?
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Post by A Condon on Mar 9, 2008 8:06:39 GMT -5
I am not really sure where I should post this but since the item of real interest is regarding Hildegard Alexander who stated at trial she saw a man who looked like Hauptmann shadowing Condon at Bronx railway station I posted here. Posting photos of news clippings including the one of Ms/Mrs. Alexander. Pat Doyle There are interesting photos of news clippings at: updigit.uproc.lib.mi.us/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/WWilliams&CISOPTR=66&REC=10
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 9, 2008 11:16:34 GMT -5
To ACONDON The scrapbooks on this link are incredible. Another thing I had never seen before. Mrs Alexander -very interesting something to look into deeper. I believe in looking at every tiny little clue or witness -no matter how seeming unimportant it may seem at the time. A homocide cop told me a couple of years ago that that is the way a lot of cases get solved. One little piece that might have seemed unimportant might make it all fit together. Of course, we weren't talking about the Lindbergh case when he told me this though. lol
Dena
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Post by A Condon on Mar 10, 2008 8:03:25 GMT -5
To ACONDON The scrapbooks on this link are incredible. Another thing I had never seen before. Mrs Alexander -very interesting something to look into deeper. I believe in looking at every tiny little clue or witness -no matter how seeming unimportant it may seem at the time. A homocide cop told me a couple of years ago that that is the way a lot of cases get solved. One little piece that might have seemed unimportant might make it all fit together. Of course, we weren't talking about the Lindbergh case when he told me this though. lol Dena Hello Dena: I think I read that Ms. Alexander might have made up the story for publicity as she was an "aspiring" actress. Then again, it is hard to say. I do think that finding out more about her and what she may have seen or not seen might be helpful. ...and you are correct about seemingly unimportant clues. Pat a not feeling too good Pat with the flu!
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Post by Michael on Mar 10, 2008 9:23:12 GMT -5
Hi Pat.
I have had something for about a week now. Not sure if its the flu or what but I'm not feeling so hot either.....Hope you feel better soon.
Alexander is a weird one.
She kind of "pops" out of no where and doesn't seem too reliable. There very little in the files about her and later, Hoffman completely ignores her which is something else that I find strange. It doesn't seem like anyone believed her for the reasons you state, however, the Prosecution finds the need to use her anyway. It's a curious development that I have never been able to understand. Then Condon grandstands for the press saying he didn't believe her either.
If she's telling the truth then I believe it may actually be evidence the two were aware of each other previously in some way.
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Post by uscg on Mar 10, 2008 20:19:38 GMT -5
(Deleted by request)
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 13, 2008 3:54:29 GMT -5
While I have never been able to follow along about the canoes that seem to figure into the lives of some of the players in the LKC, I know that it seems to have been a big sport in NYC. Does anyone happen to know if Condon or Hauptmann belonged to any canoe clubs? Or frequented any certain canoe landings etc?
Because I have learned that the man who owned 537 West 149th was not only into canoes in a big way but he was actually at one point "Commodore" of the, ironically enough, "Knickerbocker Canoe Club".
Could any of the canoe enthusiasts who were players in this case possibly have become acquainted with the owner of the Plymouth Apartments through their canoeing activities?
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Mar 13, 2008 6:53:04 GMT -5
Good find Dena! One thing , which you may already know but others may not, is that the canoe clubs were precursors to what are now yacht clubs. In fact the canoes that you are referring to were actually small sailing craft and so it was a very popular form of recreation at the time. I am pretty sure the Knickerbocker club still exists.
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 13, 2008 11:24:12 GMT -5
Thanks, Kev. Actually, it DOES still exist. lol And it does seem to have a lot of crossover with yacht clubs. Which puzzled me. I was perplexed as to what a yacht & a canoe have in common. But it makes sense if its not a canoe in the usual sense. I think canoe & I think one person paddling around in a ...well, you know, a classic canoe. I thought it must just be an Easterner thing. Now the owner of Plymouth Apts, Payne Kretzmer, was really into this . I saw Kretzner's name several times in reference to canoe/yacht clubs. And he was a VERY odd duck. However, I just don't think he needed the money from a kidnapping. But Payne had "Attendants" who looked after him. Including family members. And these attendants had these ties to Englewood, NJ. When Kretzner was having a bad spell, he would be sent to Englewood NJ to "recover". Although not all of the Kretzners I found lived in Englewood proper. But it still struck me as small world again. (I got this from the FBI book. Which I am going to order today). I mentioned on another post somewhere that some of these NJ Kretzmer's, although not living in Englewood, lived several houses away from some Geissler's. Which could be a real coincidence. But the name Kretzner is very unusual. I am finding the name Geissler is not as common as I thought it would be as well. Im trying to est. a link between the NJ Kretzners to the Plymouth Apt Kretzners. And the Kretzner's neighbors, the Geisslers, to the Geisslers at the Plymouth Apts, too of course. But even if I can establish that these NJ Geisslers & Kretzner's were both kin to 537 West 149 tenants, would it neccessarily mean anything? Im wish I were better at statistics. To figure out the odds on these being actual coincidences or "coincidences". LOL And if this could mean anything, or nothing at all. I'm glad theres a board for me to post to ask others opinions.
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Post by acondon on Mar 16, 2008 5:54:52 GMT -5
Definitely associated with the case. You may want to visit the NJSP Archives. There's a bunch on him there. Or if you can't, I would recommend contacting the Archivist Mark Falzini. Web Site: www.njspmuseum.org/index.htmlMark W. Falzini Archivist NJ State Police Museum 609-882-2000 I know there's a good amount on him in Governor Hoffman's files. I also have a file on him myself. Could you direct me to the place in the thread where he is mentioned? Hello: I, too, am a relative of Dr. Condon. He was my Great Grandmother's first cousin. His mother and my Great Grandmother's father were siblings. I recently found a couple of relatives related to Joseph Condon, Dr. Condon's youngest brother. Thank you, Patricia Doyle BTW my Great Grandmother was Susan Conlin Doyle married to Dennis Doyle Sr. and who, at one time lived on Mayflower Ave. Bronx, NY near St. Raymond's cemetery.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Joe on Mar 16, 2008 8:53:14 GMT -5
Dena, when you say ironically "Knickerbocker Canoe Club," I believe you're making a reference to the name of Fisch's failed company, "The Knickerbocker Pie Company." I'm kind of wondering if Fisch or one of his partners at the time, might have been influenced by the name or vice versa, of course depending on when each was founded. Do you happen to know the dates? Thoughts of Fisch's gambling habits, the card games in the basement of the Plymouth Apartments, the dumbwaiter with the name "Faulkner," Nosovitsky's (purportedly JJ Faulkner) failed tire business / scam, Plymouth superintendent Duane Baker's also talking about wholesaling tires start swirling around when I hear another coincidence like this.. just a little Sunday morning tabloid speculation. But I'm sure stranger things have happened!
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 16, 2008 12:07:24 GMT -5
That's exactly what I meant, Joe. lol It appears to have been around since at least 1912, maybe even earlier, but I will have to double check on my dates. And Payne Kretzmer, having been the owner of Plymouth Apts, would of course been Duane Bacons employer. I found out about this by researching Payne Kretzmer & found out at one time he had been known as the Knickerbocker Canoe Club's "Admiral". And it is still in existence today but now its the "Knickerbocker Yacht club". That was the thing that had puzzled me so until Kev had explained that these "canoes" were actually small little sailing vessels. Until then I had not been able to figure out why all of these New Yorkers had been paddling all over New York in canoes. And how one could possibly equate a canoe with a yacht. I had thought that was just the oddest thing. Even for 1932 New Yorkers. lol
And speaking of tire companies, I found this last week and thought there might perhaps have been a connection. Maybe not, but after all of these years I figure we take whatever "connections" we can find & check them out. ;D
When Noso entered the US on 2 March 1920, coming from Liverpool on the SS Celtic,there was a man only a couple of lines above him whose name was "James Duncan Keay". His residence prior to entering the US was listed as " Ceylon, Colombo". (I thought that was wrong but printed out & stared at it all day & I believe thats what it reads). Mr Keay's final destination was listed as Akron, Ohio, and his occupation was listed as "Rubber Manufacturer". The thing I found interesting was that the company Mr Keay listed as his employer was the "Good Year Tyre & Rubber company". Hadn't Noso at one time supposedly been involved with this same company? I can't remember the details now. Maybe he had just used the name "Goodyear Tire" for a scam of his. Maybe Noso had got this idea from Mr Keay. I have been unable to find out for sure but as the names were not in alphabetical order on this (or any other) manifest I think it might mean that Noso & Keay had adjoining cabins. I know that Noso was traveling as a Dr, but I would assume that as a "physician" he was accorded much better treatment than the average SS Celtic employee was, hence his cabin was located amongst the passengers. But honestly, Im just guessing at this.
And until I read your post I had not been aware that Duane Bacon had also been talking about selling wholesale tires.
And I love a little Sunday tabloid speculation. Oh heck, who am I kidding-I love a little "tabloid speculation" every day of the week. LOL
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 24, 2008 19:11:46 GMT -5
For those of you who haven't seen Jafsie in action: www.youtube.com/v/DZY0zaBJSxM&hl=en"></param><param (youtube video) I had not seen Condon in this old footage before today. His testimony is riveting. He sure does give a dramatic pause before indentifying Hauptmann. I totally can see for myself why people thought of him as a ham.
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dena
Detective
Posts: 129
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Post by dena on Mar 26, 2008 13:15:53 GMT -5
I just read in a newspaper article from 10 January 1935 that previous to the kidnapping a "John Condon" checked out a book on symbols from the library. When Reilly questioned Condon under oath he of course denied that it was him. This makes me want to scream. I could not believe my eyes. Did the investigators think it was some other John Condon besides Jafsie who had just happened to check out a book on symbols that contained the symbol in the ransom letter? Is this TRUE? I think I should almost prefer it be some unfounded rumor because if true & this was not investigated it means...I dont know WHAT it means. I guess It means this investigation was even more poorly done that I had thought. If this is true, that a "John Condon" checked this book on symbology out, how could any investigator in GOOD FAITH not appreciate the significance of this? How could this be ignored? If accurate, did they write it off as being a different "John Condon"? I cannot believe that all the members of law enforcement working on this case would go along with this nonsense.
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Post by Michael on Apr 15, 2008 19:37:53 GMT -5
For the purposes of trying to follow John Condon's Bronx testimony I am going to separate it so that it can be better understood.... ....and the man inside the hedge said,
"here have you got the money"
"no, I didn't know where you were going to be here or not. I have no evidence, I could not give it to you."
"where is it"
"up in the automobile"
"get it"
"I can't get it without a receipt" my object was in that was to see the handwriting,
"well I didn't get any receipt" "but I could get that in two minutes" "go and get the money"
"I shall so I went to Colonel Lindbergh, before I went there I said say it is terrible, it is simply terrible, the man had been brained and in these times of depression I think it is a scandal and a shame to persecute a man like that, why he is brained, those were the words Colonel Lindbergh used to me down to his house when I made up my mind to do the best I could
"go and get the money and since it is so hard to get I suppose if we cannot get 70 I will take 50"
naturally I felt happy over that, then I went back to the Colonel and he handed the $70,000 "Colonel I tried to do you a little favor" I said, " I am told that your boy will be returned if I can give them $50,000. (John Condon Bronx Grand Jury Testimony 5-20-32 (p3)) Does anyone else have any problems with this account? Are we really to believe that "John" was so easily persuaded not to take $70,000? To not only come supposedly unprepared with a "receipt" but to know exactly what Condon wanted and to be able to get it in "2 minutes?" Something isn't right here.
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mairi
Lieutenant
Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on Apr 15, 2008 20:26:05 GMT -5
Hi Michael~~~~Just read your last post. Thanx for that and I liked the way you set it up. But now what the hey does the "brained" part mean? ? About the only thing I can opine about accepting the 50 thousand so readily is that maybe he/they were in a panic (knowing baby might be found any minute) and grabbed the $$$$'s and ran(?) (I'd like to brain Condon!!)
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Apr 16, 2008 5:50:42 GMT -5
brained Adj. Extreme drug intoxication, affecting the mental faculties.
Slang from that time, basically someone with some screws loose.
I would agree with Mairi . 50k in the hand is worth 70k in the bush at Hopewell.
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Post by Michael on Apr 16, 2008 5:53:40 GMT -5
When I first read this I was under the impression it was a typo for "drained"... that makes the most sense, however its in the transcripts as "brained" in both places so it could be an expression of some sort.
(Well I can see it might be since Kevin and I were posting at the same time - see above)
The above are just two examples. To me its indicative of John and Condon being on "the same page" so I can't help but think its Condon's invention or that there was some pre-arranged deal between Condon and these Fellows before this drop. After further discussion about this, if there is any, I will post some more of them.
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Post by Michael on Apr 16, 2008 5:56:44 GMT -5
Sure but don't you find the reasoning absurd? Suddenly the Gang cares about Lindbergh?
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Apr 16, 2008 6:19:37 GMT -5
Yes and no. I don't know that any of us can put ourselves in CJ's shoes, not really anyway. But, if I was holding a bluff hand and every meeting brought me closer to being discovered, I think that I would agree to almost anything, even 10K. I also look at this in another way as well which I know others don't. I believe that the kidnapping was, at the very least, not a crime that was planned as it happened. So additionally I believe that getting any money out of this whole affair is a huge gain and salvages a very bad situation.
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Post by sue75 on May 31, 2008 19:50:48 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Jun 1, 2008 8:23:31 GMT -5
Good find Sue!
I wish we had a source for this church connection other then Wright's book...
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