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Post by romeo12 on Feb 9, 2015 17:31:01 GMT -5
thanks mike, I never could find bitz grave
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Post by stella7 on Feb 9, 2015 19:50:34 GMT -5
I am not convinced of Lindbergh's involvement, but want to keep an open mind about it. I wonder why these particular underworld figures were brought in.
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Post by xjd on Feb 11, 2016 10:19:09 GMT -5
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Post by feathers on Jan 9, 2017 22:44:21 GMT -5
I just finished "Mumza" by Catherine Spitale, and since I haven't seen anything about the book on the board, I thought I would add some comments. I suppose I should give a warning of spoilers below...
The author is Salvy Spitale's niece, the daughter of Salvy's brother Joe. Or at least that is how she was raised. The book is primarily about her suspicions that Joe Spitale was not her natural father and her investigations in that direction.
However, apparently Salvy Spitale often told her, before he died, that she should write his memoirs, so part of the book includes stories about Salvy.
There is a small chapter about the Lindbergh case - basically she says that he believed that Lindbergh killed his own child, without the knowledge of Anne, and that Lindbergh was part of a Bund and that the child had some defect. This is apparently based on the general thinking of the "mob" at the time. She says he was warned by the "mob" against getting involved and was threatened for his involvement.
The book does contribute more information about Salvy Spitale that may be of interest.
First of all, it confirms his link to the Daily News - apparently the author's father was a driver for the Daily News, a job obtained through Salvy.
Apart from that, she makes clear that Salvy WAS part of the mafia. I still remain skeptical of this conclusion, however, as I will explain.
She claims that Salvy was brought into the mafia by Lucky Luciano. After the Spitales received a "Black Hand" letter, Salvy at age 15 1/2 went to confront Lucky and warn him to back off. Lucky admired his courage and brought him into the mob.
The problem with this is that Lucky (who was not called Lucky in 1912, when this allegedly occurred), was actually 10 months younger than Salvy - while Luciano had his own gang at the time, he was not a mafia leader.
It is possible that Spitale was associated with Luciano's gang outside of the mafia - hence the term "mob" which is apparently the term used by Salvy himself in telling the stories, does not necessarily equate to mafia.
Additionally, Salvy claims to be the only person who ever was allowed to leave the "mob". Again, one could leave the mob, but not the mafia.
Finally, I find it unlikely that a mafia member would encourage a niece to write his memoirs. A mobster, maybe.
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts....
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Post by feathers on Jan 9, 2017 22:46:57 GMT -5
Oh I forgot to mention that she says he admitted to her that he killed Legs Diamond, something he had always been suspected of.
And that while it is possible he had the connections to Luciano, Costello and Frankie Yale, mentioned in the book (they lived in the right area and ran in the same circles), Spitale has always been described as independent.
Finally, Luciano's life has been fairly extensively researched and I have never seen any reference to Spitale being an actual associate of his.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 9:57:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the review of this book on Spitale. I had heard about it but have not read it. What she wrote about Spitale's view of Lindbergh is very interesting. I would love to know the private positions held by the people who surrounded Lindbergh during this crime. How many of them might have believed that Lindbergh was responsible for what happened to his son. Does Catherine Spitale mention that Salvy had owned a café in New York? There is a picture on ebay right now that is supposedly this café. www.ebay.com/itm/1932-PRESS-PHOTO-Lindbergh-Kidnapping-Murder-Cafe-Owned-Sal-Spitale-2012-/201744780336?hash=item2ef8ed0c30
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Post by Michael on Jan 10, 2017 17:38:08 GMT -5
I just finished "Mumza" by Catherine Spitale, and since I haven't seen anything about the book on the board, I thought I would add some comments. I suppose I should give a warning of spoilers below... One of the things that always stood out to me, and I included it in my book ( TDC pages 110-1) was his actual testimony that he believed this was an inside job. That could not have gone over well with Lindbergh and shows to me that he was completely unafraid. In fact, he volunteered to be interviewed by Governor Hoffman (see letter below). So Catherine Spitale's book ties a nice & neat bow around the whole thing. No doubt in my mind this was told to her, and it's very important when considering the access/role Spitale played. Feathers: Do you think Spitale killed Legs Diamond? I've read where he was responsible but I've also read that he tried several times and failed - and that Fats McCarthy actually killed him. They other thing I wanted to add, and I hope I'm not repeating something, is that Owney Madden was really pissed when Rosner told him Bitz & Spitale were involved. According to George Clarke it threw him into " a frenzy of fury."
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Post by feathers on Jan 11, 2017 20:31:14 GMT -5
I do think that Spitale was responsible for Diamond's death, in the sense of ordering it, but I don't know if he pulled the trigger. One book I read said he had an alibi that night being at a hockey game in Madison Square Garden, but I haven't been able to confirm that story.
Who killed Legs Diamond is one of those unsolved mysteries. The only witness was a woman named Mrs. Laura Wood who heard the shooting and then the two gunmen talking as they left. She didn't get a look at them. No one was ever arrested for the crime and as far as I know the bullets were never matched.
Spitale certainly had the motive and yes, he did make attempts on Diamond's life earlier - Diamond told a journalist that Spitale and Bitz were the ones who had shot him on an earlier occasion. The police were convinced it was Spitale and Bitz and said so in a report by Irving Halpern at a sentencing for Spitale in 1939. The statement in his niece's book fits in with that. I believe he told her that and I don't know why he would make it up to tell his niece.
Fats McCarthy (Edward Popke) was also a suspect. He was one of Mad Dog Coll's gunmen and was known to be in the area at the time of Diamond's murder. He could have been one of the triggermen - if so, he did it as a contract hit as he did not appear to have any real motive for killing Diamond. Diamond's wife Alice apparently was convinced that McCarthy was one of the killers. My only concern about this theory is that McCarthy was in hiding at the time of the murder as he was wanted for killing a detective earlier that year. Would he have come out of hiding to do a hit? Maybe, he was thought to be a psychopath....
There are lots of other theories, including one involving corrupt policemen, but my money is on Spitale for now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 6:17:36 GMT -5
While looking through the investigative reports, I came across this one on Salvatore Spitale. The NJSP had gone out to Detroit to investigate, among other things, Betty Gow's background. Salvatore Spitale came up while talking to a member of Detroit' Homicide division. Spitale had come into the Lindbergh Kidnapping case through Morris Rosner. Lindbergh had actually authorized Salvatore Spitale to be an intermediary along with Irving Bitz as part of the effort to get his son back. As you will see in this report, Spitale had actually tried to extort money from someone in Detroit in 1931. Spitale's demand for $5,000 and the denominations which he wanted the money paid in make an interesting comparison to the Lindbergh ransom payment. It was suggested by Inspector Collins that NJSP should compare Spitale's handwriting with the Lindbergh ransom notes! imgur.com/XhoYh5uMichael, do you know if the handwriting of Spitale was ever checked by the NJSP as suggested by Detroit LE?
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Post by Michael on Oct 16, 2019 10:22:20 GMT -5
Michael, do you know if the handwriting of Spitale was ever checked by the NJSP as suggested by Detroit LE? Good question as always Amy. One would think they did - right? But off the top of my head I didn't remember anything showing whether it had been. I took a quick glance at the folder I assembled with their material and didn't see anything. That could mean nothing exists, that I somehow missed it, or that there's a document containing multiple subjects (to include this) and I filed it under a different topic instead. Amy, I think you know exactly what I am talking about. So the report that I seek could be, say, sitting in Folder #9 of my J. J. Faulkner material (as an example). Now - I do have a copy of Spitale's 1931 DL that contains his printing on it. That tells me they probably did look it over. If I am right, that would mean it went over to Snook who ruled it out. Otherwise, it would be documented in the Osborn material and I don't see it there. Of course I could be wrong - but I think the odds that I am are low. As a side note, during Gov. Hoffman's re-investigation, Spitale's lawyer reached out to the Governor letting him know that Spitale thought he might want to speak to him, and if so, he would make himself available. Surprising to see a gangster volunteer to give information. (see report in my Jan 10, 2017 at 5:38pm post above).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 18:39:07 GMT -5
Amy, I think you know exactly what I am talking about. So the report that I seek could be, say, sitting in Folder #9 of my J. J. Faulkner material (as an example). Indeed I do, Michael. I think I am finally starting to get a grip on negotiating the diversity of information that can be contained in one report. Several persons of interest can be written about in just one report. If you file the report under just one of those people, then you also file away the other persons mentioned in that report into that one particular folder. I am learning to make more than one copy of a report so I can multi-file it!! I have not yet come across the copies mentioned in that Spitale report I posted. This is an area I need to work on as a researcher. Not all reports have the attachments with them so I must get better at locating missing attachments. Sometimes the same report can be filed in more than one place at the archives and that is where the attachments sometimes are. There is such a huge amount of documentation at the archives!! I have not even gone near the Osborn material yet! Maybe later this year?? I agree that Spitale's writing was probably looked over. On some of the handwriting reports I have seen that were written by Snook, he mentions the handwriting samples being examined by Osborn. Was this the standard procedure - Snook acquired the handwriting samples and he then passed them along to Osborn - or did Snook do any of the evaluations himself and passed on only the ones he felt needed Osborn's opinion? I am surprised by this too. I know he thought it was an inside job. Was Spitale also the underworld figure who warned Lindbergh not to pay the ransom because he would be taken for it by the kidnappers? Clearly, Spitale must have thought the child was already dead when he entered this case in early March! Did Spitale and Bitz ever see the ransom notes? I know Owney Madden did.
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Post by Michael on Oct 17, 2019 8:21:41 GMT -5
Indeed I do, Michael. I think I am finally starting to get a grip on negotiating the diversity of information that can be contained in one report. Several persons of interest can be written about in just one report. If you file the report under just one of those people, then you also file away the other persons mentioned in that report into that one particular folder. I am learning to make more than one copy of a report so I can multi-file it!! That is the "ideal" situation. Unfortunately, that still sometimes doesn't work for me. And so, despite multiple copies in multiple places there will be days I am searching around looking and looking and looking anyway. The sad part is that sometimes its in the very file I believed it was in and just flat out missed it. I have not yet come across the copies mentioned in that Spitale report I posted. This is an area I need to work on as a researcher. Not all reports have the attachments with them so I must get better at locating missing attachments. Sometimes the same report can be filed in more than one place at the archives and that is where the attachments sometimes are. There is such a huge amount of documentation at the archives!! I have not even gone near the Osborn material yet! Maybe later this year?? By the time I completely figured out the files it was almost be too late. I probably went through everything once before I started to get a grasp. I could boast knowledge after the fact. Then, back in 2016, I started to forget some of what I learned because I wasn't going down there as often. When it comes to the NJSP Collection, you'll notice the "A" and "B" collections. At first I thought the "B" was simply carbons of what was in "A." You'll find that can be the case, but that also there is some unique material in "B" to include attachments. That's why I simply went through everything and stopped assuming. I agree that Spitale's writing was probably looked over. On some of the handwriting reports I have seen that were written by Snook, he mentions the handwriting samples being examined by Osborn. Was this the standard procedure - Snook acquired the handwriting samples and he then passed them along to Osborn - or did Snook do any of the evaluations himself and passed on only the ones he felt needed Osborn's opinion? When it came to exemplars from those police had interest in (for whatever reason), the "system" seemed to be that they went to Snook first. If he saw similarities, that in his opinion warranted further expert opinion, it usually went from him to one of the Osborns (usually Osborn D.). Now, of course, exactly when this "system" was developed I cannot say but it was early on. I also want to mention that its probably not true 100% of the time. But I can say "most" of the time for certain. I am surprised by this too. I know he thought it was an inside job. Was Spitale also the underworld figure who warned Lindbergh not to pay the ransom because he would be taken for it by the kidnappers? Clearly, Spitale must have thought the child was already dead when he entered this case in early March! Did Spitale and Bitz ever see the ransom notes? I know Owney Madden did. I believe they saw something but I'm not sure about the symbol. Where that reference is I'd have to think on it because its not jumping out at me at the moment.
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