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Post by skeptical on Oct 1, 2022 23:56:06 GMT -5
Greetings to all with my first post.
It’s been about fifty years since I first became aquatinted with controversies over the Lindbergh kidnapping.
The most unusual single fact about the case to me has always been that under any theory, there is a report of a baby kidnapped from a second story nursery by means of a homemade 38 pound ladder between 8 and 10:30 pm when all the adults in the house are awake downstairs.
Without inside information how could anyone know which room the nursery was?
Even if the correct room was known, why not wait until the entire household was asleep?
If it was an outsider, where did they park a vehicle?
And, if some kind of inside conspiracy to account for a dead baby, why raise an alarm before morning, when it would be much less suspicious than imagining a reckless kidnapper scaling a ladder with the household awake?
Any discussion will be much appreciated.
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Post by trojanusc on Oct 2, 2022 0:32:55 GMT -5
Greetings to all with my first post. It’s been about fifty years since I first became aquatinted with controversies over the Lindbergh kidnapping. The most unusual single fact about the case to me has always been that under any theory, there is a report of a baby kidnapped from a second story nursery by means of a homemade 38 pound ladder between 8 and 10:30 pm when all the adults in the house are awake downstairs. Without inside information how could anyone know which room the nursery was? Even if the correct room was known, why not wait until the entire household was asleep? If it was an outsider, where did they park a vehicle? And, if some kind of inside conspiracy to account for a dead baby, why raise an alarm before morning, when it would be much less suspicious than imagining a reckless kidnapper scaling a ladder with the household awake? Any discussion will be much appreciated. These are the questions that make the lone wolf theory quite preposterous. In addition to the above facts you also need to realize that there are NO footprints approaching the house. This means the kidnappers navigated a VERY narrow boardwalk around the side of the house and managed to set up the ladder without so much as stepping one foot off. The ladder was hard enough for a couple people to put up in the NOVA special, let alone one unfamiliar person in stormy weather. They were simply very careful to not show from whence they came. On top of this, the kidnappers did not, at any point it appears, step off the boardwalk so as to go far enough back to see inside the window, which would provide clues as to if the baby was even present, if there were other people in the room with the baby, if it was the right room to begin with, etc. There were however footprints leaving the scene in a totally different direction from where they must have come. Along this path of footprints was the ladder. This, to me at least, indicates pretty clearly that it was an inside job with a "breadcrumb" trail left so the cops would follow it and misdirect their attention from where it came. Also this is why I think the note was placed on the window sill - basically to say "WE WENT THIS WAY." As far as raising the alarm, I think CAL was of the stature that nobody would question him. Lots of cops at the time privately suspected all was not on the up and up with him, but nobody dared question it aloud. He was indeed right about this. All of the questions you raise lead to this being an inside job, yet Lindbergh flat out refused to let the cops interview the staff. Why on earth would you do this?
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hiram
Detective
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Post by hiram on Oct 2, 2022 1:36:59 GMT -5
First, the kidnappers must have known that the baby, per Lindbergh's instructions, would not be checked as he slept in his crib until 10 p.m. at which time the household went to bed. The baby's disappearance would be discovered at 10 p.m. and not in the morning. Second, I suggest that the kidnappers needed alibis, good ones, and therefore managed to be somewhere with witnesses ready to testify concerning their whereabouts, whether in the Bronx or in New jersey. They had two hours from 9 p.m to 11 p.m to go home, to a speakeasy, or a place where someone would recognize them and vouch for their presence.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 2, 2022 2:44:13 GMT -5
More questions arise about the second story window.
It’s the only one not locked, because it has a defective latch on the shutters.
Either wild chance or inside information is required for that window to be accessed.
You read where over a century ago, there was a class of daylight burglars known as second story men who did use ladders to burgle jewelry and other valuables during daylight hours when the household is awake, and not likely to go to upstairs bedrooms. Yet this case involves a second story intruder during the evening when the household is going to go to sleep, at any time after dark. At 2 am the entire household will be fast asleep. Why not wait?
An outsider nearly had to have used a motor vehicle. How did BRH carry a three piece ladder in a 1930 Dodge sedan? Where did he park it? It made noise. It left tire tracks. A ladder would have made it stand out like a flare.
Another detail. BRH was a skilled professional carpenter. The ladder was something cobbled together. The third section, was not usable that evening.
And by my estimation, all the wildly improbable things about a 9 pm (plus or minus an hour) second story abduction also make it unlikely CAL made up a cover story.
A theory to make this easier to explain:
Violet Sharpe is involved.
It was planned as a kidnapping.
BRH is the ransom note author, all of them.
A local man made the ladder, and hid the ladder on the property ahead of time.
The baby was dropped.
There was another women appointed to care for the Eaglet, until ransomed.
Minimum of two women, two men.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
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Post by Joe on Oct 2, 2022 16:22:29 GMT -5
More questions arise about the second story window. It’s the only one not locked, because it has a defective latch on the shutters. It was customary in that household to leave the upstairs windows unlocked. Not an uncommon practice, if one felt they were secure in their surroundings.
Either wild chance or inside information is required for that window to be accessed. Adequate surveillance would have gone a long way towards identifying the nursery windows and the child's sleep schedule. There is no proven connection between Hauptmann and any member of either household for inside information.You read where over a century ago, there was a class of daylight burglars known as second story men who did use ladders to burgle jewelry and other valuables during daylight hours when the household is awake, and not likely to go to upstairs bedrooms. Yet this case involves a second story intruder during the evening when the household is going to go to sleep, at any time after dark. At 2 am the entire household will be fast asleep. Why not wait? Why wait until the parents are on the same level and most likely in the next room to the nursery in a still and quiet house? The kidnapper took advantage of downstairs activity and noise, with anyone less likely to intervene.An outsider nearly had to have used a motor vehicle. How did BRH carry a three piece ladder in a 1930 Dodge sedan? Where did he park it? It made noise. It left tire tracks. A ladder would have made it stand out like a flare. The nested 3-piece ladder was proven to fit inside BRH's car with a few inches to spare. He could have covered it with a blanket while enroute to Hopewell. The car would have been parked on Hopewell-Wertsville Road, just north of the laneway entrance. Another detail. BRH was a skilled professional carpenter. The ladder was something cobbled together. The third section, was not usable that evening. The ladder was for the most part, extremely-well designed and built to meet its needs for transport and actual usage. It was deadly effective, but would have had to have been negotiated by an agile climber, due to a number of construction flaws, apparently overlooked by the same man who made other fatal mistakes which eventually led investigators to him. And by my estimation, all the wildly improbable things about a 9 pm (plus or minus an hour) second story abduction also make it unlikely CAL made up a cover story. Not sure what you're getting at here.A theory to make this easier to explain: Violet Sharpe is involved. There is no proof of Violet having been anything more than terrified by the prospect of being associated with the divulging of potential "secrets of the household" or having details of her romantic life revealed. It was planned as a kidnapping. Agreed.BRH is the ransom note author, all of them. Agreed.A local man made the ladder, and hid the ladder on the property ahead of time. Disagree, it was Hauptmann alone, who built the ladder in the Bronx. The baby was dropped. Quite possibly.There was another women appointed to care for the Eaglet, until ransomed. While I'd like to think so, there is no evidence the child was intended to be cared for.Minimum of two women, two men. Nothing to dispute this, but I don't see anyone other than Hauptmann having benefitted significantly from the proceeds of the ransom payment. A potential lookout at Woodlawn and St. Raymonds does cloud this a bit, but I believe it may have been a case of Hauptmann telling the other, "If you talk you go to the chair as well, so be happy with this amount."
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 2, 2022 16:54:18 GMT -5
Greetings to all with my first post. It’s been about fifty years since I first became aquatinted with controversies over the Lindbergh kidnapping. The most unusual single fact about the case to me has always been that under any theory, there is a report of a baby kidnapped from a second story nursery by means of a homemade 38 pound ladder between 8 and 10:30 pm when all the adults in the house are awake downstairs. Without inside information how could anyone know which room the nursery was? Even if the correct room was known, why not wait until the entire household was asleep? If it was an outsider, where did they park a vehicle? And, if some kind of inside conspiracy to account for a dead baby, why raise an alarm before morning, when it would be much less suspicious than imagining a reckless kidnapper scaling a ladder with the household awake? Any discussion will be much appreciated. These are the questions that make the lone wolf theory quite preposterous. I think you're off point here. The main knock against the 'Lone Wolf as kidnapper' theory is how one man could have kidnapped the child without direct assistance at the crime scene.In addition to the above facts you also need to realize that there are NO footprints approaching the house. This means the kidnappers navigated a VERY narrow boardwalk around the side of the house and managed to set up the ladder without so much as stepping one foot off. The ladder was hard enough for a couple people to put up in the NOVA special, let alone one unfamiliar person in stormy weather. They were simply very careful to not show from whence they came. You're basing this scenario on inaccurate an/or incomplete information, relative to the actual state of the lee-protected ground alongside the house. In addition, this notion that the kidnapper(s) were attempting to disguise the direction from which they approached the house, is ludicrous. They could only have come from one direction and there would have been no need to try and pretend otherwise.On top of this, the kidnappers did not, at any point it appears, step off the boardwalk so as to go far enough back to see inside the window, which would provide clues as to if the baby was even present, if there were other people in the room with the baby, if it was the right room to begin with, etc. Unfortunately, the true state of the ground along the lee-protected east wall of the house did not register the times the kidnapper(s) who wore soft fabric shoe coverings, actually did step off the narrow boardwalk. There were however footprints leaving the scene in a totally different direction from where they must have come. Along this path of footprints was the ladder. This, to me at least, indicates pretty clearly that it was an inside job with a "breadcrumb" trail left so the cops would follow it and misdirect their attention from where it came. Also this is why I think the note was placed on the window sill - basically to say "WE WENT THIS WAY." I couldn't disagree more, and don't take this theory seriously. Have you ever wondered why someone would plan a faked kidnapping with the intention of demonstrating that's exactly what it was? Answer: They wouldn't. As far as raising the alarm, I think CAL was of the stature that nobody would question him. Lots of cops at the time privately suspected all was not on the up and up with him, but nobody dared question it aloud. He was indeed right about this. All of the questions you raise lead to this being an inside job, yet Lindbergh flat out refused to let the cops interview the staff. Why on earth would you do this? Grossly over-simplified statements, subjective interpretations and inaccurate information, to support the untenable here.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 2, 2022 21:34:59 GMT -5
The evidence against BRH is overwhelming and devastating.
Let’s test the theory , that only BRH alone made the ladder, planned the crime, drove to Hopewell, climbed the ladder, snatched the Eaglet, the child died, he drove to where the child was found, then home.
If he’s done prior scouting, he knows the child on Tuesday nights is not at Hopewell.
But fortune often favors the bold. He plans his crime not knowing that was the first Tuesday, the child would be at Hopewell.
How did he know which room the nursery was?
He’s got to get lucky, and find a place to park, where he’s not challenged. Then go observe. He sees the woman close the blinds.
His three piece ladder is now handy. He only needs two sections.
Snatch!
He wore gloves, no prints.
Baby dies. Not relevant how. But if not intended then at at least Anna was going to know if he took home the Eaglet.
With a dead baby he flees towards where the baby was found.
He has to park his Dodge. Go in the woods and return.
Now he goes home.
All that works.
But it’s not the simplest solution.
The simplest solution is somebody in the household tipped BRH.
He’d hidden the ladder near the scene, done prior scouting, and to have one man carry the baby and another the ladder, he had a helper.
And then he’d had a woman arranged to care for the Eaglet.
Killing the baby was an accident.
So in the simplest solution, there are 4 conspirators.
Only one was executed, not injustice, just not complete justice.
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Post by trojanusc on Oct 2, 2022 23:54:24 GMT -5
The evidence against BRH is overwhelming and devastating. Let’s test the theory , that only BRH alone made the ladder, planned the crime, drove to Hopewell, climbed the ladder, snatched the Eaglet, the child died, he drove to where the child was found, then home. If he’s done prior scouting, he knows the child on Tuesday nights is not at Hopewell. But fortune often favors the bold. He plans his crime not knowing that was the first Tuesday, the child would be at Hopewell. How did he know which room the nursery was? He’s got to get lucky, and find a place to park, where he’s not challenged. Then go observe. He sees the woman close the blinds. His three piece ladder is now handy. He only needs two sections. Snatch! He wore gloves, no prints. Baby dies. Not relevant how. But if not intended then at at least Anna was going to know if he took home the Eaglet. With a dead baby he flees towards where the baby was found. He has to park his Dodge. Go in the woods and return. Now he goes home. All that works. But it’s not the simplest solution. The simplest solution is somebody in the household tipped BRH. He’d hidden the ladder near the scene, done prior scouting, and to have one man carry the baby and another the ladder, he had a helper. And then he’d had a woman arranged to care for the Eaglet. Killing the baby was an accident. So in the simplest solution, there are 4 conspirators. Only one was executed, not injustice, just not complete justice. All of this ignores Lindbergh’s odd behavior and lies. The fact that nearly everyone there the night of thought something was funny about the crime scene - it appeared to be staged. Lindbergh himself seemed to accept the baby was deliberately handed out the front door. Hauptmann had an alibi the night of the kidnapping. This included his wife, who refused to lie about seeing the shoebox, so it seems unlikely she’d lie here. Would strongly recommend you read Gardner’s The Case That Never Dies and Michael’s Dark Corners, as much of what you're speculating on is inaccurate or not possible given the actual evidence of record.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 3, 2022 2:59:39 GMT -5
The Case that Never Dies is on it’s way to me. The Jon Benet Ramsey case today proves that if a white supremest Nazi eugenist serial adulterer who consorted with mad doctors beloved by Adolf Hitler the press and the police would have such tunnel vision when the child was found dead almost within sight of Hopewell they’d hang Lindy today even if BRH confessed. But tragic things happen to extremely odd, bad people. The first obstacle to CAL did it is Anne Morrow Lindbergh. Her behavior is so Saint like it’s hard to believe she knew her first born was murdered by CAL. She went on to have several more of that stone cold bastard’s children, and wrote that famous diary. Betty Gow is likewise stainless. Yet CAL did in fact miss a gala that evening he was supposed to attend. He wasn’t supposed to be there at eight or nine or ten. Let’s pretend AML and Betty Gow are secret Eva Brauns and Violet Sharpe had a guilty conscience. Over the weekend the Eaglet dies. How doesn’t matter. CAL leads a huge cover up. On the premises is a left behind ramshackle ladder used for roofing. Or CAL cobbles up a ladder. Every member of the household must know, and support the cover up. The baby is badly hidden in the woods almost in sight of home. Then at the most unbelievable time, when CAL was supposed to be alibied by hundreds of adoring fans, he calls the police knowing his celebrity will save him. In due course poor Bruno gets framed by the police and it becomes a scene from the old Vernon Dalhart ballad Convict and the Rose. youtu.be/npEWSiXatOwPatsy Ramsey was an air headed former beauty pageant winner, whose child was murdered by an outside intruder. She was saved by DNA evidence. The killer remains at large. I never believed a second she ritually murdered her own child in the basement of her mansion. She’d have come up with a more believable story. That’s the problem I have with CAL murdering or helping cover up the Eaglet’s death. CAL loved the man in the mirror he saw each morning too much. If CAL had done it the baby would still not be found today. It’s just too wild a story for a guilty man to fabricate, as I see it. But it could have happened. I just don’t believe it.
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hiram
Detective
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Post by hiram on Oct 3, 2022 6:39:02 GMT -5
Skeptical makes some interesting points here to give direction to the board discussion. The parallel with the Jon Ramsey case is well made: the police investigation was badly bungled from the beginning, and the real killer escaping without suspicion. Lindbergh's loyalty to the US during WWII was not questioned by the government. It has already been pointed out that he was hired by the US government as a consultant to the Willow Run factory that made fighter airplanes for the war. In 1944 the plant reduced its production. laying off employees, and Lindbergh then flew a fighter plane himself in the Pacific theater. He had an unusual personality, it is true, but that may have been the result of his upbringing. He tried to toughen his child, but he himself may have had a childhood with parents who tried to "toughen him upl" What is known of his childhood and the methods his own parents used in his upbringing? Anne's impressions of CAL as given in her diary were her own impressions as a woman falling in love. He could not have been a husband easy to live with, but that does not make him a child murderer. As Skeptical points out, CAL was better organized and would have done a better job if he were involved in it. If the child's body had been dumped into a river and never found, the case would still be a complete mystery. I doubt that CAl would have hired a bunch of amateurs who made any number of blunders but who still escaped detection. There are still too many missing pieces.
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Post by Sherlock on Oct 3, 2022 7:49:10 GMT -5
Hi Skeptical, Its great to have a new contributor to our forum. Welcome. Your postings (no criticism intended) take us back to square one i.e the circumstances of the actual abduction which, although familiar to old forum hands, do deserve a reappraisal from time to time.
I cannot believe BRH carried out the abduction for the reasons already advanced by Trojanusc to which I add:
The decision to stay over on the Tuesday was made only around 10 am on that Tuesday morning in a phone call from CAL to Anne. Knowing him, it is likely to have been his-, rather than a joint decision.
There was no need to leave a kidnap note on site. An external kidnapper would benefit from even a short delay while the family wondered where the child was.
An external kidnapper would surely have cut the phone line to allow a head start before the alarm was raised.
The insanity of taking a potentially noisy child from a strange house containing five alert, child-conscious adults, a dog, and several guns.
The choice of the most unsuitable victim ensuring maximum police resources and maximum publicity when many lower profile rich families had potential victims.
I was pleased to see your description of the ladder as “a ramshackle ladder used for roofing.” As I have outlined in previous postings the ladder construction strongly resembles that of a roofing ladder used by tilers etc for roof work. Built for crawling, it was never intended for vertical ascent.
Much to ponder,
Sherlock
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hiram
Detective
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Post by hiram on Oct 3, 2022 8:24:47 GMT -5
The first call from Hopewell actually came on Monday morning, Feb. 29, from Anne with a message to her mother that the child was sick with a cold and that the Lindberghs would not return to Next Day Hill until the baby was better. The call made on Tuesday morning (March 1) was the second call from Anne who stated that the baby was better but that she (Anne) was coming down with the cold and asking Betty Gow to come to Englewood and help her care for the child. The call on Monday was most likely then reported to the kidnapping gang who could then prepare on Monday afternoon for the snatch on Tuesday evening if the Lindberghs continue to stay in Hopewell. The second call would then be reported as "It's a Go" . The planning had been done "for a year already." The kidnappers probably expected to kidnap the child on a weekend but took advantage of the opportunity for the stayover to complete their purpose. The ladder used was the wrong type, but the kidnappers may have been workers on roofs or painters who were familiar with this type and happeeed to have one available.
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hiram
Detective
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Post by hiram on Oct 3, 2022 8:52:46 GMT -5
The friend of Isidore Fisch called Fritz, who also served as Fisch's front man in laundering hot money, was a painter. Carl Henkel, another friend of Fisch who drove the wagon when Fisch was supposedly in the pie business, wss also a painter. The kidnappers may have been roofers or painters themselves or may have had friends in the business who gave them the ladder for other purposes. it's possible that the kindappers did not know the limitations of the ladder they were using or were willing to take a chance.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 3, 2022 8:53:08 GMT -5
The assumptive conclusion that the kidnapper(s) must have been tipped off that the child would be in Hopewell on Tuesday evening, time and time again fails to consider the far greater likelihood that they would have simply believed that the Lindberghs lived there full time. Surveillance conducted on the house day or night, during the weekend or even during the week, would have recognized activity in and around the house, as the Whateleys were full time custodians of the property. Hauptmann's circle of influence was essentially worlds apart from that of the Lindberghs, and he would have had no reason to believe other than that they had permanently moved in. Not to mention the fact that intentionally providing this kind of linchpin insider information, had it actually have happened within the context of a faked kidnapping, would have been a surefire means of exposing such a short-sighted plot to police investigators.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 3, 2022 9:35:35 GMT -5
I’m not a pulp detective story fan, but I’ve followed every famous current mystery (real whodunnits versus whydedoits) my entire life plus study historical whodunnits.
The Lindbergh case is and will likely remain a classic whodunnit.
In 1932 CAL was the most famous man in America. Today a schoolteacher might get fired explaining how the Lone Eagle received a Nazi medal and actively participated with a eugenist who might have been executed by France for collaboration had he lived. The dark underbelly of CAL is as disgusting as it is fascinating.
CAL had a motive to dispose of little Charlie.
But Anne Lindbergh and Betty Gow had none.
For CAL to hire fools to kidnap his own son using a makeshift ladder on a wildly improbable and extremely suspicious date is possible, but again Occam’s razor holds it was lucky fools using a ramshackle ladder, instead.
Some questions for the more knowledgeable here:
1. Assume an actual second story intruder. A very lucky one. He’s only and nobody else but BNH.
2. What is the 1932 drive time from the Bronx to Hopewell?
3. At Hopewell, where did BRH park the 1930 Dodge?
4. Why bring an extra ladder section, assuming one section wasn’t needed?
5. A 1930 Dodge sedan is much narrower than almost all modern cars. Did the police fold up the actual ladder to place in the back seat of the actual car?
6. Sunset time early March 1932. There’s light even after sunset.
7. Which way towards the Bronx was the body found. Other options?
8. Generally discuss what BRH had to have done if he’d read the papers about CAL new home and decided to leave the Bronx and do everything the law later convicted him of. He’s not (nor really could be 2 1/2 years later) credibly alibied. He did have lots of ransom money. It was possible. If so, a detailed timeline is essential.
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hiram
Detective
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Post by hiram on Oct 3, 2022 11:00:44 GMT -5
In 1938 Henry Ford also received a Nazi medal of honor. I will try to attach a photo of the ceremony. Henry Ford was also a consultant during WWII for the making of the fighter planes in the factory at Willow Run between Ypsilanti and Detroit, Michigan. Ford donated the plant and directed the design of the assembly line. Lindbergh was the other consultant; he oversaw the construction of the planes (B-24s). They were the two major consultants to the bomber plant, as it was known to the natives. Lindbergh moved his family to Grosse Point near Detroit to do this work. Ford lived in Dearborn. Photos have appeared on the board of the two of them at the bomber plant. One is shown on the LINKS thread. I am not defending their philosophies at all, but am stating that they did work to defend the US during WWII and did not work to support the Nazi government. Quite the contrary.
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Post by bernardt on Oct 3, 2022 11:43:31 GMT -5
Betty Gow's brother worked for the Ford Company in Michigan. When Betty came to here she visited her brother and his wife in Detroit. Her brother also was connected to the Purple Gang and apparently was taking materials from his work for the use of the Purple Gang. This was investigated very thoroughly by the FBI so I won't go into it, but information is available in case anyone is interested in pursuing it.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 3, 2022 12:25:37 GMT -5
Many people alive today have made statements supporting Vladimir Putin that will cast them in a terrible light 90 years from now. Lindy and Henry Ford became true blue Americans on December 7, 1941 when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. So did Senator Nye, the fascist tyrants best friend in the United States Senate. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_NyeA young President Gerald Ford was a member of America First. The radical right in the thirties makes the present radical right look like choir boys. This is why bad character evidence isn’t admissible. You might accidentally find Senator Nye wasn’t alibied March 2 1932. What about the principals in the Business Plot? Were they alibied? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_PlotAs morally repugnant as CAL is today, in 1932 he was a mainstream conservative.
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Post by Sue on Oct 3, 2022 12:30:29 GMT -5
Did Putin have his REASONS for invading Ukraine?
Run by rich oligarchs, aren't there bioweapons labs in Ukraine?
Isn't that the primary reason why he invaded?
Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on planet Earth.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 3, 2022 14:34:05 GMT -5
Did Putin have his REASONS for invading Ukraine? Run by rich oligarchs, aren't there bioweapons labs in Ukraine? Isn't that the primary reason why he invaded? Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on planet Earth. Ukraine isn’t governed by saints and Russia invaded a sovereign nation and has committed war crimes they cannot deny. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_UkraineCAL being a Nazi sympathizer and white supremest and eugenicist in 1932 would have not been so horrible today, except for Adolf Hitler and all who subscribed to his ideas becoming a byword for evil,,,,later. If Putin’s invasion of Ukraine had been over in days,,,,the stigma of supporting Putin might not be as odious as it is when mass graves are being discovered in liberated areas of Urkraine. It sucks to back the wrong horse. It doesn’t mean you murdered your Eaglet.
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Post by IloveDFW on Oct 3, 2022 16:14:40 GMT -5
In 1938 Henry Ford also received a Nazi medal of honor. I will try to attach a photo of the ceremony. Henry Ford was also a consultant during WWII for the making of the fighter planes in the factory at Willow Run between Ypsilanti and Detroit, Michigan. Ford donated the plant and directed the design of the assembly line. Lindbergh was the other consultant; he oversaw the construction of the planes (B-24s). They were the two major consultants to the bomber plant, as it was known to the natives. Lindbergh moved his family to Grosse Point near Detroit to do this work. Ford lived in Dearborn. Photos have appeared on the board of the two of them at the bomber plant. One is shown on the LINKS thread. I am not defending their philosophies at all, but am stating that they did work to defend the US during WWII and did not work to support the Nazi government. Quite the contrary. View AttachmentFord was an f'ing antisemitic asshole and hopefully is burning in hell along with cal.
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Post by trojanusc on Oct 4, 2022 0:34:49 GMT -5
The first obstacle to CAL did it is Anne Morrow Lindbergh. Her behavior is so Saint like it’s hard to believe she knew her first born was murdered by CAL. She went on to have several more of that stone cold bastard’s children, and wrote that famous diary. - She likely knew the baby was "going away," to an institution or some such place to care for his needs. He was at an age when his physical deformities would begin to show more and more. This is evident from the doctor being able to get him to stand up, plus the oversized head, overlapping toes, the skull which basically crumbled upon examination etc.Betty Gow is likewise stainless. Nope, definitely not stainless. The one time she was seriously questioned she basically tipped her hand and blurted out "I was promised I wouldn't be touched!" Likewise, Lindbergh was overheard threatening her.I think the part that you miss is Lindbergh is smart enough not to do it himself. He was working closely with Dr. Carrel, a noted eugenicist beloved by Nazis around the world for his extreme views. As mentioned, the child's health was certainly not improving, despite treatment. Let's assume that Carrel, a man who made his bread & butter advocating to rid the world of imperfect people, counseled Lindbergh, who could never be seen as having an imperfect offspring, to do just that. If this were the case, it is not unlikely he would rely on a third party to handle the "removal" of the child and stage the kidnapping. Whether this third person was Carrel, or an associate of his, it seems likely they brought on a gang to "do the dirty work" of removing the child and make it look like a kidnapping, which explains why it was too "neat" and why Lindbergh seemed to later believe, during the Curtis affair, that the child was handed out the front door, because he probably knew this was the case. Whether CAL Jr was supposed to die that night or not (I think he likely was), this gang now had possession of the body and Lindbergh became the victim of an extortion attempt by some or all of the hired gang. They basically collected on the ransom mentioned in the note, which was never meant to be actually collected, in exchange for returning the baby's body. Hauptmann had some role in this gang, but there's no evidence to prove he was in Hopewell the night of the kidnapping. You also have to realize Lindbergh was never a grieving father. He seemed happier, by some accounts, when the child was gone. On the various trips to "search" for his son, he played practical jokes, played cards and laughed the entire time. They did little searching. When inspecting his child's remains at the morgue he asked for a "meat slicer" and casually pulled back the gums to inspect the teeth, with all the emotion of a 7th grader dissecting a frog. Lindbergh at the time was the biggest celebrity in the world. The cops could not question his word or go against him in any way. The few who did found themselves off the case, so they chased their tails and looked at everything but the elephant in the room. You said it yourself, CAL was a "a white supremest Nazi eugenist serial adulterer who consorted with mad doctors beloved by Adolf Hitler." Is it so crazy to think that he might not want the stigma of a disabled son? As for JonBenet, I don't think Patsy killed her - but if she wasn't involved there is no plausible reason for her jacket fibers to be on the sticky side of the duct tape or for the comically long ransom note in handwriting that suspiciously matches her own. Ironically, the note mirrors the note in the Lindbergh case, in the sense that it was probably written to misdirect cops from where they should be looking.
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Post by Sherlock on Oct 4, 2022 2:56:20 GMT -5
The assumptive conclusion that the kidnapper(s) must have been tipped off that the child would be in Hopewell on Tuesday evening, time and time again fails to consider the far greater likelihood that they would have simply believed that the Lindberghs lived there full time. Surveillance conducted on the house day or night, during the weekend or even during the week, would have recognized activity in and around the house, as the Whateleys were full time custodians of the property. Hauptmann's circle of influence was essentially worlds apart from that of the Lindberghs, and he would have had no reason to believe other than that they had permanently moved in. Not to mention the fact that intentionally providing this kind of linchpin insider information, had it actually have happened within the context of a faked kidnapping, would have been a surefire means of exposing such a short-sighted plot to police investigators. Hi Joe, How would the extensive surveillance of the Lindbergh home lead anyone to conclude that the family lived there full time? Up to the kidnap date they were there only at weekends. Sherlock
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Post by bernardt on Oct 4, 2022 5:08:18 GMT -5
In 1938 Henry Ford also received a Nazi medal of honor. I will try to attach a photo of the ceremony. Henry Ford was also a consultant during WWII for the making of the fighter planes in the factory at Willow Run between Ypsilanti and Detroit, Michigan. Ford donated the plant and directed the design of the assembly line. Lindbergh was the other consultant; he oversaw the construction of the planes (B-24s). They were the two major consultants to the bomber plant, as it was known to the natives. Lindbergh moved his family to Grosse Point near Detroit to do this work. Ford lived in Dearborn. Photos have appeared on the board of the two of them at the bomber plant. One is shown on the LINKS thread. I am not defending their philosophies at all, but am stating that they did work to defend the US during WWII and did not work to support the Nazi government. Quite the contrary. View AttachmentI am reminded of the table with the "confession of guilt" found in South Plainfield N.J. The message was written in German, though perhaps not someone acquainted with the standard German language, as a parody of a sea chantey admitting to being one of the kidnappers of the Lindbergh baby. The "confession" is signed NSDAP, the initials of the Nazi party in Germany. Lindbergh was awarded the German medal of honor in 1938. Perhaps his political beliefs were being mocked in this confession. Or perhaps the inference is that the kidnapping was motivated by his beliefs.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 4, 2022 6:44:59 GMT -5
My own grandmother was a locally famous writer for a local newspaper, and a kind, loving grandmother and rabid hater of FDR.
But she didn’t hate FDR’s New Deal, she hated him for legalizing booze in 1933 and for getting America in WW2. She’d lost her first fiancé in October 1918, and didn’t want to lose her son to another war.
She lionized CAL. She had dozens of conspiracy books about Pearl Harbor, all blaming FDR and America for it, and none about the Lindbergh kidnapping.
As horrific as the political and racial views of CAL are today, I’m certain in 1932 my own grandmother would have agreed with nearly all of them.
Any birth defects in the Eaglet resulting in disabilities would have been tended to by AML. The thirties conservatives believed in eugenics for others, not themselves. I had a severely cognitively impaired cousin my grandmother doted on as one of her beloved grandchildren.
I was in college when I discovered FDR was a skirt chasing political charlatan who was dead right about Hitler, and CAL and America First was flat out wrong. I loved my grandmother, just the same.
Many famous people were kidnapped for ransom in the Depression, but here we are on a Lindy forum. The Eaglet was a far more famous target than little Jon Benet Ramsey, famous only among Colorado Junior beauty pageant parents, and a still unknown monster.
There is much evidence against BRH, the worst being the ransom money, which could have led to a ladder being framed up by the police.
All the evidence against CAL was he was an eccentric conservative.
But if BRH did the snatch, how long was the drive time both ways, where did he park his Dodge, and how in the hell could he have known the baby was there, and where the baby was?
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Post by Sherlock on Oct 4, 2022 7:58:26 GMT -5
The first call from Hopewell actually came on Monday morning, Feb. 29, from Anne with a message to her mother that the child was sick with a cold and that the Lindberghs would not return to Next Day Hill until the baby was better. The call made on Tuesday morning (March 1) was the second call from Anne who stated that the baby was better but that she (Anne) was coming down with the cold and asking Betty Gow to come to Englewood and help her care for the child. The call on Monday was most likely then reported to the kidnapping gang who could then prepare on Monday afternoon for the snatch on Tuesday evening if the Lindberghs continue to stay in Hopewell. The second call would then be reported as "It's a Go" . The planning had been done "for a year already." The kidnappers probably expected to kidnap the child on a weekend but took advantage of the opportunity for the stayover to complete their purpose. The ladder used was the wrong type, but the kidnappers may have been workers on roofs or painters who were familiar with this type and happeeed to have one available. As you say there was an earlier call on the Monday morning to Next Day Hill but only saying that they would stay over until the child was better. At this point the kid could have improved by Tuesday lunch time and a return to NDH would take place then. Only in the Tuesday call was it made clear that they would stay a further day/night after Anne had consulted her husband. I can't see the vagueness of the Monday call springing the gang into "preparation phase." Too much uncertainty, like planning a bank robbery without knowing the opening hours. As for the plan being prepared "for a year already" we have only the word of a known criminal as a source. I agree that the ladder was unsuitable for the task in hand and happened to be available, in my view as part of the breadcrumb trail to indicate an outside job.
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Post by Sherlock on Oct 4, 2022 8:22:00 GMT -5
Hi Skeptical, Ref your point that"the thirties conservatives believed in eugenics for others, not themselves." There has been earlier discussion on this forum about the effect of the trans continental high altitude flight taken by the Lindberghs when Anne was seven months pregnant with Charlie. No oxygen, fumes, vibration, changes in air pressure. Not surprising that Anne became very ill, by some accounts unconscious, and had to helped off the plane and whisked away for 2 months bed rest until the birth. It was all hushed up. The child's disabilities were more serious than the Lindberghs ever admitted. No recent photos were issued after the kidnap. So CAL had a strong reputation - preserving reason for these disabilities not being revealed to a wider public who might make the link with the irresponsible flight. In these circumstances, given his strong belief in survival of the fittest, the eugenic solution which he advocated for others, may on this occasion have been seen as his only option.
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Post by skeptical on Oct 4, 2022 10:39:03 GMT -5
My grandmother was, during her lifetime, the second most famous person in her rural Missouri county. The most famous was her brother John, known as the Pendergast of Hickory County.
Uncle John was also the wealthiest man in the county, from a lifetime of bootlegging, later legalized liquor selling, prostitution and gambling rackets. My grandmother and I would stand over his grave and she’d tell me how John had every gift any man could dream of, looks, charm, charisma, intelligence, wit and social grace.
But he was the local underworld king because he knew never to break the law except to supply booze, women and gambling. My grandmother despised him, but almost every one else revered John, because he was a famous World War One hero. John reveled in his hero status.
The one and only reason we know Lindbergh’s name is he didn’t get lost on the way to Paris. His solo flight was the one and only great achievement in his long life. All the others were odious.
People like Lindbergh don’t arrange to dispose to their own children.
For as long as CAL lived, he was an alchemist who could trade his name for money, from anybody peddling anything to do with aviation.
Could CAL have secretly tried to hire gangsters to kidnap the Eaglet?
It is possible, but why wouldn’t he be the gala with an ironclad alibi?
Why not at 2 am when discovery would be hours away at morning?
On the face of the crime, not underneath it, it’s more likely:
1. BRH either had an inside tip or got lucky on a Tuesday
2. If he’s alone, he had to bring the ladder, and he could not bring a baby alive back to Anna.
3. Fortune favors the bold. The prosecution had the right man, not all the right details perhaps.
Yet the first investigators believed there was a gang.
The prosecution had to bend facts to fit BRH acting alone, but none more than how in the hell did one man know exactly when and where to snatch the baby and leave in a 1930 Dodge rumbling in and out of Hopewell.
Sit out on the porch on a quiet March evening at Hopewell and see how far away you can hear a car come up the long drive and then leave.
It’s suicidal to attempt it.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Joe on Oct 4, 2022 14:19:46 GMT -5
The assumptive conclusion that the kidnapper(s) must have been tipped off that the child would be in Hopewell on Tuesday evening, time and time again fails to consider the far greater likelihood that they would have simply believed that the Lindberghs lived there full time. Surveillance conducted on the house day or night, during the weekend or even during the week, would have recognized activity in and around the house, as the Whateleys were full time custodians of the property. Hauptmann's circle of influence was essentially worlds apart from that of the Lindberghs, and he would have had no reason to believe other than that they had permanently moved in. Not to mention the fact that intentionally providing this kind of linchpin insider information, had it actually have happened within the context of a faked kidnapping, would have been a surefire means of exposing such a short-sighted plot to police investigators. Hi Joe, How would the extensive surveillance of the Lindbergh home lead anyone to conclude that the family lived there full time? Up to the kidnap date they were there only at weekends. Sherlock Sherlock, I believe that surveillance (I didn’t say “extensive surveillance”) of the house would likely have occurred both during both the week and on weekends, up to and even beyond a four-month period prior to March 1, 1932. With the house essentially habitable at the point the Lindberghs first visited there on the weekend of October 31, 1931, most subsequent weekends were also spent there. The usual practice for the child’s movements involved a Friday or Saturday arrival and return to Next Day Hill on Mondays. For anyone watching the house on weekends, the primary time of interest of course, would have been Charlie's bedtime. Under cover of darkness, coming and going from the area by an outsider would have been less obvious to a local resident, and this would be the critical period to monitor lights being turned on and off. On weekdays, be it day or evening, whoever was watching the house would surely have seen signs of life, as Ollie and Elsie Whateley had both been full time residents prior to the Lindberghs having spent their first weekend there. Deliveries would have been made, tradesmen coming and going, Ollie driving to town, etc. It's unreasonable to believe anyone would have been "camped out" within sight of the house to determine exactly who was there at all times. Hauptmann, in financial straits, was essentially jobless from the time he returned from California, and was actively seeking work during an ever-worsening economic time, while working up his kidnapping plan. I submit he simply took whatever opportunity he could away from any job-seeking activities, with no defined schedule other than his ability to get into the Hopewell area, keeping as low a profile as possible. Watching the house on weekends, most notably at bedtime, would have allowed him to come and go relatively unseen, while mapping out the required routes would have best been accomplished during the day, at the same time allowing him to more effectively ‘blend in’ with any other traffic. He would also likely have had to consider Anna’s work schedule, and it seems reasonable to believe the best time to get away during weekdays without her knowledge, would have been during daylight hours. Recognizing Hauptmann’s socio-economic position in life relative to that of the Lindberghs, no proven or even proposed connection between him and anyone in direct contact with Lindbergh for the purpose of determining their movements and given everything he would have reasonably been to observe during his surveillance, I consider very strongly that Hauptmann simply believed that the Lindberghs were now permanent residents of Hopewell and living at Highfields. I see no evidence to even suggest Hauptmann had any kind of disloyal insider information, ie. the first Tuesday night Charlie was at Highfields, nursery location, defective shutter, unlocked window, etc. He did whatever research and homework he felt was necessary and then put faith in his own abilities and most importantly, his ability to adapt under whatever difficult conditions he probably expected to find. He knew the kidnapping and extortion were both going to be extremely risky, but he was extremely motivated by the prospect of instant wealth and he was simply willing to take the risk. For his brazen efforts, he was rewarded by great fortune, even lucky, as he found less obstacles in his way than expected. But his surplus of luck inevitably ran out.
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Post by trojanusc on Oct 4, 2022 22:44:27 GMT -5
Hi Joe, How would the extensive surveillance of the Lindbergh home lead anyone to conclude that the family lived there full time? Up to the kidnap date they were there only at weekends. Sherlock Sherlock, I believe that surveillance (I didn’t say “extensive surveillance”) of the house would likely have occurred both during both the week and on weekends, up to and even beyond a four-month period prior to March 1, 1932. With the house essentially habitable at the point the Lindberghs first visited there on the weekend of October 31, 1931, most subsequent weekends were also spent there. The usual practice for the child’s movements involved a Friday or Saturday arrival and return to Next Day Hill on Mondays. For anyone watching the house on weekends, the primary time of interest of course, would have been Charlie's bedtime. Under cover of darkness, coming and going from the area by an outsider would have been less obvious to a local resident, and this would be the critical period to monitor lights being turned on and off. On weekdays, be it day or evening, whoever was watching the house would surely have seen signs of life, as Ollie and Elsie Whateley had both been full time residents prior to the Lindberghs having spent their first weekend there. Deliveries would have been made, tradesmen coming and going, Ollie driving to town, etc. It's unreasonable to believe anyone would have been "camped out" within sight of the house to determine exactly who was there at all times. Hauptmann, in financial straits, was essentially jobless from the time he returned from California, and was actively seeking work during an ever-worsening economic time, while working up his kidnapping plan. I submit he simply took whatever opportunity he could away from any job-seeking activities, with no defined schedule other than his ability to get into the Hopewell area, keeping as low a profile as possible. Watching the house on weekends, most notably at bedtime, would have allowed him to come and go relatively unseen, while mapping out the required routes would have best been accomplished during the day, at the same time allowing him to more effectively ‘blend in’ with any other traffic. He would also likely have had to consider Anna’s work schedule, and it seems reasonable to believe the best time to get away during weekdays without her knowledge, would have been during daylight hours. Recognizing Hauptmann’s socio-economic position in life relative to that of the Lindberghs, no proven or even proposed connection between him and anyone in direct contact with Lindbergh for the purpose of determining their movements and given everything he would have reasonably been to observe during his surveillance, I consider very strongly that Hauptmann simply believed that the Lindberghs were now permanent residents of Hopewell and living at Highfields. I see no evidence to even suggest Hauptmann had any kind of disloyal insider information, ie. the first Tuesday night Charlie was at Highfields, nursery location, defective shutter, unlocked window, etc. He did whatever research and homework he felt was necessary and then put faith in his own abilities and most importantly, his ability to adapt under whatever difficult conditions he probably expected to find. He knew the kidnapping and extortion were both going to be extremely risky, but he was extremely motivated by the prospect of instant wealth and he was simply willing to take the risk. For his brazen efforts, he was rewarded by great fortune, even lucky, as he found less obstacles in his way than expected. But his surplus of luck inevitably ran out. Yep seems totally logical that Hauptmann did weekday reconnaissance, where he would have observed the family wasn't home, then did some some weekend observation to realize they were home without making the correlation. Lucky for him none of the snoopy locals saw him. Then he somehow makes his way to Hopewell on the night of the kidnapping, drives ups the driveway, navigates the tiny boardwalk without stepping off it, places the ladder up in one felt swoop (only one set of impressions), then climbs it at an hour while the entire family is up/awake, without so much as stepping off the boardwalk to double check the baby is in the room and nobody else is present. Then he scales the ladder, catapults himself over a chest of drawers + suitcase without disturbing the stein or tinker toys or alerting anyone downstairs, removes the baby without making a sound, wipes down the entire nursery for prints, then rather than simply push the chest + suitcase out of the way he decides to leap over it again (while still not disturbing the array of objects on top), then scale down the ladder. Upon exiting his car is magically moved to where he takes an alternate exit route to the service road, before leaving the ladder, despite being careful enough to wear gloves and wipe the nursery down. Oh and he has a fake set of shoes to create a second set of prints as a ruse. Oh and let's not forget he probably wore a shoe size that didn't match the prints. Then he also somehow managed to get back in time to pick his wife up in the bakery where Anna and Fredericksen saw him. Anna wouldn't lie for him in other places, so no reason for her to lie here. Yep this all seems totally logical. The hoops lone wolf believers must logically jump through is astounding.
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