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Post by Michael on Oct 10, 2006 17:25:05 GMT -5
Great link Kevin! No way in hell is someone going to get past this slide-bolt!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Oct 11, 2006 7:02:51 GMT -5
No certainly not from the kidnap ladder and certainly not without making a lot of noise. Can you see why the warped shutter story makes no sense? The relative shutter positions don't matter so much, only the axis of the bolt needs to be aligned with the receiver.
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Post by Michael on Oct 11, 2006 18:08:40 GMT -5
I am just amazed that someone would even approach the house expecting to get through the slide bolt on these shutters and then onto this window lock. The ladder is too precise to accept this theory....which leads us to inside help and/or knowledge.
Now just to play Devil's advocate.... How about breaking the louvers in order to get to the slide bolt? I would expect the chisel could be used for this purpose. Am I right and how much noise would that make?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Oct 11, 2006 18:43:03 GMT -5
A chisel would work. But you would be surprised at the difficulty of this task. The Lindbergh shutters are obviously high quality and those slats are not long, so breaking them is a bit of a chore. All of this while standing on the ladder at night. As for noise, I would say it would be hard to escape notice, especially since it must be repeated for each slat until there is room for a hand to pass through.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 14, 2006 12:01:52 GMT -5
I sense a bit of temptation here to possibly conclude that the kidnapper came prepared with prior information that the shutters were not capable of being locked. In consideration of this, it's important to recognize that the kidnapper would not necessarily have to be standing with both feet on the three-section ladder while attempting to defeat the shutters, if he had had to do this. I believe a reenactment will show it would be possible to rest quite comfortably with most of the person's weight on the window sill and using the ladder rung for the right foot as a balancing point. I'm not saying he didn't know about the defective shutter, just pointing out it's no slam dunk.
Kevin, if that shutter slide bolt mechanism is the same type found on the nursery windows, the tolerance for its throw seems quite minimal. If one of the shutters was warped or somehow not aligned with the other, I can imagine there might be some difficulty engaging it cleanly, if at all. Would this all not be quite dependant on the angles of traverse for both sides aligning fairly precisely?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Oct 15, 2006 8:34:09 GMT -5
Joe, I really don't want to go any further with possible entry manouvers until I try some out. I don't think anything short of that would be very responsible.
As for the latch, I don't see the "warpage" as a likely cause, in fact I consider it extremely unlikely. On the other hand a latch mis-alignment could be completely possible. Still it begs the question; why do you bother closing an un-securable shutter?
There is a fair amount of play in these bolts and catches as well as all shutter hardware. It has to be that way given the environment it performs in.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 15, 2006 9:19:44 GMT -5
I agree it seems a tough one to reason, unless Anne and Betty were of the belief, however derived, that they were providing at least some protection against the elements by their very closing. Neither woman strikes me as one who would have been knowledgeable of the design advantages or limitations of these shutters. Perhaps if they had been, the problem of not being able to lock them would have been a previously resolved issue.
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Post by Giszmo on Oct 15, 2006 10:54:09 GMT -5
I agree it seems a tough one to reason, unless Anne and Betty were of the belief, however derived, that they were providing at least some protection against the elements by their very closing. (Joe)
But the window was closed. How would closing the shutters provide "protection against the elements" with the window closed?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Oct 15, 2006 12:09:15 GMT -5
How would it provide protection from anything if it were un-secured on a windy night?
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And for how long was this condition causing a problem? In that time neither woman considered seeking help or a remedy? Did they derive some bizarre form of enjoyment out of the ritual of struggling with an "un-latchable" shutter on freezing cold winter nights?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 15, 2006 14:40:02 GMT -5
Good point Giszmo, although at the same time, there obviously was some rationale present for locking the other shutters in the same room. I'm not sure why... security? Were the southeast corner shutters just closed in suit, to have it appear from the outside that it was locked and the room was secure? I really don't know.
Kevin, on another line of thought and based on the very windy conditions of that evening, is it possible that the shutter dogs themselves were not able to hold the shutters in a motionless and hence quiet and rattle-free position to ensure a good night's sleep for the baby? Of course, this would also depend on the unlocked shutters being able to stay in place (stiffness of the hinges?) without also creating a lot of noise. One thing is certain. David Watson, the contractor, should have been called in before March 1, 1932 to address the concern.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Oct 15, 2006 15:48:58 GMT -5
Is there anything earthshaking about closing the shutters? Two women unschooled in "shutterism" thinking that closing them might further keep the weather out or keeping the nursery darkened a little longer in the morn, seems alright to me. Hadn't called to have shutter fixed? Doesn't sound any different from anyone else not getting things attended to promptly, to me.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Oct 15, 2006 21:30:59 GMT -5
I don't think that would be likely, Joe. The shutter dogs are free to rotate on a stud or bolt. They are adjusted by screwing in the bolt or nut until the dog is slightly compressing the shutter against the wall. If the shutter is loose, the dog will not stay in the vertical or locked position.
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Post by Michael on Feb 4, 2007 8:23:31 GMT -5
There's been much conversation about the shutters both here and in the Ladder/Wood thread so there may serve well to check that thread out as well.... We know the shutters had a heavy slide bolt. What I noticed from Anne's Statement was that - One of them we couldn't fasten. I thought nothing of this until I read Lindbergh's version he told Agent Larimer: The shutters on the east window in the nursery, next to the South, were warped and could not be secured by the hooks. Was there something on the top or bottom of the individual shutter which would 'hook' the shutter to the house in addition to the slide bolt?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 4, 2007 11:22:51 GMT -5
I don't know what Lindbergh is referring to when he says "hooks". The shutters have a bolt catch for securing them together when closed and shutter dogs ( mounted on the exterior wall) to secure them in the open position. No other fastening hardware is needed or evident in any of the numerous photos. Just my opinion, but this does not sound like a first hand report by a man so technically and mechanically orientated.
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Post by Michael on Feb 4, 2007 13:59:07 GMT -5
You could have a valid point concerning terminology. He was writting like this: According to Lindbergh.... and in further discussion Lindbergh stated... so this information may not be exact quotes. Another odd reference attributed to Lindbergh were the ladder rails being referred to as "stringers."
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Post by Michael on Oct 29, 2008 6:59:10 GMT -5
Here's a report from the PA State Police to Maj. Schoeffel concerning the Watson Lumber Co..... Pvt. Greblunas on this date proceeded to the following place, also investigated the following men:
Joseph Scott, 324 E. Center Ave. Newtown, Pa., who gave his age as 50 yrs, married employed as cabinet foreman for the Watson Lumber Co., Newtown, Pa., has lived in Newtown, Pa., for the past 15 yrs, formerly lived in Ivyland, Bucks Co., Pa.
Clifford Wright, 442 E. Washington Ave., Newtown, Pa., who gave his age as 29 yrs, married, employed at the Watson Lumber Co., Newtown, Pa., as a foreman has lived in Newtown for the past 26 yrs, born in Hatboro, Penna.
Henry Bellmeyer, 145 N. State St., Newtown, Pa., age 35, married, but not living with his wife at present, employed as truck driver for the Newtown Lumber Co., has lived in Newtown for the past 12 years, born in Holland,, Bucks, Co., Pa.
George Huffmeister, 21 Sterlng St., Newtown, Pa., age 62, married, carpenter by trade, has lived in Newtown for 16 years, 6 years in Carlise, Pa., born in the State of Iowa. This man was not employed by Newtown Lumber Co. but had made a number of trips to the Lindbergh home at Hopewell, N. J., while it was under construction, along with the truck driver for this company's truck.
Eugene Watson, 429 Green St., Newtown, Pa., age 35, married, employed as yard foreman by the Watson Lumber Co., born and raised in Newtown, Pa.
Investigating officer interviewed the Postmaster at Newtown, Pa., and was asked if he knew any of the above men, he stated that he knew them all, they all had been employed by the Watson Lumber Co., Newtown, Pa., their characters were excellent, none of them had ever been in any trouble, they were honest, reliable and industrious citizens.
Interviewed John F. Coupe, authorized Ford Dealer, Newtown, Pa., he stated that he knew all of the above men, they were good honest men, and he had never heard of any of them being in any kind of trouble.
David L. Watson, Vice Pres. and Treas., for the Watson Lumber Co., Newtown, Pa., was interviewed and he stated that all of the men mentioned above had been at the Lindbergh home during construction, he knew all of the men and their characters were excellent, they were hard working men and were highly respected in that community and never knew of any trouble they were in. [Cpl. John R. Stewart, Troop "C" (Reading) OIC, PA State Police, 7-9-32]
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Mar 14, 2009 13:20:39 GMT -5
At the time the child was found to be missing, one of the "kidnap" shutters was closed. Even though louvered, could strong wind have slammed it shut? Kevkon, come on, come on If Cal did indeed hear a clatter, might that have been the sound? He claimed to have marked it off as something in the kitchen. If, however, he had something of a hearing deficit by then, sound could have very well been directionally distorted.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 14, 2009 16:18:54 GMT -5
Sure Mairi, I think that's a possibility. It's a lot more likely than the ladder breaking while being climbed. Personally, I believe what CAL might have heard was the sound of the ladder being deposited where it was found. That's were I believe it broke. But who knows?
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Post by Michael on Mar 14, 2009 18:06:17 GMT -5
Problem is CAL's first statement. He didn't hear anything. Then the next thing you know he hears something in the direction of the kitchen that no one else hears.
Where was Whateley at that time - the kitchen maybe? And Whagoosh?
Anne, for example, hears all kinds of interesting noises. But she doesn't hear what CAL supposedly did while standing next to him.
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Post by mhaighirtis on Jun 3, 2009 16:29:29 GMT -5
I visited the estate back in 1960 when it was The HIghfield, Even then it was a secluded spot. You had to drive up a dirt wagon road to get to the mansion. I do not live that far from the estate. During March when the wind is whipping through the trees and dead branches are snapping off it just add to all the other noises in the area.
The Linbergh's were not expecting anybody to come to their home that night and steal the baby, So they weren't suspicious of any noises. I'm sure the shutter was warpped and the hasp became unaligned with the catch. Even though the baby was sick with a cold, fresh air is always recommended. The only thing I don't understand, is since it was a windy night, weren't they afraid of the shutters being opened by the wind and then slapping against the house causing the baby to wake up?
Mhaighirtis
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 3, 2009 16:43:21 GMT -5
You are probably right, but there are times when I wonder if it hadn't been "warped" by a previous attempt. I wish they had those shutters at the archives!
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