Besides the crock in the garage floor, the packets of money behind a board, the shellac can with money and the drilled out board with rolled money and the loaded lilput pistol, wasn't there another 1 gallon can found by Sgt Wallace near the garage that had been modified ( cut open) just like the shellac can?
I am on my way out the door now but will try to find out for you. I don't recall anything about this however so if you have an idea where you read about this it might assist me in finding it in the source material.
Kevin, I think this is the reference you're looking for. It comes at the tail end of Sgt. John Wallace's report of September 20, 1934. Interesting here that Wallace kept his report "running" to reflect the day he first became involved in the investigation.
I'm trying to keep up with the flow of topics but it's been difficult lately getting back on all. This one I knew exactly where to put my finger on.
On September 22nd at 9:40 A.M. arrived at 1279 East 222ns Street and began a search of Hauptman's garage, accompanied by Detective Petrosino for any personal belongings of Isidor Fisch that may be located or stored in the garage. Found several garments that were strewn about the garage that may have been the property of Isidore Fisch and placed them in a travelling bag and later brought them to the Bronx Court House. After finishing the search of the garage I searched about the field on the north side of the garage and found a gallon can with the trade mark "Seacraft Motor Oil" with the side of the can cut in a similar way as that of the can found which contained 12 packages of the Lindbergh ransom bills. Brought this can into the Hauptmann garage and left same for safe keeping in case the authorities requested same (the garage was under the protection of uniformed police). On returning to the Court House advised Lieutenanat Keaten of the can found in the lot. After completing the search of the garage and ground surrounding the garage, continued the search of the garage and ground surrounding the garage, continued to the home of Hauptmann and assisted other investigators, Detectives William Wallace, Dunn, Murphy, Sergeants Kelly and Zapolsky and Detective Petrosino.
I've never seen a further reference in the form of a follow up to this discovery. It's unfortunate then that Wallace never commented on the condition of the can's interior and whether there was an oily residue inside. He says the can was cut open on the side, which is not exactly the same way the Erco can was cut open. That can was cut open on the top, but again it would have been interesting to know the way it was cut open, either by knife or other means for comparison with the Erco can. The fact that the motor oil can was cut open though, does seem to suggest it may have been originally earmarked as a storage container.
In general, an empty oil can, would have made a poor choice, as the oily residue would have to be thoroughly washed out with solvent prior to use and whatever was subsequently stored in that container would then take on the odor of whatever residue remained, oil or solvent, which in those days, was most likely turpentine or mineral spirits. Perhaps the oil can was evaluated for use after cutting it open, and then discarded, because it would take too much work to clean it out properly.
The extremely fast drying nature of shellac would have made the Erco can a much better choice. Once the shellac on the inside surfaces of the can had dried, it would then be safe to put the money inside with no concern over lingering odor.
Thanks Joe, I agree about the suitability of an oil can but I would have liked to see the similarity in cutting the can open. Of course I would also like to see that crock as well. Interesting that an innocent man would go to such lengths to conceal things.
Here's different report from Wallace which has another account of this can's discovery:
At 9:40A.M. arrived at 1279 East 222nd St. & began search of Hauptmann's Garage in search of some tools & personal belongings of Isadore Fisch & bring same to Court House. Accompanied in the Garage by Det. Jas. Petronsini, of N.Y.C. Police & after searching through the garage, scouted about the lot on the north side of Garage & in the brush bound another Gallon Can, Seacraft Motor Oil with the side cut open like the one used by Hauptmann in hiding the money, this can placed in the garage which was being protected by uniform police, & on return to Court House advised Lieut. Keaton of the can.
Very similar to the reference Joe found....
Last Edit: Mar 20, 2006 20:57:37 GMT -5 by Michael
I really don't think much of it Kevin. In Fisher's The Ghosts of Hopewell he completely loses his mind swirling in speculation concerning it (begin page 155).
Fisher's description concerning the methods of constructing these reports is very accurate. Fisher is also correct this bottle could have been purchased anytime after 1-34. However, to say it suggests it was meant for another kidnapping is wild conjecture. Also, to suggest it was some sort of blockbuster evidence against Hauptmann is utterly ridiculous and clearly shows me that Fisher is doing everything he can to back up the conclusions made within his first book.
Fisher claims Hauptmann's finances were in bad shape with at least $14,620 in his garage. Fisher also claims this bottle was "hidden" but no where in the report he cites does it say this. Additionally, Fisher seems to ignore the fact this was a 3-ounce bottle but only contained 2-ounces when found....so where did the other 1-ounce go? Are we to believe Hauptmann had already used it to kidnap someone?
If not, why didn't Hauptmann do as planned? The owner of the store claimed the label was the type that were quickly used up when they first took over the store in 1-34.
Back in Highfields on 3-1-32 no one remembered the smell of ether in the nursery.... Fisher forgot to mention this fact too.
Most likely this was just another small purchase to clean hot money and nothing more. Ether had several purposes - obviously someone had already found one and used 1-ounce by the time it was found in Hauptmann's garage.
"Most likely this was just another small purchase to clean hot money and nothing more. Ether had several purposes - obviously someone had already found one and used 1-ounce by the time it was found in Hauptmann's garage."
What other purposes would Hauptmann have for Diethyl ether other than an anestheia? I believe it is volitile and can be explosive if peroxides form. Why keep it around? Wouldn't it have been safer to buy some toothpaste if money laundering was the objective?
We really don't know it was Diethyl Ether, but we assume it. Whether it was or not its understandable that you don't use it because today is different then back then. How many people can walk into a store and buy this as it was back then? As I read about this stuff, there were groups of people who claimed it was safer to get "drunk" on ether then to drink alcohol.
It was a different time and its hard to judge these things by todays standards.
Someone once said liquid ether could not be used as starting fluid but that's incorrect.
Most likely this bottle was purchased very near the month of January '34. Hauptmann had at the very least $14800 in his possession unless you believe he hasn't discovered it yet. If a kidnapping was planned, either he changed his mind or he bought the ether at almost 8 months prior? Does this make any sense whatsoever? Why does he still have it after all of this time? Why did he apparently use 1 ounce?
How do you think its a piece of the puzzle? I am asking because maybe you see something I don't.
Like you, I see another hand at work, or should I say brain, in this crime. I see missing tools, primary tools. I see a bottle of ether that has no place in a garage. I see evidence of a second location. I see Hauptmann enjoying his wealth , but knowing the "can" will eventually run dry. Then what, back to work clothes? They have not been caught and the trail is cold ( from their point of view) so why not an encore?
I think it's premature to discount the significance of the ether found in Hauptmann's garage. It's first unfortunate that no one noticed this in the report until 60 odd years later, as it would certainly be interesting to have heard Hauptmann's explanation. I put this discovery in the same league as the crock found under the floorboards, which we know Hauptmann had no good explanation for.
Of the above possible uses, and considering this was a small quantity of pharmaceutical grade ether, it's a safe bet to discard any industrial-type applications outright. I would also tend to rule out the use of such a refined grade of diethyl ether for use in starting a damp engine, when commercial grade ether (with established levels of impurities) was available for this purpose. We also know there were a number of other things in Hauptmann's garage that had little to do with the maintenance of his car.
I find it rather compelling that this quantity and purity of ether was purchased either for anaesthesia or recreational drug use. Ether has a strong odour but is also extremely volatile, and it would dissipate quickly in a ventilated room. I don't discount the possibility the baby was rendered unconscious before being removed from the nursery, given that the French window was left open and there was an electric heater in use. Ether was widely used as a recreational drug in the 19th and early 20th centuries, (especially during Prohibition) as it apparently does not induce the type of hangover common with alcohol consumption. Beer was also sometimes spiked with ether to give it a "lift."
Fisher's speculation may or may not be germane, but I don't discard it entirely. My strongest feelings actually tend towards the possibility that general use of mood-altering substances might well be associated with the extreme level of nerve and daring required to negotiate much of what happened in this case, from the bizarre reality of the kidnapping itself, ongoing ransom negotiations, meeting in cemeteries, lightly clad CJ on a cold night and spending of the ransom money so openly and brazenly.
I don't have the actual reference to the followup with pharmacist Max Schaffer, but I believe he stated that he recognized the man who purchased the ether in January of 1934, later on the street. The man had told Schaffer at the time of purchase that he was a dentist but then denied this, saying he was a cobbler.
Michael, do you have the original Geraghty report and any further discussion of whatever follow up then occurred with the pharmacist? I understand he died shortly afterwards being interviewed about the label specifics to pinpoint the date of sale. Was there a followup report that details any of this? If you don't I can check with Mark at the museum.
Post by rick62 member on Mar 24, 2006 12:14:14 GMT -5
My first concern in this debate would be what volatiles would remain detectible in the Nursery after Charlie turns up "missing"? Someone has opined before that if some other anesthestic, or paragoric, or whatever Wendel claimed he used in his confession, were present in the Nursery then the odor would remain there long enough to be detercted by Gow, Whateley, CAL or Anne? Does this hold true for Di-ethyl ether as well? Also, if enough of any of these crude chemicals were involved, maybe thats what did Charlie in? Anesthesia should not be attempted by amatures/.
I have that report Joe. Fisher jumps to conclusions here. Maybe no other Researcher saw or read this report but I can assure you that the Authorities certainly did.
My "take" is that Schaffer is mistaken as to who bought it. He seems to associate its purchase with a Dentist and then approaches who he thought was the Dentist who turned out to be a shoe cobbler. Its understandable (for me) because I've met people in one place but thought when I ran into them again I met them elsewhere. In fact, the last time I saw Dr. Gardner give a talk I saw someone I graduated College with who thought I had graduated high school with him.
Anyway, I haven't found any follow-up to this report (so far).
A few drops of liquid ether on a rag placed over the air intake would do the trick to start a cold car. I see no other place for this bottle to be stored if one happens to have it. Where else does anyone suggest?
It just doesn't make sense to me to suppose Hauptmann was going to kidnap someone else with about $15,000 large in his possession, buying this product about 8 months before the intended crime (?), and using 1 ounce of it for a purpose not connected with its intended use.
If we can come up with some sort of explanations for these circumstances to fit then I'll be more open to the possibility.
Yes, Fisher might be a bit overzealous here in his treatment of the new evidence; that remains to be seen. At the same time, Michael, I think you've done a full rebound off his own theory, and through some information that seems a bit distracting to it's discovery and the original transaction, attempted to build a kind of misty buffer between Hauptmann and that bottle of ether. No disrespect intended, I'm just pointing out what I see unfolding here and stressing objectivity. This ether discovery is far too important to let slip away without some real scrutiny.
A lot would depend on the actual person-to-person dynamics of the sale, and if the purchase seemed legit to Schaffer at the time. There were many people buying ether at the time with falsely stated intent, so I'm really not surprised at his stated level of recall. Pharmacists, like doctors, are trained to observe a customer's motivations and become very astute as people watchers.
The fact remains, and it's a major one. This specific container of ether, of a totally inappropriate grade for starting cold engines, identified to having been sold at a very specific time due to it's specific labelling, ends up in Hauptmann's garage, and not the office of a professional who would have legitimate need for this grade of ether.
The implication I see here is that a purified grade of ether was purchased or obtained under false pretenses, far removed from conditions that could be associated with the casual, innocent purchase of a can of commercial grade ether from a hardware store.
And the question remains: What was the ether's true intended use?
Joe--its hard to keep an open mind on the ether if it was purchased in 1934 and no ether was detected in Charlies nursery two years earlier. The uses of ether back then are too numerous. BUT, on a similar note, didnt some Pharmacist in the Hopewell or Princeton area report that a "woman" came in and purchased a legal anesthisia on the nite of March 1st 1932 but the woman was never found? thats all my mind can recall at this time? Wheres Steve when we need him?
Rick, I don't make any hard and fast connection at this point to Hauptmann's ether and whatever likelihood an anaesthetic was used in the nursery two and a half years earlier. The issues and questions I see here relate to a pharmaceutical grade product being stored in Hauptmann's garage, under what pretenses it was purchased from pharmacist Max Schaffer, and what was the intended use.
Here is information on the mystery woman's purchase of ether from a pharmacy in Pennington on the night of March 1. I've seen two varied accounts, (only one of which I can put my hand on now) given by owner Louis Schickraut.
"The night of the kidnapping, a woman came into my drug store in Pennington and bought some ether, and she was in a dark color car. I saw her, and she was a tall, thin, dark-complexioned woman. I didn't see the car. But one of the fellas in the store, a fella who used to come in nights and help me, he walked out and he saw the car. I remember him taking the license number, but if it was state or out of state, I don't know. I don't remember the details."
"You see, in those days you could sell ether without the register or an address. She must have been well put, because she asked for ether. Chloroform you had to register, see, but ether you didn't. But I asked her what she was going to use if for, and she said she was going to clean some gloves, which is possible, but hardly probable."
Now Schickraut does mention in this Princeton Recollector account (from an interview he gave in 1977) that "people would come in for ether to help start cars," although he doesn't mention if this was for emergency situations or day to day use. He also claimed that reporters used alcohol for starting cold engines.
According to the article, there was a flurry of activity around Schickraut's drug store right after the kidnapping.
"Some fellas were hanging around the store and they knew what ether was, and they put the word around that a woman had bought ether than night. And the next thing you know, next day, some Jersey City policemen came in - detectives, two of them. I don't know who was governor then, but Jersey City took over the investigation from the start. So they came in to see me several times; never brought pictures or anything.
And then later on Hoffman got in as governor, and he wanted me to identify some woman, but I couldn't identify her 'cause she was nowhere near like the woman I saw. I never saw a photograph of Mrs. Hauptmann.
And then there was all kinds of reporters from all over the country come in. Even Floyd Gibbins was in and interviewed me. It was quite thrilling really at one time; then it got to be a nuisance. Everybody came into the store wanting to know about it, so I stopped talking."
I've got a whole file on Schildkraut if anyone is interested....
He wasn't lying about being interviewed multiple times. His first interview came when Troopers Cain, Young, and DeGaetano interviewed him. Schildkraut must be remembering Deputy Chief Brex of the Jersey City Police who accompanied the Troopers at the time of their interview.
As most know - I am just fascinated by the inner workings of the Hoffman Investigations. I mention this because Det. Mustoe of the Monmouth County Prosecutors office was among those who would interview Schildkraut. Mustoe was "loaned" to the Gov. once he began his "secret re-investigation" into this crime.
Does anyone recall if Betty Gow was reported to have stopped into a Pharmacy as well on her journey from Next Day Hill to Highfields on 1 March 32 to babysit Charlie. You will all recall that Anne was too sick and exhausted to care any longer for a 2 year olde, but never too sick to be out in the windy rain throwing pebbles at Charlies nursery window in the exact location of the ladder marks?
Michael: Talked to him a couple of months ago.
Feb 11, 2020 18:22:20 GMT -5
jack7: Heey Michael - seen Dave around?
Feb 21, 2020 11:55:55 GMT -5
Michael: Talked to him a couple of months ago.
Feb 22, 2020 10:30:59 GMT -5
Laurence24: Bonjour à tous les membres,et merci d'avoir crée ce forum. Je me présente à vous, mon prénom est mon pseudo. Je suis de France. Pendant mon sommeil,John Edgar Hoover m'a montré son vécu mais également une infinie partie d'indices concernant le nom du forum
Mar 3, 2020 12:02:53 GMT -5
Michael: Bienvenue Laurence. Allez-y et postez ce qu'il vous a dit - ça a l'air intéressant ...
Mar 3, 2020 12:26:06 GMT -5
stella7: Sorry for the short notice but there’s a documentary on Anne Morrow Lindbergh on at 8:30 tonight. Channel 23 New Jersey Public Television
Mar 11, 2020 19:24:43 GMT -5
wolfman666: the half hour one made in 2017? it was very good
Mar 14, 2020 9:23:46 GMT -5
Laurence24: Bonjour Mickael,ainsi que tous les autres membres de ce forum..
Mar 20, 2020 7:48:19 GMT -5
Laurence24: Et merci de m'avoir acceptée chaleureusement dans votre forum..
Mar 20, 2020 7:50:48 GMT -5
Michael: Je vais consulter le site. N'hésitez pas à publier ou à créer un fil de discussion sur le babillard à ce sujet. Vous pouvez également y poster un lien car je crains que beaucoup ne lisent pas cette shoutbox.
Mar 20, 2020 9:56:06 GMT -5
Laurence24: Moi qui comprend pas l'anglais, j'ai été surprise de sa première visite dans mon rêve, quand j'ai cherchée par mots clés, et que j'ai découvert qui il était ou ou il avait vécu, je me suis dis, wouah !! dans l'au delà, ils peuvent faire beaucoup de choses
Mar 20, 2020 10:41:07 GMT -5
Laurence24: Bonjour et merci à vous Michaël,je viens de suivre votre conseil..
Apr 29, 2020 7:52:33 GMT -5