mairi
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Posts: 548
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Post by mairi on May 11, 2006 16:30:58 GMT -5
Hi ~ New member, first post. My thinking on JFC is if we keep in mind his ego needs as being the grand hero who restores the baby to it's parents, that he wants to hold onto centre stage, perhaps we can wade through some of his tales. There was something I read and hope it's accurate, that when he went to the first RBH line upand asked 4 people to stand forward, he did check the hands of the 4. Since he had already mentioned CJ having a fleshy/lumpy thumb I'm inclined to think it may have been one of the times he told the truth. Might not checking the hands have been a hollow/nothing gesture unless there was some truth there. Yep, you may have guessed my next thought. Might a fur "cutter" have a thumb like that?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 11, 2006 16:56:19 GMT -5
Do we have any fur cutters out there who can answer this?
I know from experience that prolonged hand sawing can cause it.
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Post by Michael on May 11, 2006 19:19:13 GMT -5
Hello Mairi and thanks for getting into the mix. Condon called it the "mutton chop hand" and that it was the most prominent feature. There was a "fleshy development" at the base of the thumb on the left hand. Then he makes one of the most interesting comments ever in a notation on his drawing of this 'development' mentioned in Agent Sisk's report: Just as if disease, such as a pulmonary inroad would cause Now if Condon is telling the truth his comment I post above seems in line with your suggestion. Like Kevin, I am not a Fur Cutter and would have no idea. I do agree with Kevin that someone who wields a saw could develop a callus over time, however we must consider there was none there when Condon looked and that Hauptmann was right handed.
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Post by wcollins on May 12, 2006 8:47:22 GMT -5
Condon misdiagnosed the accent, presumably, unless he was being deceitful for a particular reason. He pulls out this diagnosis of pulmonary problems from his meeting with CJ -- and, at the time, comments on coughing to support it. Then that disappears. One might conclude that he is doing all he can to mislead people away like dragging a bloody tail (or tale)across the trail.
The more I read about the case, the more I think Harry Walsh had him -- but not long enough.
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Post by for marai on May 13, 2006 18:45:44 GMT -5
condon first came up with this lump idea after spotting a print on the window sill in the baby's room and sure enough when he met with CJ he discovered that same characteristic just as he had expected! never mind that testing hadn't revealed any prints in the nursery but super Jafsie could spot one with his 70 -some yr old eyes. I dont think the old geyser knew how to tell the truth.
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Post by rickIII Skeptic2 on May 13, 2006 22:16:16 GMT -5
Formarai: Hiring on Buffoonery Condon as the go-between pretty much eliminates any serious efforts to insure Charlies safe return and proves the Hoax. If Charlies chances were low before, they are zero now. As summer theater, JFC would be hugely entertaining, but to negotiate the return of your first borne smacks of insanity. First, JFC places his ad in the Bronx News, before the ink dries he has hooked the gang. He calls Rosner disquised as CAL and proves the lie with his description of The Sign of the Mafia "without even opening the note"? Next, hes staying over in the Nursery, French kissing the crib pins and pocketing Charlies toys. Although Kelly and Hudson find "no prints" JFC spys the matching thumb lump print with his Luminol Vision! CAL probably never dreamed he could hook such a big Fool? And in only One Week too!
AS for the gloves, wouldnt it be simpler just to wipe the ladder down with alcohol/kerosene after building it carefully with bare hands. After all its a $50,000 ladder. Someone smart enough to wipe down an entire nursery should be able to wipe down a ladder. Isnt it hard to imagine someone missing the fact that all the Lindbergh ransom money had its serial numbers in all the NYC papers? AFter all they found Jafsies ad in 24 hours. If Charlie had fallen off the ladder at Highfields, i think it would have been smarter to just leave him outside with the ladder and chisel and walk away a little poorer, but wiser.
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Post by Michael on May 14, 2006 10:07:57 GMT -5
WC,
Your post above is a great example of putting 2 + 2 together! I couldn't agree more concerning the "Amateur" angle. The Breckenridge point is also very solid. They were dealing with him directly then suddenly they're not.
It's a good point to ask: "what happened?"
But you go even a step further and give us a possibility to consider. Bravo.
We also simply must consider what is printed in Dr. Gardner's book (p. 408) concerning his meeting with Fisch. This also seems to have occurred around the same time. How do we account for these coincidences?
The only problem I have is the Police, and Owney Madden, not being able to extract any information whatsoever from these "mystics" even under wire-tap and heavy surveillance. Not one iota of evidence was produced.
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Post by gary on May 15, 2006 9:47:48 GMT -5
I believe Condon was known and brought in by at least one person in this gang to do exactly what he did. Michael May 10th _________________________________________________ What is very disturbing to me to accompany the above is Condon's account of a mysterious woman that he dare not mentions the name of. This mysterious woman I bring up has written a letter to Condon that inspires him to visit the home of Al Capone to bring great news. Is this the same woman that he mentions that inspired him to get involved in the case or has this woman been a crutch of reason why he moves in the directions he goes. Why might it seem Condon is embracing someone like Capone when he was so outspoken in disgust of such characters. We understand the kidnapping hurt organized crime and their business. Could there have been a organized crime struggle between Capone and his opponents that involves the kidnapping?
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Post by wcollins on May 15, 2006 10:35:23 GMT -5
Gary, I think we have to consider that -- from time to time -- Condon was actually losing it. I am sure Wilentz prayed to high heaven that he not go off while on the stand. He nearly did several times. Did anyone recognize how bad Condon really was? Probably not, or, rather, they could not. Despite all the different fairy tales he told (remember once he even said that the man at St Raymonds asked him if he would like to meet the real Cemetery John; then there is that story about being held captive on board a boat, etc.), he had to be put on the stand, as he was the only person to have had contact with CJ (and, given his tendency to see strange things in the singnature, and his fascination with puzzles, have you noticed that CJ is a reversal of JC), and therefore essential to the conviction. Without Condon the forensic evidence in front of that jury would not have been enough. (Pace all those who know what jurors said about that evidence afterwards, it was Condon who drove the nail into the conviction).
Having said that, it doesn't necessarily follow that Condon was wrong in his identification. But think what a competent defense attorney would have done -- always assuming that someone besides Judge Trenchard was on the bench. It remains for discussion, aside from the ID, exactly how Condon got into the case, exactly what he was told by CJ, and the mystery woman at the bazaar. Remember Hitchcock's "The Man Who Knew Too Much?" Condon is the man who knew too little and too much at the same time.
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Post by gary on May 15, 2006 11:49:14 GMT -5
Hi Mr Collins,
It doesn't take much to CONSIDER he was losing it . I am with you there. At the same time it is worthy to consider all accounts including the reasons why Walsh and others in the investigation held Condon in great suspicion. Actually on the stand he came through answering his non identification of Hauptmann well enough that the jury believed him. I think the prosecution feared a Condon contradiction could foil the case. It seems he came through when the heat was on which spells out to me he intelligently could get out of the jams he got in . If the telephone number found in Hauptmann's closet is true, it may be as much incriminating for Condon as Hauptmann. By the way how was it that Condon's number was an older telephone number that was only remotely known and this was the number written? My guess is Condon was odd but mistakenly interpreted as "losing it". For if he was losing it in 1932 he would have been long gone by 1934-35.
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Post by rick3 Trooper2 on May 16, 2006 4:03:47 GMT -5
Gary, these are good points. it looks like Condon is holding all kinds of strings together while at the same time fending off charges he's in on the kidnap/
One year after the kidnap when Koehler first gets involved...he is snooping around Condons neighborhood trying to hook Rail 16 into Condons garage. It is likely National was picked as a target location because of Condons house being close by--not BRH until later. So when we consider how Condon got into the maze in the first place and then his Condon and Fisch connections ostensibly at the Occult Church and then later "the key to BRHs cell" and Lying about Samuelson--well how did Condon ever avoid being arrested? He must have done a huge favor for CAL? What was it--getting Charlie back?
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Post by mjrichmond on May 18, 2006 7:58:17 GMT -5
I have a hard time picturing Condon as part of any organized plot. The one thing about him everyone - no matter what their theory of the case - agrees on is that he was a flake and a loose cannon. I cannot imagine anyone bringing him into a conspiracy. It would have been just too dangerous.
Condon's flakiness, on the other hand, might have been known to the kidnappers through his letters to the paper or in some other manner. I suggest that is the reason they picked up on Condon despite having already contacted Breckenridge. (Why use a level headed, intelligent man when you have John F. Condon available?)
Did Lindbergh or the police know how flaky Condon was? Maybe -Breckenridge probably had him checked out - but did Lindbergh have a real choice in using him? If the folks with the singnature say "use Condon" would you argue with them? I wouldn't, no matter how big a flake I thought Condon was.
IMHO, Condon was pretty much what he seemed to be - a self-important, erratic, flake who got into something way, way over his head.
Mjr
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 18, 2006 12:16:46 GMT -5
That is about I how I perceive him as well. I know there are many inconsistencies, outright lies and peculiarities attributable to him, but the very nature of his grandstanding and public persona make him way to unlikely of a figure to be a co conspirator, for me anyway.
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Post by gary on May 18, 2006 17:43:47 GMT -5
I might agree with the both you . One thing we have to remember we are viewing him looking at the entire story as it has been scripted in the books etc... . Could you come to the same opinion with limited exposure to his aloofness? Perhaps he could have been considered with higher regards based on one experience or conversation. He is an educator and a well regarded writer. His resume his superior. It wouldn't be until you dug deep in his thoughts that you might come up "all is not there." I definetely believe Condon knows or he believes he knows more than he ever told.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on May 18, 2006 19:16:05 GMT -5
mjr~ twice now as I've tried to post you the electricity has GONE OFF! EEK! Could it be I was twice "smote" by the ghost of JFC?? I was trying to say I liked your analysis. JFC surely did have character flaws-narcissism, for one. He continually protects his "hero turf" and hinges that onto CJ being the real kidnapper. I try that out as a sort of template to sift through his tales from his (occasional) truth telling. I see his claim that CJ id-ed the safety pins as an example. While at the same time, as we all (except chronic liars) know that liars get mixed up on which lie they told when, and contradict themselves, my "template" falls short, there. <(I need the 3rd Smilie from the right, here, but don't know how to add that)
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 19, 2006 5:39:29 GMT -5
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Post by rick3 on May 19, 2006 11:55:31 GMT -5
There were at many "phases" of the LKC where Condon was the number one suspect:
1. Right from the get-go Breckenridge asks to stay over at Condons house--to watch him and "babysit". Its hard to say how long this lasts? Condon "blows" the i-dee of the 2nd cabby.
2. Det. Harry Walsh has huge reservations about jafsies complicity in the ransom negotiations and maybe even in Charlies demise? [See the round table with Schwarzy and others on Ronells board]
3. Even one year later when AK gets involved with the ladder wood Art is sneaking around National Lumber and Condons neighborhood trying to tie Rail 16 into Condons garage? [Condon was wise to give back the $50 Gold Certs]
4. Just as BRH is having his head shaved, CAL and AGWilintz approve a Panama Vacation for Condon so he can not be interviewed by Hoffman about.....What?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on May 19, 2006 14:54:04 GMT -5
Kevkon~ Good review on Condon. Will try to figure out how to bookmark that. Wish I could follow up on his activities until his demise. That is whatever turns and twists he may have taken about the case. Somewhere it was said he did stay at the "gang" thing, at least for awhile.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on May 19, 2006 15:06:19 GMT -5
Re: my post today at 3:54 I meant to address that to RICK. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry for my goof
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 20, 2006 6:00:36 GMT -5
Of course Condon is going to be a major suspect. Who wouldn't consider that possibility? That is a natural result of his interjection into the case and it might be argued that it makes him a poor candidate as an accomplice.
You know that Koehler was not there to link Condon's garage to the rail,why do you keep saying this? Koehler was looking at many possibilities and if Condon was even close to the top of that list Koehler would have fully examined Condon's properties. What do the $50 notes have to do with this? Are you saying that was to be Condon's fee and he waived it?
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Post by Michael on May 20, 2006 10:36:55 GMT -5
Mairi,
Once you post if you find you need to make a correction, as a Member, you have the "modify" button in the top right corner of your post that you can utilize to correct any mistakes. I use it all the time which creates the notation at the bottom which indicates this change.
There's no way I believe he is any type of "mastermind" but I do tend to agree with Inspector Walsh's insight. He seems to have been brought in by the Kidnappers specifically. As WC points out - it over-rides the decision to deal with Breckenridge directly, something which they had already begun to do.... So I don't think it was a blind move. Now consider that Condon performed very well playing his part - Hauptmann seems very confident that Condon will not name him.
Then he is threatened.
After the threats, Condon names Hauptmann, then concedes his life isn't worth anything and "they" are going to kill him. Now Condon seems to be doing exactly for the Prosecution what he did for the Kidnappers and does a great job of it wouldn't you say? So in essence, the State is now choosing Condon to play this part as well but instead for them now.
Condon is looking out for himself, and I think that is what is going on the whole time. The decision to name Hauptmann is the lesser of two evils and he has no choice but to take his chances with those others who were involved and who some, I believe, are known to Condon.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on May 20, 2006 13:01:03 GMT -5
Kevin....sure anything untoward and opposite to logic can be argued herein...black is white, up is down, right is left out. "Merely by being considered a suspect, he is exonerated" Opps, just like BRH?
Mairi--after 9 posts nooone can find any posts on this Bored without a massive air and sea search/
KevenII--you should go back and read AKs handwritten letter to Captain Lamb....its a beauty. AK is sneaking around Condons neighborhood (under the covers), checking out any possible location to Nail the Rail. But he admits to leaving Jafsies house # in another pants pocket so he cant be certain Where to Nail the Rail? You know of course why the drunk looks for his wallet under the street lamp? V v v v v v v v v v v its the only place he can SEE!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 20, 2006 13:12:23 GMT -5
Not the point Rick and you know it. Of course Condon was suspect ( and still is) , so were others ( and still are).
I have, many times. He is not sneaking around, he is pursuing leads in the Bronx and investigating older structures in that area, which seems logical to me.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on May 20, 2006 17:07:12 GMT -5
Rick~ I would like to know who inherited Fisch's LI property, too. From what I can put together, he did seem to be "moneyful" at times if not throughout. And how did he come by all those gold certs to pay his round trip ticket to go to Germany? Somehow I doubt he "borrowed" those. As to BRH's lifestyle pre and post, he did seem to have good savings habits and Anna would also still be working wouldn't she - for awhile anyway? I'm not smart enough to tally up the ebb and flow of their seeming financial means/lifestyle (pre and post) and additionally, I don't think whoever at trial tried to prove-out the 50,000$$$$$$'s was either. Any thoughts on whether the so called attic board match was tampered with to force a match? It certainly did seem to be handled by many and if I understand, also dismantled. And wasn't it something like 30 mos before the attic board even came into play?
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Post by rick3 on May 21, 2006 2:13:43 GMT -5
Well, it just seems to me that one of the dilemmas we all face is "multiple deceptions". Any instance where you are trying to unscramble one lie--you never accidentally run into the Truth. You run into another lie/
Much of this springs from the Lone Wolf Theory of the case. If every piece of evidence NOT proving BRH was the lone gunman is buried or altered including eyewitness testimony well, you end up with a huge mess--eg the LKC where fact blurs with fiction. Even Harry Walsh states categorically that only Condon and Lupica SEE the kidnapper as of November 1932. Hocsmith and Whited are literally dug up over the next 30 months. But Lupica cant IDee BRH and Condon IDees every man woman and child in 3 states! If Curtis gets arrested (wink) for making up a gang of 5-7 persons, then why not Condon for making up 5-7 CJs?
Just one issue comes to mind. How did the lurker/bodyguard/lookout just disappear into thin air at the Trial? This is a huge lie. To Riech he looked Italian. At. St. Raymonds he signals to CAL and JFC by dropping his hankerchief. Does this mean that Charlies body has been "dropped"?
Kev--one of the biggest hunks of baloney is the holding back of the $50 Gold Certs. whoever heard of such a thing where a Childs life (wink) is at stake? Is this some kind of Bargain Basement sale? Who was mad..Agent Irey from Treasury. Who was proud--JFC. Who said nothing--CAL/ Who died--Charlie/
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Post by rick3 on May 21, 2006 2:36:42 GMT -5
I dont know about that Kevin? How could BRH take off work for what 4-6 weeks in 1931 and drive a new car to CalifornIA? Seems as though he was on top of the game at that time. In theory he could have done exactly the same thing again in 1932 spreading out the ransom notes from here to Halifax.
One break in the case could come if Fisch and BRH were partners in crime before 1932/ I think it is just too coincidental and convenient that they met in March 1932. Contrived and unlikely. But it cuts both waysby accounting for Richards wealth and makes them partners in the kidnap but that had to be buried along with Sharpe, Ollie, Fisch and BRH>>>oops almost forgot Charlie Jr.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 21, 2006 6:36:50 GMT -5
That might very well be true Rick, but you get into even more trouble when you adhere to a hoax or massive conspiracy theory which dismisses Hauptmann as a major player. For myself, I would like to think that progress in the LKC is possible ( remember I am a little delusional). Others may see it differently, but I don't think you will progress very far if you start with the answer and then look for the questions. Lone Wolf, Hoax, Conspiracy Theories are fine for entertainment and self aggrandizement but at the end of the day they all limit your response and knowledge as is the nature of prejudice.
But it was held back. I sometimes wonder if Condon wasn't playing a dangerous game here to be the hero. I wouldn't be surprised if he never told CJ that the "packet" which was calculated to hold $70k in fact only held $50k. It might be the reason he encouraged Lindbergh to read the directions before the allotted time.
Yes , Michael has a theory regarding this. But my point was in regard to 1932 on wards. BRH certainly did enjoy an upswing in his standard of living, especially if you look at the economic situation. Not many people could give up their occupation and embark on a new career at such a time and in stocks no less.
Very possibly
I don't know how it is possible to "force" a match in wood. If anyone has a method I would love to hear it as it could come in very handy in my line of work. You might want to pick up or borrow a copy of Identifying Wood by R Bruce Hoadley as it might answer your question. Of course in terms of dis-engaging Hauptmann from the ladder you would still have to eliminate the hand plane markings, saw kerfs and the Pittsburgh nails.
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Post by rick3 on May 21, 2006 7:30:25 GMT -5
Kevin...maybe we dont disagree just missed communicate....if we review the bidding...factually:
1.Universal agreement that more than one person is involved in the kidnap...nearly everyone is thinking and saying "GANG" 2. Two persons, two footprints, some even said two cars? Extra fingerprints 3. Condon meets CJ...he, according to JFC, says there is a "GANG". 4. Lookouts are seen by Riech and CAL at both cemetary meetings. Condon even says at one point that CJ goes off and talks to "GANG members"! 5. Curtis is arrested for meeting with a GANG, and they all have real names..Dynamite, John, Lars, Neils, Hilda, Inez. Curtis pays $1000 fine? 6. Gaston Means meets with a GANG and later names Irving Fenton (NYC) and Wellington Henderson (Detroit) as a gang members. 7. So after 30 months of chasing Butterflys and thier own tails one single lone carpenter is arrested and the case is chiseled to fit him alone. All other theories are abandoned for a death sentence.
CAll it what you want: Hoax, Fake, Conspiracy, Fraud, Crime of the Century, Lindbergh, A Talent to Deceive, or Scapegoat?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 21, 2006 7:41:57 GMT -5
Yes I would agree. I find some of your ideas to be quite interesting and by no means do I believe with certainty that Hauptmann committed this crime all by his lonesome. But I don't think it is even slightly plausible that he was not a major player. I cannot dismiss the physical evidence as fraudulent nor do I see how anyone can rationally do so. For those who wish to pursue that line of thinking, all I can say is good luck. I will focus on the one man who is inexorably linked to the kidnapping/murder in the hope that might will lead to others. And again I would say that starting out with a theory and making the facts fit is really not the best way to arrive at the truth. That is a very limiting manner of detection and it never holds up to open and honest debate.
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Post by rick3 on Jul 2, 2006 12:26:46 GMT -5
hi Kevin....with regard to Condon......am I the only one to notice that Condon, not unlike Curtis, claims to have been taken aboard a boat or ship or yacht.....in Long Island Sound I think, where he too meets "John" and "Doc" and some Italians and sees the ransom money? I saw this the first time in a newspaper article and thought they were confusing Curtis and Condon? The "gang" says Charlie Jr. was removed for safe keeping??
But it also appears in Gardner! Now Condon doesnt meet Lars or Neils or Dynomite the Scandanoovian semen.....but these two accounts are close enough to be disturbing? And crazy.
Are Condon and Curtis competeing for the same Gang or just the same headlines? Please confirm my insanity/ or just shoot me!
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